Minnesota Sports Forum

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Just my opinion, but when Andrew is engaged (and we know that's not often enough), he is a terrific on ball defender. I mean better than good. When he digs in and tries to deny a move or even a shot attempt, he succeeds at a very high rate. He's not a good team defender and that's half the battle, but at least that part of the game can be taught and improved upon. I have to admit, I don't think this board generally respects his defense enough.

I think the exact opposite. I think this board has overrated his defense for two years now. It's been discussed already, but Wiggins is an above average isolation defender and has struggles in pretty much every other facet of defense. He's still a young player so we expect him to grow, but he's been touted already as a great defender when he's not. He has all the tools though and that's why people mistake potential for production. It also doesn't scream lock-down defender when he checks out of games mentally from game to game. That has to stop.

The problem is that Wiggins has real issues (it's not just him) when teams set screens on his man. To me there is isolation D defense when I guy moves without the ball around screens and making cuts and team defense. Sure give Wigins a guy and have him try and keep him from scoring one on one? Yeah he is good there and that's a positive no doubt but the other phases he struggles a lot and so do other guys. Some of that is up to coaching and scheme but a lot of the Wolves perimeter players over the years have made it way to easy to be screened.

Edit: Transition D is a 4th phase and I dont know that I give Wiggins a good grade there but Lavine has improved there a great deal with his improved ability to dig at the ball.

Like cool said, when engaged, Wiggins is terrific as an on ball defender. He rarely gambles or swipe his hands at the ball. He just play straight up fundamental defense and can shut you down when dialed in.

Team defense is something that he needs to work on. He has been getting more steals lately so he seems to be playing the passing lanes better and improving his anticipation but it is still not what it should be for a long, fast and athletic player like him.

Camden wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Just my opinion, but when Andrew is engaged (and we know that's not often enough), he is a terrific on ball defender. I mean better than good. When he digs in and tries to deny a move or even a shot attempt, he succeeds at a very high rate. He's not a good team defender and that's half the battle, but at least that part of the game can be taught and improved upon. I have to admit, I don't think this board generally respects his defense enough.

I think the exact opposite. I think this board has overrated his defense for two years now. It's been discussed already, but Wiggins is an above average isolation defender and has struggles in pretty much every other facet of defense. He's still a young player so we expect him to grow, but he's been touted already as a great defender when he's not. He has all the tools though and that's why people mistake potential for production. It also doesn't scream lock-down defender when he checks out of games mentally from game to game. That has to stop.

That's strange, you think the opposite of me? Who would have seen that coming? :d

Abe, if you look at advanced stats, you get the answer. Over the course of the season, Dieng and Ricky have been very good to great defenders. Karl has been a bit above average defender. Wiggins, has all the tools to be a very good defender and has shown flashes, but statistically he has been a poor defender. Zach is in the same boat as Wiggins, he's been poor defender, but starting to get it.

TeamRicky wrote:Abe, if you look at advanced stats, you get the answer. Over the course of the season, Dieng and Ricky have been very good to great defenders. Karl has been a bit above average defender. Wiggins, has all the tools to be a very good defender and has shown flashes, but statistically he has been a poor defender. Zach is in the same boat as Wiggins, he's been poor defender, but starting to get it.

I think it's an appropriate time to again bring up DRtg (the stat you've argued in favor of) from Sports-Reference.com. I believe you said it was the best stat to see how good or bad a player is at defense. Q and myself told you that stat was a bit misleading, but you think it holds great value. Anything above 100 is poor or bad. So, here's this:

Rubio: 108
LaVine: 112
Wiggins: 113
Dieng: 106
Towns: 106

According to that, Wiggins is our worst defender with LaVine just a bit better than him. Dieng and Towns are the least worst, but still bad. Rubio's not a good defender either.

Keep in mind that Steph Curry's DRtg is 103 and Kyrie Irving's is 107. Guess both are better defenders than Rubio, in a vacuum.

(I don't disagree with the quoted post. I'm just illustrating how DRtg is a meh stat for individual defense.)

Stats can lie, or tell whatever tale you want them to. You just have to find the right stat to back up whatever argument you have. Debate 101.

Camden wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:Abe, if you look at advanced stats, you get the answer. Over the course of the season, Dieng and Ricky have been very good to great defenders. Karl has been a bit above average defender. Wiggins, has all the tools to be a very good defender and has shown flashes, but statistically he has been a poor defender. Zach is in the same boat as Wiggins, he's been poor defender, but starting to get it.

I think it's an appropriate time to again bring up DRtg (the stat you've argued in favor of) from Sports-Reference.com. I believe you said it was the best stat to see how good or bad a player is at defense. Q and myself told you that stat was a bit misleading, but you think it holds great value. Anything above 100 is poor or bad. So, here's this:

Rubio: 108
LaVine: 112
Wiggins: 113
Dieng: 106
Towns: 106

According to that, Wiggins is our worst defender with LaVine just a bit better than him. Dieng and Towns are the least worst, but still bad. Rubio's not a good defender either.

Keep in mind that Steph Curry's DRtg is 103 and Kyrie Irving's is 107. Guess both are better defenders than Rubio, in a vacuum.

(I don't disagree with the quoted post. I'm just illustrating how DRtg is a meh stat for individual defense.)

That stat is team dependent. Not really a measure of individual defense.

Camden wrote:

TeamRicky wrote:Abe, if you look at advanced stats, you get the answer. Over the course of the season, Dieng and Ricky have been very good to great defenders. Karl has been a bit above average defender. Wiggins, has all the tools to be a very good defender and has shown flashes, but statistically he has been a poor defender. Zach is in the same boat as Wiggins, he's been poor defender, but starting to get it.

I think it's an appropriate time to again bring up DRtg (the stat you've argued in favor of) from Sports-Reference.com. I believe you said it was the best stat to see how good or bad a player is at defense. Q and myself told you that stat was a bit misleading, but you think it holds great value. Anything above 100 is poor or bad. So, here's this:

Rubio: 108
LaVine: 112
Wiggins: 113
Dieng: 106
Towns: 106

According to that, Wiggins is our worst defender with LaVine just a bit better than him. Dieng and Towns are the least worst, but still bad. Rubio's not a good defender either.

Keep in mind that Steph Curry's DRtg is 103 and Kyrie Irving's is 107. Guess both are better defenders than Rubio, in a vacuum.

(I don't disagree with the quoted post. I'm just illustrating how DRtg is a meh stat for individual defense.)

I prefer DRPM over D-Rating and that's my go to stat I use for NBA players. My eyeball test and DRPM correlate pretty well. I think your case in point shows, D-Rating is less useful for NBA players. Maybe its more accurate if you compare players on the same team as both stats clearly show Wiggins and LaVine are the weaker defenders this year.

I don't think I've ever found DRPM for college stats and until then I am stuck with D-Rating. D-Rating for college players has only been out like 5 years. There definitely is a decent correlation for college players based on the sampling I have done, though probably more outliers.

Zach LaVine in March: 19.8 PPG (51.6 FG%, 48.3 3P% on 5.5 3PA, 73.5 FT%) over 12 games.

Holy shit.