Minnesota Sports Forum

It's up in the air for me. If IT can play close to what he was then Cleveland wins this in a landslide getting a depth wing behind Lebron which was their weakest position while getting a similar replacement for Kyrie and a really good draft pick. If IT doesn't get close to what he was then Boston wins this in a landslide.

I vote for our Wolves... It just sounds good to hear the Wolves and win in the same sentence!

Interesting discussion.

I think the trade works for both teams over the long term. A long-term win-win. Boston gets an elite 25-year old PG who can be their main guy going forward as they're younger guys develop. Cleveland gets an unprotected likely high lottery pick next season, an expiring contract in Thomas and a very valuable role player or trade asset in Crowder. Then there's the young Euro center.

Short term, I think Boston wins the deal because I'm convinced that IT's hip issue will be a problem for him and that he won't be the same player he's been. If I'm wrong about IT's hip, then I think it's also a short-term win-win.

I voted Cavs win, but there have been some interesting points made in this thread.

Here's some things that I've also considered. What were Thomas and Crowder before Brad Stevens and the Celtics? Will the be the same players in a different system? If they will be and Thomas is healthy then the Cavs are a better team next year.

My viewpoint may be skewed because I didn't think the Cavs would get this much for Irving. And since they got more than I was expecting my vote may have been swayed into thinking they robbed the Celtics.

The best part of the trade for the Cavs is that draft pick. They'll need it especially when James leaves and they'll need to rebuild.

Boston wins this trade. Taylor and Gilbert seem to be in competition for incompetency. Cleveland is looking at long drought once Lebron leaves. If Kyrie is overrated it is only slightly. Easily still a top 15 player.

The bigger Wolves angle in this trade is that Thibs seems to value Wiggins above Kyrie. Fascinating insight in Thibs evaluation of the player Andrew is and will develop into.

thedoper wrote:Boston wins this trade. Taylor and Gilbert seem to be in competition for incompetency. Cleveland is looking at long drought once Lebron leaves. If Kyrie is overrated it is only slightly. Easily still a top 15 player.

The bigger Wolves angle in this trade is that Thibs seems to value Wiggins above Kyrie. Fascinating insight in Thibs evaluation of the player Andrew is and will develop into.

Doper - I agree with you on Gilbert's incompetency. But LeBron has put the Cavs in a tough position. He's forced the organization to go all in on him -- giving him the head coach he wanted and capping out to surround him with the players he wanted. But he refuses to commit beyond his current contract while at the same time not indicating his intent to leave. Then you think back to how LeBron left the Cavs previously -- with a big public showing and absolutely no warning to the "home-town" team that drafted him. Then he left the Heat without any warning or hint, which pissed off Pat Riley -- I'm fine with that, by the way :) I read an article recently that most young NBA players consider LeBron the best player in the NBA but very few would want to be on his team. Seems strange, but that's what I read. So I'll cut Gilbert some slack on this.

But to your bigger point, I generally agree with you on Gilbert's incompetency and that Boston probably came out ahead on this deal. I also agree with you that it's interesting Thibs appears to value Wiggins more than Kyrie. I'd love to have a private one-on-one discussion with Thibs to explore that further. The fact that Thibs seems to value Wiggins so highly (more than just declining to offer him for Kyrie) is what keeps me optimistic that, in spite of what I've seen, Wiggins will become far more than just a high-volume 20+ point per game relatively inefficient scorer.

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:Boston wins this trade. Taylor and Gilbert seem to be in competition for incompetency. Cleveland is looking at long drought once Lebron leaves. If Kyrie is overrated it is only slightly. Easily still a top 15 player.

The bigger Wolves angle in this trade is that Thibs seems to value Wiggins above Kyrie. Fascinating insight in Thibs evaluation of the player Andrew is and will develop into.

Doper - I agree with you on Gilbert's incompetency. But LeBron has put the Cavs in a tough position. He's forced the organization to go all in on him -- giving him the head coach he wanted and capping out to surround him with the players he wanted. But he refuses to commit beyond his current contract while at the same time not indicating his intent to leave. Then you think back to how LeBron left the Cavs previously -- with a big public showing and absolutely no warning to the "home-town" team that drafted him. Then he left the Heat without any warning or hint, which pissed off Pat Riley -- I'm fine with that, by the way :) I read an article recently that most young NBA players consider LeBron the best player in the NBA but very few would want to be on his team. Seems strange, but that's what I read. So I'll cut Gilbert some slack on this.

But to your bigger point, I generally agree with you on Gilbert's incompetency and that Boston probably came out ahead on this deal. I also agree with you that it's interesting Thibs appears to value Wiggins more than Kyrie. I'd love to have a private one-on-one discussion with Thibs to explore that further. The fact that Thibs seems to value Wiggins so highly (more than just declining to offer him for Kyrie) is what keeps me optimistic that, in spite of what I've seen, Wiggins will become far more than just a high-volume 20+ point per game relatively inefficient scorer.

My main point is that part of Kyrie wanting to leave had to be the insanity of their front office situation. They had a new hire negotiate this deal with no one really in place for the draft or beginning of free agency. I can't see how any player would have confidence in that situation. Ainge saw the weakness and sent damaged goods, a role player, and a nice ( I think Brooklyn will be 5-9 range pick) draft pick for a top 15 player. Yes Lebron makes things complicated but Gilbert responded by not giving a good GM a raise and letting his best young asset walk. I can't see how this ends up good for Cleveland even if the draft pick is top 3.

