Minnesota Sports Forum

Shumway wrote:

Camden wrote:Okay, Cool, I'd like an in depth retort from you on why Thibs is "far from the best" fit here as a head coach. I know that's your stance and that's fine with me that we disagree, but I'd like to know more than just your opinion. I'd like the reasons behind it. If all you have is the "Thibs runs his players into the ground" fable, then that doesn't cut it for me, but I assume you have more than that though because you have a basketball background as a coach. You know the game well enough to talk about schemes, player/system fit and so on.

This is me respectfully asking for more of an explanation, not me coming at you in any vicious or aggressive manner. I'm simply wanting the opposing stance in a more detailed layout. Might be good for the board to hear the "why not Thibs" angle.

Cam, I'm much more of an observer than a contributor on this board, so I'd like to say it's great to have you here contributing to this board. Previous disagreements got pretty heated on this board at times, and when you left for a while, I didn't expect you'd be back. It looks like you have really learned from your experiences and come back with all of your expertise, opinions and analysis and it appears you're now cognisant of always presenting that in a constructive manner. It is so easy for people to dig their heals in when they face criticism, so I have an enormous amount of respect for your approach now.

And this sentiment is really extended to everyone who posts on this board. It's a great community here where people have some genuinely great insights into basketball and despite the frustration of differing opinions, it is predominantly a very respectful environment. It's sometime difficult to really understand the tone or context of written text, so to maintain such an environment on a message board is a credit to all who contribute.

Cool, over to you to elaborate on your opinion on Thibs.

I appreciate it, Shumway. I'm glad somebody enjoys reading my takes other than myself. When I left, I didn't expect to come back to the board myself, but there are a handful of posters here that I truly do enjoy discussing hoops with and missed the educated talks with them (Q, Lip, Mikkeman, Abe, monster, bleed, Carlos Danger and even LST to name a few). I never joined the old ESPN forum or this one to have pissing contests, but I let myself get away from that a little bit and clearly needed a break from the unproductive back and forth. I hope to keep it constructive, informational and productive from here on out.

This forum really is something special, though. I agree that it's a great group of posters, both regulars and occasionals, with different personalities and opinions. I haven't found anything like this anywhere else to this day.

I think Cam did a good job laying out explanation of those relatively good defensive ratings during the Adelman years but I will add a couple things.

It should be no surprise the team led by a no-brainer hall of Fame coach actually didn't suck on defense. Like Cam said part of why Adelman likely had at least solid defensive teams was he typically had teams playing well on the offensive end. On the defensive end it was at least decent although I do think it SEEMED that defensively the Wolves struggled late and a lot of fans both here and beyond felt some of that was personnel. If AK would have stuck around AND been healthy his defense alone would have made things interesting but that sadly wasn't in the cards for his career.

The reality is that coaching is massive when it comes to defense you just can't get around that as Q has laid out. So many of us said around a year ago and then kept saying it for months we wanted Flip to add a defensive mind to the coaching staff. I don't really want Sam to stick around but if he did and they added some legit defensive mind to the coaching staff I would be a lot more satisfied and have some hope.

Camden wrote:Okay, Cool, I'd like an in depth retort from you on why Thibs is "far from the best" fit here as a head coach. I know that's your stance and that's fine with me that we disagree, but I'd like to know more than just your opinion. I'd like the reasons behind it. If all you have is the "Thibs runs his players into the ground" fable, then that doesn't cut it for me, but I assume you have more than that though because you have a basketball background as a coach. You know the game well enough to talk about schemes, player/system fit and so on.

This is me respectfully asking for more of an explanation, not me coming at you in any vicious or aggressive manner. I'm simply wanting the opposing stance in a more detailed layout. Might be good for the board to hear the "why not Thibs" angle.

Well first realize I don't believe he's a terrible coach or anything like that. I just think he's not the right coach for us. Here are several reasons why:

- His offense is very predictable and lacks imagination
- It's not that he cant get along with his players. He can't get along with his players, bosses, or anybody else around the team like the medical staff and trainers
- As you say, he does run his players into the ground and he wears out his welcome quickly. His minute management for players is terrible
- Many think overuse led to Derrick Rose's injuries
- He still coaches like he's an assistant, instead of being the leader head coaches need to be
- He will make a splash in his first year, and then spend the rest of his tenure trying to match it - and failing to do so
- Losing 3 straight to the Cavs in last year's playoffs was pathetic after holding a 2-1 edge

The problem isn't his basketball mind, it's his ability to communicate and function inside an organization where he is a major cog, just not the only cog. In our next coach I want a winner, leader, and communicator. With Thibs you only get one of those three things.

Camden0916 wrote:

Shumway wrote:

Camden wrote:Okay, Cool, I'd like an in depth retort from you on why Thibs is "far from the best" fit here as a head coach. I know that's your stance and that's fine with me that we disagree, but I'd like to know more than just your opinion. I'd like the reasons behind it. If all you have is the "Thibs runs his players into the ground" fable, then that doesn't cut it for me, but I assume you have more than that though because you have a basketball background as a coach. You know the game well enough to talk about schemes, player/system fit and so on.

This is me respectfully asking for more of an explanation, not me coming at you in any vicious or aggressive manner. I'm simply wanting the opposing stance in a more detailed layout. Might be good for the board to hear the "why not Thibs" angle.

Cam, I'm much more of an observer than a contributor on this board, so I'd like to say it's great to have you here contributing to this board. Previous disagreements got pretty heated on this board at times, and when you left for a while, I didn't expect you'd be back. It looks like you have really learned from your experiences and come back with all of your expertise, opinions and analysis and it appears you're now cognisant of always presenting that in a constructive manner. It is so easy for people to dig their heals in when they face criticism, so I have an enormous amount of respect for your approach now.

