Minnesota Sports Forum

khans2k5 wrote:Aside from the fact that I have seen Wiggins get a layup attempt while jumping from basically the free throw line over a defender, which Bazz couldn't do if he wanted to, Wiggins is already considered a very good defender in college. He projects to be a very good defender right out of the gate. Bazz was a non-factor on D in college and defense wasn't in the scouting report for him going into the draft or he would have gone much higher regardless of the off-court issues. Wiggins is a way better athlete than Bazz and if you watch him play, you would see that he can play way above the rim where Bazz plays well below the rim. He didn't get 19 rebounds in a game because of luck. The stats may be close, but the eye test is not. The only thing Wiggins is missing is a consistent jump shot and some more floor space to get to the basket which is something the NBA provides and college does not. If you watch Wiggins play, it looks like he isn't doing anything on offense and then you look at the box score and he'll already have 15 points. That is the sign of a superstar in the making. Meanwhile you knew when Bazz was scoring because it took him almost as many shots as the actual points he was scoring. One is a black hole on offense while the other scores within the flow of the offense. That makes a huge difference. I understand the want to play Bazz, but I don't see Bazz in the same league as Wiggins considering how they both look playing in college. Bazz dropped in the draft because of his play in college and Wiggins isn't doing the same in what is considered to be a much stronger draft, so Bazz does not equal Wiggins.

I'm not saying that Wiggins and Muhammad are the same player, because they clearly are not. I'm saying that despite their vastly different reputations, their statistics in their freshman year are strikingly similar. That fact has not been disputed by the Shabazz detractors in this thread, because it can't be. Everything else is eye test as you say, khans, and I agree that Wiggins wins the eye test every time when it comes to athleticism. He is a jaw dropping athlete and a combine dream with his extraordinary length.

We are always going to be drawn to the player who can astonish us with his athleticism. I watch Kansas games hoping to see Wiggins do something that makes me jump out of my chair. Muhammad's style has never been like that. He has gotten his points at every level through his relentless motor and offensive intensity, and according to Flip and Rick he continues to display this motor in practices, which is why I am becoming increasingly frustrated by his lack of minutes. Wiggins, on the other hand, has a tendency to disappear on offense and defense, and scouts talk about his lack of killer instinct and intensity. Eye test items again, to be sure, but another way to explain why their freshman statistics are identical although Wiggins is the far prettier and more athletic player. Wiggins is a thoroughbred, Muhammad is a workhorse...and despite completely different styles, they score with identical efficiency.

I agree, khans, that Wiggins is the better defensive player, but even here his motor holds him back sometimes. If you watched the Kansas State loss last week, you will know that he seemed to take plays off defensively against a much shorter Marcus Foster, and ultimately that cost them the win. He has the potential to be an extraordinary defender (although his thin frame may cause him to get overpowered at the next level), but he will only get there if he improves his motor.

My main point remains this: The Wolves desperately need bench scoring, and a guy who has shown the ability to score at the same rate as Wiggins is sitting next to A. J. Price on Rick's bench.

bleedspeed177 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

In my view, the question isn't whether Shabazz is as good as Wiggins; he's not and even if he is then the team that takes Wiggins in the draft will be making a big mistake. I can also understand why Adelman hasn't played Shabazz much. What I still can't understand or forgive is Flip's decision to draft him with McCollum, Hardaway, Burke, the Greek Freak and MCW on the board. That was my view last summer on draft day and history thus far supports that view.

Damn - I didn't know we could have had MCW. Think of a backcourt with him and Rubio. That would have been crazy.

Bleed, my recollection was that there wasn't much support for MCW on this (or the ESPN) board when our turn came up because of his poor shooting. And he has shot pretty much as he was projected to...39% overall and 29% on threes. Combine his shooting with his 3.5 turnovers per game, and he never would have gotten off Adelman's bench. And if he did play with Rubio, defenses wouldn't have to respect the outside shot at all.

lipoli390 wrote:Shabazz is a one-way (offense-only), one-handed (can't dribble or shoot effectively with his right hand), one-directional (can only go left effectively), unathletic (relative to Wiggens and most top NBA players) player without NBA 3-point range. Shabazz put up good numbers in college by overpowering players at his position with his size. He can't do that in the NBA. I'd like to see Shabazz play more, but I can understand why Adelman, seeing Shabazz in practice every day, has kept him on the bench as we have been competing for a playoff spot. Adelman gave Budinger 20 minutes a game his rookie season so the truth is that Adelman will give rookies significant minutes and the fact he hasn't probably says more about Shabazz than it does about Adelman. Getting back to the initial post in this thread, I definitely don't see Shabazz in Wiggins class.

