Building around a big man scorer

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

The best teams have good players at multiple positions. You left out the good players some of those playoff teams have at PF and The Spurs have Pau coming off the bench. There is no hard and fast blueprint to be a contender except have talent and all the other stuff you need to win like some good culture and good coaching.

The Spurs are such an anomaly in so many ways. It's a testament to the culture that Pop and Co. have created.

David Lee and Dwayne Dedmon have started in the playoffs. Many might remember that Lee was an afterthought in GSW after being replaced with Draymond Green... and then resurfacing from the deep recesses of the bench to play a pivotal bench role in the 2015 Finals. Anybody remember where he was last season? I certainly didn't...

He split time coming off the bench (or staying on it) in Dallas and Boston. He's known as a horrific defender. He signed a $1.6M deal with the Spurs. Dedmon was a part-time starter for the woeful Magic. He signed a $2.9M deal with the Spurs.

The Spurs also have Jonathon Simmons from the D League making $875k. 30th pick Kyle Anderson. And D Leaguer Davis Bertans making $543k. All have started this season and are playing in the playoff rotation.

Meanwhile, Minnesota has only Bjelica in the rotation who wasn't drafted in the 1st round. He went 35th way back in 2010. The other part of the NBA (after finding your stars) is finding guys who can fit in to a culture/team/system for cheap... and who offer unexpected value.

Minnesota has failed regularly with this. Who was the last surprise guy to make a real difference and offer incredible value?

Pekovic?

Yes, Pekovic. Of course, if we don't shoot ourselves in the foot with incompetence, the specter of terrible luck always lurks right around the corner. That is certainly the case with Pek, who when healthy and fit, was a really good player.

I've said it a bunch, but our failure in unearthing and developing late draft picks, undrafted free agents, and getting the most out of cheap veterans is just as significant of a story line as our failure with lottery picks over the years.

It should also be said that Pop almost never starts his 5 best players and perhaps not even his 4 best players. He's a master at getting solid minutes from the Oberto's, Elsons, Blairs, and Dedmons of the world. Heck, I would argue that Patty Mills is their best point guard and Manu might still be their best SG. Both come off the bench.

[Monster]

The best teams have good players at multiple positions. You left out the good players some of those playoff teams have at PF and The Spurs have Pau coming off the bench. There is no hard and fast blueprint to be a contender except have talent and all the other stuff you need to win like some good culture and good coaching.

The Spurs are such an anomaly in so many ways. It's a testament to the culture that Pop and Co. have created.

David Lee and Dwayne Dedmon have started in the playoffs. Many might remember that Lee was an afterthought in GSW after being replaced with Draymond Green... and then resurfacing from the deep recesses of the bench to play a pivotal bench role in the 2015 Finals. Anybody remember where he was last season? I certainly didn't...

He split time coming off the bench (or staying on it) in Dallas and Boston. He's known as a horrific defender. He signed a $1.6M deal with the Spurs. Dedmon was a part-time starter for the woeful Magic. He signed a $2.9M deal with the Spurs.

The Spurs also have Jonathon Simmons from the D League making $875k. 30th pick Kyle Anderson. And D Leaguer Davis Bertans making $543k. All have started this season and are playing in the playoff rotation.

Meanwhile, Minnesota has only Bjelica in the rotation who wasn't drafted in the 1st round. He went 35th way back in 2010. The other part of the NBA (after finding your stars) is finding guys who can fit in to a culture/team/system for cheap... and who offer unexpected value.

Minnesota has failed regularly with this. Who was the last surprise guy to make a real difference and offer incredible value?

Pekovic?

Yes, Pekovic. Of course, if we don't shoot ourselves in the foot with incompetence, the specter of terrible luck always lurks right around the corner. That is certainly the case with Pek, who when healthy and fit, was a really good player.

I've said it a bunch, but our failure in unearthing and developing late draft picks, undrafted free agents, and getting the most out of cheap veterans is just as significant of a story line as our failure with lottery picks over the years.

