Minnesota Sports Forum

AbeVigodaLive wrote:Does the fact that he scores well when given minutes a byproduct of more minutes...

... Or does he earn more minutes in those games by scoring enough to offset his other flaws?


(Note: I thought his "battle" with Carmelo was misguided. Anthony was only moderately engaged Up to that point. That changed.)

That's definitely the right question. The only way to answer that question definitively is to give Bazz more minutes. 30 minutes in only 5 of 50 games is not enough. We are a rebuilding team. Sam himself has repeatedly said this season is about development, not winning. I'll add the work evaluation to the word development.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Shabazz does not have the attributes you want to see in a starting wing, or one that gets at least 30 minutes per game. That being said, he is a valuable piece of a puzzle that can be a contender. The reason he occasionally gets big minutes is because he gets the hot hand in that particular game. Just giving him more minutes doesn't necessarily mean he's going to average 20 points per game. He's one guy that I think Sam handles properly. When he's got it going he rides him, when he doesn't he won't give him as much run.

Shabazz's biggest problem is coming to this team at the same time as Towns, Wig, and Lavine. If he were to come along a few years later, I think his value would be obvious and his role more clearly defined. But now he's kind of caught in this intra team competition while he's still trying to find his way in the league. It's a bad dynamic for him with the Wolves. Unfortunately, I think he will probably have to move on eventually. And when he does, he will find the same role with another team that he should be happy to have with the Wolves today.

First of all, let me say I don't see Bazz as a starter either. But I can tell you that Flip told me he saw Bazz as an eventual starter.

Moreover, last night showed we have enough minutes to go around to give Bazz 30 minutes without starting him and without skimping on the minutes of our other young guys. Further, Prince should not be getting 20+ minutes on a rebuilding lottery-bound team. That's basic.

Finally, Bazz is streaky. We all know that. As a streaky player, he may need larger more consistent blocks of minutes to get a truly valid sample of his productivity. If I had to bet, I'd bet against Bazz putting up 22.8 PPG if he played 30 minutes a game. But he might get that or something close to it with 6 boards and great hustle. And if he gets those numbers as a 6th man off the bench he could be s net plus in spite of his defense. I also believe that the fact that he gives great effort defensively suggests he can eventually become a passable defender. But he needs the PT to develop in that area.

As for his poor passing and shoot first mentality, I'm fine with that in a guy whose role is scoring. I'll add that his passing has improved this season by my eye test.

lipoli390 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Shabazz does not have the attributes you want to see in a starting wing, or one that gets at least 30 minutes per game. That being said, he is a valuable piece of a puzzle that can be a contender. The reason he occasionally gets big minutes is because he gets the hot hand in that particular game. Just giving him more minutes doesn't necessarily mean he's going to average 20 points per game. He's one guy that I think Sam handles properly. When he's got it going he rides him, when he doesn't he won't give him as much run.

Shabazz's biggest problem is coming to this team at the same time as Towns, Wig, and Lavine. If he were to come along a few years later, I think his value would be obvious and his role more clearly defined. But now he's kind of caught in this intra team competition while he's still trying to find his way in the league. It's a bad dynamic for him with the Wolves. Unfortunately, I think he will probably have to move on eventually. And when he does, he will find the same role with another team that he should be happy to have with the Wolves today.

First of all, let me say I don't see Bazz as a starter either. But I can tell you that Flip told me he saw Bazz as an eventual starter.

Moreover, last night showed we have enough minutes to go around to give Bazz 30 minutes without starting him and without skimping on the minutes of our other young guys. Further, Prince should not be getting 20+ minutes on a rebuilding lottery-bound team. That's basic.

Finally, Bazz is streaky. We all know that. As a streaky player, he may need larger more consistent blocks of minutes to get a truly valid sample of his productivity. If I had to bet, I'd bet against Bazz putting up 22.8 PPG if he played 30 minutes a game. But he might get that or something close to it with 6 boards and great hustle. And if he gets those numbers as a 6th man off the bench he could be s net plus in spite of his defense. I also believe that the fact that he gives great effort defensively suggests he can eventually become a passable defender. But he needs the PT to develop in that area.