And this sentiment is really extended to everyone who posts on this board. It's a great community here where people have some genuinely great insights into basketball and despite the frustration of differing opinions, it is predominantly a very respectful environment. It's sometime difficult to really understand the tone or context of written text, so to maintain such an environment on a message board is a credit to all who contribute.

Cool, over to you to elaborate on your opinion on Thibs.

I appreciate it, Shumway. I'm glad somebody enjoys reading my takes other than myself. When I left, I didn't expect to come back to the board myself, but there are a handful of posters here that I truly do enjoy discussing hoops with and missed the educated talks with them (Q, Lip, Mikkeman, Abe, monster, bleed, Carlos Danger and even LST to name a few). I never joined the old ESPN forum or this one to have pissing contests, but I let myself get away from that a little bit and clearly needed a break from the unproductive back and forth. I hope to keep it constructive, informational and productive from here on out.

This forum really is something special, though. I agree that it's a great group of posters, both regulars and occasionals, with different personalities and opinions. I haven't found anything like this anywhere else to this day.

Great posts Shumway and Cam. This is a great community and I am glad Cam came back because he wanted to be a part of it.

I think Thibs is a great regular season coach who's teams consistently broke down and struggled to do anything in the playoffs for a reason. He ran his teams into the ground and lacked offensive imagination to the point where every playoff series was a struggle because they weren't healthy enough to keep dominating defensively and they had no offensive tricks in the bag to help them win games without a struggle every single game. I just don't know how you can consistently have that much talent and consistently be on the struggle bus no matter the round of the playoffs.

I'm very leery of Thibodeau as GM. Yikes.

But as coach? I think it's a coup. We hear about running players into the ground quite a bit with him. And I guess there might be some merit to it. I also think it's overstated because of Rose's injury history. When does Rose take the heat for that? Or, maybe it's just bad luck.

Did you know...

- The Bulls under Thibodeau won a playoff series last season. And they competed against the team that went to the Finals. Was it ideal? No. An abject failure? I'd say no as well. After all, the Bulls are probably out of the playoffs this season. Did the players fall off that cliff on their own?

- The Bulls lost in the 1st round in 2014. That's not good. But remember... DJ Augustin took the most shots on the team in that series. The same DJ Augustin who has been riding various benches this season, even as a 3rd string guy and the guy who cost Indiana a shot vs. Miami a few years back. (please ignore tonight's game by Augustin. Thanks.)

- In 2013, Chicago upset Brooklyn in the playoffs with Boozer and Nate Robinson leading the way. Read that again. Then they lost to the WC Heat.

- In 2012, the Bulls lost to an inferior team. But there's a caveat there. Rose went down in a Game 1 win. His backup, CJ Watson, shot a very Darrick Martin-esque 24% for the series.

- In 2011, the Bulls lost to the Heat in the WCF.

Add it up and he has 4 playoff series wins. 5 losses. And that includes having PGs ranging from D. Rose to Nate Robison to CJ Watson to DJ Augustin. Is his playoff record great? No. But it aint bad either. Remember... the Wolves have 2 playoff series wins in 27 years.

Now, what I have heard from people closer to the Bulls than I am is that he is stubborn. And that his inability to make changes on the fly in the playoffs cost the team at times. But, is demanding effort from players and getting them to compete every night really a terrible thing you'd want in a coach?

MN will have a new head coach next year right?

I just have this fear that they may give Sam one more year, that sure would be sad.

Shumway wrote:

Camden wrote:Okay, Cool, I'd like an in depth retort from you on why Thibs is "far from the best" fit here as a head coach. I know that's your stance and that's fine with me that we disagree, but I'd like to know more than just your opinion. I'd like the reasons behind it. If all you have is the "Thibs runs his players into the ground" fable, then that doesn't cut it for me, but I assume you have more than that though because you have a basketball background as a coach. You know the game well enough to talk about schemes, player/system fit and so on.

This is me respectfully asking for more of an explanation, not me coming at you in any vicious or aggressive manner. I'm simply wanting the opposing stance in a more detailed layout. Might be good for the board to hear the "why not Thibs" angle.

Cam, I'm much more of an observer than a contributor on this board, so I'd like to say it's great to have you here contributing to this board. Previous disagreements got pretty heated on this board at times, and when you left for a while, I didn't expect you'd be back. It looks like you have really learned from your experiences and come back with all of your expertise, opinions and analysis and it appears you're now cognisant of always presenting that in a constructive manner. It is so easy for people to dig their heals in when they face criticism, so I have an enormous amount of respect for your approach now.

And this sentiment is really extended to everyone who posts on this board. It's a great community here where people have some genuinely great insights into basketball and despite the frustration of differing opinions, it is predominantly a very respectful environment. It's sometime difficult to really understand the tone or context of written text, so to maintain such an environment on a message board is a credit to all who contribute.

Cool, over to you to elaborate on your opinion on Thibs.

Good post Shumway. Great reminder for all of us that we all should continue to strive for constructive back and forth. No question this board does a better job of that than most online forums out there. And I've said this before, but I'll say it again - I like that this community self polices. In other words, it's not some moderator that determines a poster is over the line. It's the community that jumps in and moderates. I've seen potential trolls chased away multiple times by board regulars. And I've seen regulars jump in to de-escalate things when things get off-track due to sniping back & forth. That's pretty cool IMO.

Some News on Thibs:

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/golden-state-warriors-sacramento-kings-tom-thibodeau-defense-george-karl-030216

TeamRicky wrote:Some News on Thibs:

http://www.foxsports.com/nba/story/golden-state-warriors-sacramento-kings-tom-thibodeau-defense-george-karl-030216

Thibs seems to be having fun.