It should also be said that Pop almost never starts his 5 best players and perhaps not even his 4 best players. He's a master at getting solid minutes from the Oberto's, Elsons, Blairs, and Dedmons of the world. Heck, I would argue that Patty Mills is their best point guard and Manu might still be their best SG. Both come off the bench.

I agree with all of this but part of the failure is having all these different coaches and people running the franchise the last few years. It's just so much more difficult to bring in the right guys when a bunch of your guys already don't know what the hell they are doing. The Spurs have had that d-league team for years and that's helped. We have to expect much better maybe not Spurs level but much better or like Q said and I have said we are screwed.

[Monster]

Really wish we had gotten Nurkic before Portland stole him from Denver. His size, touch around the rim and ability to step back and fascilitate a pass to open players is incredible. What a trade by Portland on him.

What a dumb trade by Denver. They literally dug their own grave on that trade. It's one of the few things I agree with Khansy on. Their GM should have been fired for that deal. And as usual, it's another team in the West that benefits from it......

By most reports, he needed to go. They chose Jokic. Nurkic pouted.

To send him to a WC team that ended up knocking them out of the playoffs though?

Ouch.

Yeah the thing I still don't understand is why they had to give up a 1st round pick in that deal. Plumblee was a nice get for them in a lot of ways but...they already have bigs and so it was like they paid to trade Nurkic and to pony up a bunch of cash for Plumblee this summer even if RFA keeps the price down. It's hard to fault them for dealing him it's just I don't get why they did what they did. Did they do better than what Philly got for Noel?

[AbeVigodaLive]

The best teams have good players at multiple positions. You left out the good players some of those playoff teams have at PF and The Spurs have Pau coming off the bench. There is no hard and fast blueprint to be a contender except have talent and all the other stuff you need to win like some good culture and good coaching.

The Spurs are such an anomaly in so many ways. It's a testament to the culture that Pop and Co. have created.

David Lee and Dwayne Dedmon have started in the playoffs. Many might remember that Lee was an afterthought in GSW after being replaced with Draymond Green... and then resurfacing from the deep recesses of the bench to play a pivotal bench role in the 2015 Finals. Anybody remember where he was last season? I certainly didn't...

He split time coming off the bench (or staying on it) in Dallas and Boston. He's known as a horrific defender. He signed a $1.6M deal with the Spurs. Dedmon was a part-time starter for the woeful Magic. He signed a $2.9M deal with the Spurs.

The Spurs also have Jonathon Simmons from the D League making $875k. 30th pick Kyle Anderson. And D Leaguer Davis Bertans making $543k. All have started this season and are playing in the playoff rotation.

Meanwhile, Minnesota has only Bjelica in the rotation who wasn't drafted in the 1st round. He went 35th way back in 2010. The other part of the NBA (after finding your stars) is finding guys who can fit in to a culture/team/system for cheap... and who offer unexpected value.

Minnesota has failed regularly with this. Who was the last surprise guy to make a real difference and offer incredible value?

Pekovic?

Yes, Pekovic. Of course, if we don't shoot ourselves in the foot with incompetence, the specter of terrible luck always lurks right around the corner. That is certainly the case with Pek, who when healthy and fit, was a really good player.

I've said it a bunch, but our failure in unearthing and developing late draft picks, undrafted free agents, and getting the most out of cheap veterans is just as significant of a story line as our failure with lottery picks over the years.

It should also be said that Pop almost never starts his 5 best players and perhaps not even his 4 best players. He's a master at getting solid minutes from the Oberto's, Elsons, Blairs, and Dedmons of the world. Heck, I would argue that Patty Mills is their best point guard and Manu might still be their best SG. Both come off the bench.

For what it's worth... Manu was 0 - 15 the first 4 games of the Memphis series.

He exploded for 14 points combined over the final two games though.