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:Boston wins this trade. Taylor and Gilbert seem to be in competition for incompetency. Cleveland is looking at long drought once Lebron leaves. If Kyrie is overrated it is only slightly. Easily still a top 15 player.

The bigger Wolves angle in this trade is that Thibs seems to value Wiggins above Kyrie. Fascinating insight in Thibs evaluation of the player Andrew is and will develop into.

Doper - I agree with you on Gilbert's incompetency. But LeBron has put the Cavs in a tough position. He's forced the organization to go all in on him -- giving him the head coach he wanted and capping out to surround him with the players he wanted. But he refuses to commit beyond his current contract while at the same time not indicating his intent to leave. Then you think back to how LeBron left the Cavs previously -- with a big public showing and absolutely no warning to the "home-town" team that drafted him. Then he left the Heat without any warning or hint, which pissed off Pat Riley -- I'm fine with that, by the way :) I read an article recently that most young NBA players consider LeBron the best player in the NBA but very few would want to be on his team. Seems strange, but that's what I read. So I'll cut Gilbert some slack on this.

But to your bigger point, I generally agree with you on Gilbert's incompetency and that Boston probably came out ahead on this deal. I also agree with you that it's interesting Thibs appears to value Wiggins more than Kyrie. I'd love to have a private one-on-one discussion with Thibs to explore that further. The fact that Thibs seems to value Wiggins so highly (more than just declining to offer him for Kyrie) is what keeps me optimistic that, in spite of what I've seen, Wiggins will become far more than just a high-volume 20+ point per game relatively inefficient scorer.

My main point is that part of Kyrie wanting to leave had to be the insanity of their front office situation. They had a new hire negotiate this deal with no one really in place for the draft or beginning of free agency. I can't see how any player would have confidence in that situation. Ainge saw the weakness and sent damaged goods, a role player, and a nice ( I think Brooklyn will be 5-9 range pick) draft pick for a top 15 player. Yes Lebron makes things complicated but Gilbert responded by not giving a good GM a raise and letting his best young asset walk. I can't see how this ends up good for Cleveland even if the draft pick is top 3.

I agree entirely with your main point. And I agree that Danny Ainge took advantage of the situation.

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

thedoper wrote:Boston wins this trade. Taylor and Gilbert seem to be in competition for incompetency. Cleveland is looking at long drought once Lebron leaves. If Kyrie is overrated it is only slightly. Easily still a top 15 player.

The bigger Wolves angle in this trade is that Thibs seems to value Wiggins above Kyrie. Fascinating insight in Thibs evaluation of the player Andrew is and will develop into.

Doper - I agree with you on Gilbert's incompetency. But LeBron has put the Cavs in a tough position. He's forced the organization to go all in on him -- giving him the head coach he wanted and capping out to surround him with the players he wanted. But he refuses to commit beyond his current contract while at the same time not indicating his intent to leave. Then you think back to how LeBron left the Cavs previously -- with a big public showing and absolutely no warning to the "home-town" team that drafted him. Then he left the Heat without any warning or hint, which pissed off Pat Riley -- I'm fine with that, by the way :) I read an article recently that most young NBA players consider LeBron the best player in the NBA but very few would want to be on his team. Seems strange, but that's what I read. So I'll cut Gilbert some slack on this.

But to your bigger point, I generally agree with you on Gilbert's incompetency and that Boston probably came out ahead on this deal. I also agree with you that it's interesting Thibs appears to value Wiggins more than Kyrie. I'd love to have a private one-on-one discussion with Thibs to explore that further. The fact that Thibs seems to value Wiggins so highly (more than just declining to offer him for Kyrie) is what keeps me optimistic that, in spite of what I've seen, Wiggins will become far more than just a high-volume 20+ point per game relatively inefficient scorer.

My main point is that part of Kyrie wanting to leave had to be the insanity of their front office situation. They had a new hire negotiate this deal with no one really in place for the draft or beginning of free agency. I can't see how any player would have confidence in that situation. Ainge saw the weakness and sent damaged goods, a role player, and a nice ( I think Brooklyn will be 5-9 range pick) draft pick for a top 15 player. Yes Lebron makes things complicated but Gilbert responded by not giving a good GM a raise and letting his best young asset walk. I can't see how this ends up good for Cleveland even if the draft pick is top 3.

I agree entirely with your main point. And I agree that Danny Ainge took advantage of the situation.

Reports were that Griffin had considered moving Kyrie in a trade (or at one point had a deal in place) before Griffin was out so there was some movement towards Kyrie going elsewhere before Griffin was let go or whatever. So...you do have to wonder what the discussions were between Griffins and Gilbert. In addition I listened to a podcast with a local Cleveland reporter that basically said all this stuff about Kyrie not happy with his situation in Cleveland has been there for months. It's nothing new he said he was not surprised at all about the Kyrie trade request. Did Gilbert make Kyrie want to leave more because of what he did with Griffin etc? Yeah probably (not a Gilbert fan) but it's not just Gilbert's fault for this situation.

Now...Gilbert...reports are he was the one directly doing the negotiations on this Kyrie deal. Pretty interesting.