Minnesota Sports Forum

I think Gorgui's defense is underrated (he's above average now and improving). His Defensive RPM ranks 55th out of 455 in the NBA. Not too shabby.

Good conversation. Two things I'd like to add:

1.) I get that people want a big, defensive guy. But why do we have to give up a productive player to get that? Why can't we keep G and either draft or sign a Free Agent to fill that need?

2.) I don't think G is as bad defensively as some on here like to paint. There is a bigger problem IMO. Dieng was a plus defender in college. But here he's considered weak. Towns was a plus defender in college. But here he's weak. Wiggins was a plus defender, here he's weak. Rubio is supposed to be a good defender, yet we still are bad. I agree with Q's point that a defensive big can instantly improve the whole defense. But is it also possible that a defensive minded coach might be able to make use of these exact same players and have a passable defense? I believe this defense is simply under performing. As far as pinning blame - I'm not certain. I agree bigs play a big role. But I also believe in overall team scheme/defending.

Camden wrote:

Q12543 wrote:My issue with him as always been his defense in the paint. We were by far the worst defense last season and we're almost the worst defense this season. Bigs tend to have a pretty big influence on defense and he's been part of the problem.

However....Since he was inserted into the starting lineup with Towns, the other areas of his game have only gotten better: I suppose playing with a real PG in Ricky and having a couple of other offensive threats beside him in Towns and Wiggins has allowed him to flourish. He's become really efficient and versatile offensively.

The reason he is trade material is because of these very things he does well: Durability, offensive efficiency, decent rebounder. i.e. he could actually get us something really valuable in return.

But I like that this team is starting to develop an identity right now as a high-powered offense that prides itself on ball movement, attacking the basket, and fast break basketball. It's been fun and Gorgs has been a big part of it.

You know as well as I do that defense wins in this league more than offense does. I'd rather see a defense + rebounding big next to Towns in that starting lineup because we potentially have plenty of firepower there as is.

The only better defensive bigs that we might have a realistic shot of obtaining without giving up our core players or our draft pick would be Mahinmi, Ezeli, Noah, Tyson Chandler, Ed Davis, Nene, Asik or Alex Len. I think G is the better all around player when you factor in his shooting and his age. I wouldn't mind adding one of these guys to our roster though while keeping G.

To be fair, Dieng wasn't good last year, or even early this year. He's a completely different player the last couple months. I do think Towns has something to do with that, as well as having a more competent set of teammates on the floor with him, and then he's just playing a better brand of basketball.

On a related note, Zach LaVine is turning a bit of a corner as well. More specifically, he seems to be finally playing a bit more under control and reacting to what the defense is giving him, connecting to the offense as a whole for the first time. This gives me a lot of hope for him. Clearly LaVine still has a long ways to go when it comes to defense, and he also needs to ditch that "heat check" ball he shoots off balance 3 feet behind the 3 point line inevitably every game where he makes a string of 3 consecutive shots, but I'm still encouraged because a dim light has finally exposed itself.

This team really has the makings of a promising core. I hope we end up with a pick that can be a big building block with these guys and a great fit, then watch this team grow together.

Lastly, Towns is an absolute beast.

Towns and G aren't getting it done as backstops to our perimeter guys right now. The New Orleans game showed it bright as day. Most of their drives to the basket involved no help from either big and our perimeter guys being taken to the rack for easy points. That's not how NBA defense works so I don't know if a new coach fixes that problem or not, but right now the Towns/Dieng combo isn't good enough to have a good NBA defense which is going to make it tough to win a lot and have playoff success. Good NBA defenses funnel players into help defenders because they know it's just not realistic that a perimeter defender can just shut down a drive himself. That isn't happening right now on multiple levels so it's tough to know if we actually have a player problem or really just have a system problem. I think either way we need a big, defensive center who can rebound because we have plenty of offense with Dieng/Towns/Belly. Ideally we'd add two defensive bigs at both spots so we have depth in case of any injuries moving forward.

mrhockey89 wrote:To be fair, Dieng wasn't good last year, or even early this year. He's a completely different player the last couple months. I do think Towns has something to do with that, as well as having a more competent set of teammates on the floor with him, and then he's just playing a better brand of basketball.

On a related note, Zach LaVine is turning a bit of a corner as well. More specifically, he seems to be finally playing a bit more under control and reacting to what the defense is giving him, connecting to the offense as a whole for the first time. This gives me a lot of hope for him. Clearly LaVine still has a long ways to go when it comes to defense, and he also needs to ditch that "heat check" ball he shoots off balance 3 feet behind the 3 point line inevitably every game where he makes a string of 3 consecutive shots, but I'm still encouraged because a dim light has finally exposed itself.

This team really has the makings of a promising core. I hope we end up with a pick that can be a big building block with these guys and a great fit, then watch this team grow together.

Lastly, Towns is an absolute beast.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Dieng wasn't good last year. He was at or near the top the team with regard to PER, Win Shares and VORP. And it was his first year playing big minutes/in a starting role. I think he did just fine.

I never really thought of him as a PF before this year, but he's surprised me in that regard. Given his versatility, durability and productivity - He's more than earned his next deal IMO.

I always liked G and thought he was smart enough and had the right attitude to be a integral part of a winning team. Is he a starter or bench guy in that scenario? It probably depends mostly on future personnel moves. I am in favor of giving him an extension and seeing his growth as he fully matures.

Also, Ricky Rubio called. He feels slighted that no one is being goaded for using VORPs and RPMs when talking Gorgs up.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:My issue with him as always been his defense in the paint. We were by far the worst defense last season and we're almost the worst defense this season. Bigs tend to have a pretty big influence on defense and he's been part of the problem.