I think this is going to be one of those seasons where people wonder "How the F did that Spurs team win 61 games?" Meanwhile, the Timberwolves haven't won even 41 games in 13 years with the likes of Kevin Garnett, Kevin Love, Pekovic, KAT, Wiggins, Rubio, et al.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

The Spurs are a rich man's version of Memphis. All those guys play defense. And if they aren't naturally good defenders, they still do their best because of the uniform they are wearing. It's the culture they built. Offensively, Pop totally flexes to the talent he has. This year we are seeing a lot more Kawhi in isolation.

[AbeVigodaLive]

The Spurs are a rich man's version of Memphis. All those guys play defense. And if they aren't naturally good defenders, they still do their best because of the uniform they are wearing. It's the culture they built. Offensively, Pop totally flexes to the talent he has. This year we are seeing a lot more Kawhi in isolation.

The Kawhi in isolation is going to be a running theme in the 2nd round... and he'll have to be a 30+ ppg (or more) scorer to make the WCF.

Speaking of culture though... I heard a podcast with Spoelstra and he kept mentioning it. He even admitted that others might scoff at the "Miami culture" but as long as he and Riley believe in it and they seek stars to buy in to it... it's legit. It got me thinking about its importance and more importantly, what it means exactly.

I guess in the end, even if I don't know exactly what it is... I know the Wolves don't have that identity or culture of success for new guys to adopt. That makes it interesting as KAT and Wiggins improve... they're in large part the ones who will be creating the team's identify/culture moving forward.

Thus far... it's not one built on determination and grit and defense. But winning sure makes us think differently about that stuff. So we'll see what develops.

[Monster]

The Spurs are a rich man's version of Memphis. All those guys play defense. And if they aren't naturally good defenders, they still do their best because of the uniform they are wearing. It's the culture they built. Offensively, Pop totally flexes to the talent he has. This year we are seeing a lot more Kawhi in isolation.

The Kawhi in isolation is going to be a running theme in the 2nd round... and he'll have to be a 30+ ppg (or more) scorer to make the WCF.

Speaking of culture though... I heard a podcast with Spoelstra and he kept mentioning it. He even admitted that others might scoff at the "Miami culture" but as long as he and Riley believe in it and they seek stars to buy in to it... it's legit. It got me thinking about its importance and more importantly, what it means exactly.

I guess in the end, even if I don't know exactly what it is... I know the Wolves don't have that identity or culture of success for new guys to adopt. That makes it interesting as KAT and Wiggins improve... they're in large part the ones who will be creating the team's identify/culture moving forward.

Thus far... it's not one built on determination and grit and defense. But winning sure makes us think differently about that stuff. So we'll see what develops.

I was skeptical about Spolstra early when he was coaching/along for the ride with the big 3 but after a couple years it was clear to me he was at the very least a good coach at managing a championship roster and now it looks like the guy is an elite head coach that can do pretty much everything and he overachieved this year while losing his top assistant in Fizdale.

Your point about Wiggins and Towns being guys that have a hand in being part of the culture is a good one. Those guys are so young it's a great opportunity and a lot of expect. I was thinking the other day about how I think Lavine gets left out of this discussion but I see him POSSIBLY having a significant role. Why? He seems very popular and a positive guy multiple reports say he is everyone's pal. I could see him being sort of a personality that sorta ends up being the hub of the team in that everyone has a connection to him. Towns and his teachers pet and talking all the time could grate on people and Wiggins is not outspoken. Lavine is more of an awe shucks type but when he talks basketball he actually sounds reasonably intelligent. He works hard and is confident but doesn't come off like a dick. Look back at how he treats the slam dunk contest. He gave Gordon a lot of well deserved love etc. I've probably written too much about this idea here but I wanted to explain my thought on Lavine. It's weird I think I like the kid more than the other of the young 3 just as a guy and for all his teachers pet stuff I do think Towms probably is genuine.