As for his poor passing and shoot first mentality, I'm fine with that in a guy whose role is scoring. I'll add that his passing has improved this season by my eye test.

Two very good posts on Bazz in addition to a good opening post to start discussion. I am a Bazz fan but I was very critical of his defense earlier in the season. It was so brutal Martin was clearly a better defensive player. Bazz didn't pass at all either. What I have seen the last month or so is a guy that's come a ways in both areas. Peterson was critical of him the last game or two having to get back to that left hand and he obviously has some flaws in his game and he hasn't really diversified his game much offensively since coming into the league.

Sam says he has used minutes as a motivating factor for Bazz. I don't know if that's right or not but I do think at this point it's time to give the guy some more chances. It feels like of all the young wolves (aside from Tyus) Bazz has been put in the toughest positions to succeed and has had the least rope to get minutes even though he has actually done some good things out there like Lip put forth in the OP. I get Prince starting last game matching him up against Melo and Wiggins against Affalo to start but why not throw Bazz out there against Melo tell him he can use fouls if he wants whatever. I don't think you can say absolutely what Bazz is after this season but I'd like to see him get more opportunities both for success and screwing up which is one way to learn.

On the other hand Bazz is a guy that can't crack the starting lineup or consistent rotation minutes for a bad team. om the other hand he can come off the bench and inject some serious energy into the team and its not just scoring it's hustle rebounding flat out energy and excitement in a similar way Brewer does but with a different skill set.

We don't want to play Bazz 30 mins because of the impact on our D?

Did I miss the part where we were a great or even mediocre denfensive team to begin with? At least showcase him so he can be moved. Sitting him on the bench in favor of Prince at this stage in the season is ridiculous. Prince playing for.longer than a month into the season has been my biggest problem with Mitchell this season. There is no reason for it.

I'm actually at the point where I like Prince playing 15-20 minutes nightly. He provides solid defense and a ball mover on offense. My only thing is that he absolutely has to come off the bench. LaVine needs to be starting at SG for the remainder of this season and it took too long for Mitchell to even start playing with that idea. Should have done it straight out of camp.

Muhammad needs consistent minutes and a role, I agree, but I still think I'd play him 20-25 per game with nights that he's hot you let him get 30 or more. Also, for the love of basketball, stop playing Muhammad with LaVine and Martin. It's proven that it's an awful lineup combination. Work Bazz with Rubio and Wiggins and I'd even be fine with Bazz and Prince together.

Camden wrote:I'm actually at the point where I like Prince playing 15-20 minutes nightly. He provides solid defense and a ball mover on offense. My only thing is that he absolutely has to come off the bench. LaVine needs to be starting at SG for the remainder of this season and it took too long for Mitchell to even start playing with that idea. Should have done it straight out of camp.

Muhammad needs consistent minutes and a role, I agree, but I still think I'd play him 20-25 per game with nights that he's hot you let him get 30 or more. Also, for the love of basketball, stop playing Muhammad with LaVine and Martin. It's proven that it's an awful lineup combination. Work Bazz with Rubio and Wiggins and I'd even be fine with Bazz and Prince together.

Cam - I agree with you completely on starting LaVine. And I also agree that the combining Bazz with LaVine and Martin is idiotic. Where we disagree is on Prince playing 15-20 minutes. It's not that I disagree with you on his value defensively. It's just that, at this point in their season, we need to maximize the minutes of the young guys who might be part of our future or who might be valuable trade assets. That means minutes to Bazz that might otherwise go to Prince. I'm not sold on Bazz, but it is critical that the Wolves organization given themselves every opportunity to develop and evaluate Bazz and the other young talent on the team.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't have a huge problem with you're approach. The key to your approach in my mind is that Bazz would get consistent minutes, even if they fell short of the 30 plus minutes I'd like to see him get. Consistency is important.