However....Since he was inserted into the starting lineup with Towns, the other areas of his game have only gotten better: I suppose playing with a real PG in Ricky and having a couple of other offensive threats beside him in Towns and Wiggins has allowed him to flourish. He's become really efficient and versatile offensively.

The reason he is trade material is because of these very things he does well: Durability, offensive efficiency, decent rebounder. i.e. he could actually get us something really valuable in return.

But I like that this team is starting to develop an identity right now as a high-powered offense that prides itself on ball movement, attacking the basket, and fast break basketball. It's been fun and Gorgs has been a big part of it.

But Q, isn't he really valuable himself? I'm sure other teams would love to have him for all the reasons stated in this thread. But I can't imagine him being worth any more to other organizations than he is to us. We need him badly right now. We don't have much depth up front and G with KAT has been better than good. If we can sign or draft a guy that would have G coming off the bench it would be fantastic. But for now we need him starting and playing 35 minutes per night.

I don't think there needs to be a rush to do anything with Gorgs. I'm just saying that a few phone calls this offseason might be in order. I'd like to see us find an interior presence that does a better job protecting the paint that Gorgs.

Another realistic path is to enter next season and keep rolling with this starting 5 (KAT-Dieng-Wiggins-LaVine-Rubio) and see if they can grow together as a defensive unit. Offensively they are fine and will only get better. But defensively they are not good and interior defense is a big part of it.

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:My issue with him as always been his defense in the paint. We were by far the worst defense last season and we're almost the worst defense this season. Bigs tend to have a pretty big influence on defense and he's been part of the problem.

However....Since he was inserted into the starting lineup with Towns, the other areas of his game have only gotten better: I suppose playing with a real PG in Ricky and having a couple of other offensive threats beside him in Towns and Wiggins has allowed him to flourish. He's become really efficient and versatile offensively.

The reason he is trade material is because of these very things he does well: Durability, offensive efficiency, decent rebounder. i.e. he could actually get us something really valuable in return.

But I like that this team is starting to develop an identity right now as a high-powered offense that prides itself on ball movement, attacking the basket, and fast break basketball. It's been fun and Gorgs has been a big part of it.

But Q, isn't he really valuable himself? I'm sure other teams would love to have him for all the reasons stated in this thread. But I can't imagine him being worth any more to other organizations than he is to us. We need him badly right now. We don't have much depth up front and G with KAT has been better than good. If we can sign or draft a guy that would have G coming off the bench it would be fantastic. But for now we need him starting and playing 35 minutes per night.

I don't think there needs to be a rush to do anything with Gorgs. I'm just saying that a few phone calls this offseason might be in order. I'd like to see us find an interior presence that does a better job protecting the paint that Gorgs.

Another realistic path is to enter next season and keep rolling with this starting 5 (KAT-Dieng-Wiggins-LaVine-Rubio) and see if they can grow together as a defensive unit. Offensively they are fine and will only get better. But defensively they are not good and interior defense is a big part of it.

We need Thibs or a defensive minded coach or assistant. We don't have one by Sam's own admission. That alone could improve the starting unit's defense quite a bit, plus the hopeful maturation of our young guys. Dieng is fine. I wouldnt mind getting a big who is defensive orientated as the 3rd big to spell KAT and G.

TeamRicky wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:My issue with him as always been his defense in the paint. We were by far the worst defense last season and we're almost the worst defense this season. Bigs tend to have a pretty big influence on defense and he's been part of the problem.

However....Since he was inserted into the starting lineup with Towns, the other areas of his game have only gotten better: I suppose playing with a real PG in Ricky and having a couple of other offensive threats beside him in Towns and Wiggins has allowed him to flourish. He's become really efficient and versatile offensively.

The reason he is trade material is because of these very things he does well: Durability, offensive efficiency, decent rebounder. i.e. he could actually get us something really valuable in return.

But I like that this team is starting to develop an identity right now as a high-powered offense that prides itself on ball movement, attacking the basket, and fast break basketball. It's been fun and Gorgs has been a big part of it.

But Q, isn't he really valuable himself? I'm sure other teams would love to have him for all the reasons stated in this thread. But I can't imagine him being worth any more to other organizations than he is to us. We need him badly right now. We don't have much depth up front and G with KAT has been better than good. If we can sign or draft a guy that would have G coming off the bench it would be fantastic. But for now we need him starting and playing 35 minutes per night.

I don't think there needs to be a rush to do anything with Gorgs. I'm just saying that a few phone calls this offseason might be in order. I'd like to see us find an interior presence that does a better job protecting the paint that Gorgs.

Another realistic path is to enter next season and keep rolling with this starting 5 (KAT-Dieng-Wiggins-LaVine-Rubio) and see if they can grow together as a defensive unit. Offensively they are fine and will only get better. But defensively they are not good and interior defense is a big part of it.

We need Thibs or a defensive minded coach or assistant. We don't have one by Sam's own admission. That alone could improve the starting unit's defense quite a bit, plus the hopeful maturation of our young guys. Dieng is fine. I wouldnt mind getting a big who is defensive orientated as the 3rd big to spell KAT and G.

Well, the issue is he's the oldest of the bunch. I'm not discounting further improvement from him defensively entirely, but between his age and 3 years of NBA experience, he must be hitting his ceiling soon. Also, Ricky is not going to get any better defensively given his age and NBA experience, so two out of five guys are what they are on defense. That means we are counting on nearly 100% of that improvement coming from Wiggins, LaVine, KAT, and whatever kind of bench crew we assemble over the next couple of years.