[Lipoli390]

Really wish we had gotten Nurkic before Portland stole him from Denver. His size, touch around the rim and ability to step back and fascilitate a pass to open players is incredible. What a trade by Portland on him.

What a dumb trade by Denver. They literally dug their own grave on that trade. It's one of the few things I agree with Khansy on. Their GM should have been fired for that deal. And as usual, it's another team in the West that benefits from it......

By most reports, he needed to go. They chose Jokic. Nurkic pouted.

To send him to a WC team that ended up knocking them out of the playoffs though?

Ouch.

That's why my rule of thumb is to never trade a player you value to a team in your conference. And that's why, if I were looking at trading our 1st round pick or one of our core young players, I'd look exclusively at Eastern Conference teams.

[Lipoli390]

Geek -- Thanks for starting this thread with such a thought-provoking post. I have a couple thoughts.

First, I agree with those who've said there's no one model. Instead, it's the team's overall talent level, blend of talent, depth and coaching that matter. The Spurs best player by far is their big SF, Leonard. Their PF Aldridge is, in my view, their second best player. For years their best player was their PF/C, Tim Duncan. Parker used to be their second best player and has played fairly well in the playoffs, but he's a shell of his former self. Irving is one of Cleveland's core three, but their big SF LeBron is clearly the man on that team. Hill's definitely a very important part of Utah's success. But Hayward is clearly the Jazz best player overall. He and Joe Johnson have clearly been the best/key players for the Jazz in the playoffs. It's arguable as to whether the Lowry or DeRozan is Toronto's key/best player. Thomas, Jon Wall, James Harden and Chris Paul as PGs are clearly the keys to their respective teams, but they're all surrounded by a lot of talent at other positions. Looking historically, the championship Bulls were built around the SG and SF positions (Jordan and Pippen) with their PG the least important position while the last championship Rockets team was built around a Center, Hakeem just as the Spurs were built around Duncan and before him the Admiral. The list goes on. So while it's fair to characterize today's NBA as very point-guard driven, that model isn't the exclusive model of success either today or historically. And there are examples of championship teams built around a C or PF as the best or second best player on the team, although admittedly fewer of those expecially recently.

Second, I think KAT is a uniquely gifted big man who can be the centerpiece of a championshiop contending Wolves team. He's the second best three-point shooter on our team after Zach and I think he can still improve significantly in that area and take more three pointers. And let's not forget that he won the NBA skills competition at last year's all-star festivities. He's a very good passer and he's actually an excellent ballhandler who is deceptively quick with the ball. He has an already extensive and still expanding offensive arsenal, including a jump hook, turn-around short range jumper and pretty reliable three. I agree with Q and others who believe he'd be better paired with an inside defensive power player like D'Andre Jordan, which would free him up to move away from the basket more often and expand his offensive game. I happen to believe that Thibs needs to move away from his single-minded insistence that Wiggins become his go-to guy and consider running the offense more through KAT as shooter, ball-handler and distributor.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Really wish we had gotten Nurkic before Portland stole him from Denver. His size, touch around the rim and ability to step back and fascilitate a pass to open players is incredible. What a trade by Portland on him.

What a dumb trade by Denver. They literally dug their own grave on that trade. It's one of the few things I agree with Khansy on. Their GM should have been fired for that deal. And as usual, it's another team in the West that benefits from it......

By most reports, he needed to go. They chose Jokic. Nurkic pouted.

To send him to a WC team that ended up knocking them out of the playoffs though?

Ouch.

That's why my rule of thumb is to never trade a player you value to a team in your conference. And that's why, if I were looking at trading our 1st round pick or one of our core young players, I'd look exclusively at Eastern Conference teams.

While I'd agree if the Wolves were already a playoff team... they have so far to go just to make the playoffs... and even further to go to be a good playoff team... I'd prefer to do whatever it takes to get the Wolves better. Who cares about other teams.

I look at it like a 60-loss team drafting for need in the lottery instead of just choosing the best talent.