I wrote a very long post initially describing my own experiences with some issues that are polar opposite to Shabazz, in regards to my basketball career. Basically, scoring and shooting were never my strong suites but playing games and watching others I developed enough to make me able to do it. Defense and passing were things I was always good at that others who weren't, even at the high school level, never developed. I think the same is the truth for Shabazz, he'll probably never be good at them because they are instinct based skills.

There is one thing that could make him somewhat better though, and that's to give him a defined role, which isn't something this organization seems to be good at. You could always say, "Hey, you're a great scorer and rebounder and we want those strengths in the starting line up, but we're going to make you the 3rd option and your main duties will be to play defense and help our first two options score efficiently. You're good at drawing defenders in the post and getting into the paint, when you do those things, don't force up a tough shot even if you can make it, pass out to an open guy." Even then, it is a trial and error process, it could work or he could make to many errors because he's not playing to his strengths. What we could end up with is a dramatically better wing who's length and more mature body could make him an even better defender than Wiggins; or we could end up with a mentally defeated player who loses confidence because he's forced into a situation he's not used to or has been trained to do.

I think the best option is to decide if he's capable of being an elite 6th man, and if he's not, move him. Either way we need to pick a plan and stick with it because he clearly has enough ability to be a long term part of this team. I agree that the only way to find this out is to give him elite 6th man minutes and let him do what he does best, if it works, that just shows that we need to get other pieces on that second unit to mask his faults. Tyus has the perfect skill set for a back up, with him and Bazz, we have a weak defensive backcourt that needs good defensive players around them, but I think down the road they are more than enough offensively to keep the second unit clicking offensively.

I know building a second unit without starters doesn't make much sense but we're really close on the starters being set, that if we could add another plus defender at the 4, the rest is filling out the bench and letting everyone grow together.

Sadly, it all comes down to the organization's biggest weakness, development.

ahughes53 wrote:I wrote a very long post initially describing my own experiences with some issues that are polar opposite to Shabazz, in regards to my basketball career. Basically, scoring and shooting were never my strong suites but playing games and watching others I developed enough to make me able to do it. Defense and passing were things I was always good at that others who weren't, even at the high school level, never developed. I think the same is the truth for Shabazz, he'll probably never be good at them because they are instinct based skills.

There is one thing that could make him somewhat better though, and that's to give him a defined role, which isn't something this organization seems to be good at. You could always say, "Hey, you're a great scorer and rebounder and we want those strengths in the starting line up, but we're going to make you the 3rd option and your main duties will be to play defense and help our first two options score efficiently. You're good at drawing defenders in the post and getting into the paint, when you do those things, don't force up a tough shot even if you can make it, pass out to an open guy." Even then, it is a trial and error process, it could work or he could make to many errors because he's not playing to his strengths. What we could end up with is a dramatically better wing who's length and more mature body could make him an even better defender than Wiggins; or we could end up with a mentally defeated player who loses confidence because he's forced into a situation he's not used to or has been trained to do.

I think the best option is to decide if he's capable of being an elite 6th man, and if he's not, move him. Either way we need to pick a plan and stick with it because he clearly has enough ability to be a long term part of this team. I agree that the only way to find this out is to give him elite 6th man minutes and let him do what he does best, if it works, that just shows that we need to get other pieces on that second unit to mask his faults. Tyus has the perfect skill set for a back up, with him and Bazz, we have a weak defensive backcourt that needs good defensive players around them, but I think down the road they are more than enough offensively to keep the second unit clicking offensively.

I know building a second unit without starters doesn't make much sense but we're really close on the starters being set, that if we could add another plus defender at the 4, the rest is filling out the bench and letting everyone grow together.

Sadly, it all comes down to the organization's biggest weakness, development.

In bold.

NBA players often rebel when they feel jerked around. And they often thrive when they know exactly what's expected of them. And because the Wolves have been flailing so much at finding a foundation in recent years, finding identities for complementary players has never been a priority.

I hope to see that happen with the new coach and future success.