In my view, the question isn't whether Shabazz is as good as Wiggins; he's not and even if he is then the team that takes Wiggins in the draft will be making a big mistake. I can also understand why Adelman hasn't played Shabazz much. What I still can't understand or forgive is Flip's decision to draft him with McCollum, Hardaway, Burke, the Greek Freak and MCW on the board. That was my view last summer on draft day and history thus far supports that view.

I admit that ultimately I'm a performance and stat guy, lip. not an eye test guy...sometimes to a fault. And I agree that Muhammad will never have the physical tools Wiggins has. But I just can't agree with your definitive statement that Shabazz "can't do it in the NBA". We just don't know that, because our dinosaur coach hasn't given him the same chance that every other NBA coach has given his first rounder. In fact, his scoring efficiency in the one game where Adelman did give Shabazz meaningful minutes leads me to the exact opposite conclusion.

And I'm also not on board with the argument that because Adelman sees Muhammad every day in practice, he is correct in leaving him on the bench. After all, Rick sees the same JJ Barea in every game that we see, and yet he continues to allow him to torpedo our playoff chances by giving him significant crunch time minutes in lieu of Ricky Rubio. I find Adelman's choices this year indefensible.

Sorry long, but your first post literally says Shabazz = Wiggins and you state the only real difference between the two are the 4 character issues you brought up because the stats say they are virtually the same. They just aren't the same. Character issues don't stop good to great players from being drafted high (i.e. Cousins). You could argue they cost him a few spots, but he still went top 5 because he was a potential all-star. Like I said, if you want to make a post about Adelman needing to play him more, fine, but don't dig your holes deeper when there is no comparison beyond the stats. Using single game examples certainly doesn't help the argument either. Bazz is stuck behind Brewer, Bud, LRMAM and possibly Hummel, but I don't think the last one as much given how Adelman played the Blazers game. He doesn't have the handle for a 2, so there just isn't time to make for him while we are competing for a playoff spot. Once the playoffs become out of reach, I think you'll see more of him.

khans2k5 wrote:Sorry long, but your first post literally says Shabazz = Wiggins and you state the only real difference between the two are the 4 character issues you brought up because the stats say they are virtually the same. They just aren't the same. Character issues don't stop good to great players from being drafted high (i.e. Cousins). You could argue they cost him a few spots, but he still went top 5 because he was a potential all-star. Like I said, if you want to make a post about Adelman needing to play him more, fine, but don't dig your holes deeper when there is no comparison beyond the stats. Using single game examples certainly doesn't help the argument either. Bazz is stuck behind Brewer, Bud, LRMAM and possibly Hummel, but I don't think the last one as much given how Adelman played the Blazers game. He doesn't have the handle for a 2, so there just isn't time to make for him while we are competing for a playoff spot. Once the playoffs become out of reach, I think you'll see more of him.

Good point, khans. I meant to bring out that their respective college stats are identical, but I can see how it may be interpreted that I was saying they are similar players also. They clearly are not. One gets his points effortlessly, while the other labors to get his...sometimes even in a clumsy fashion. But my point remains that they get their points at the same rate and with the same efficiency, and scoring is what our bench needs. And that Adelman is pig-headed.

I really struggle with the concept of being stuck behind Brewer, Bud, LRMAM and Hummel, whose respective PERs are an astonishing 11.56, 7.07, 8.91 and 9.27...not exactly the Mt. Rushmore of the NBA!
I couldn't agree more that conclusions cannot be drawn based on one game, but unfortunately it's the only NBA experience Adelman has allowed us to draw conclusions from.

I agree with you that Shabazz will get more minutes as playoffs become out of reach. I would argue that time is now, being 6 games out of a playoff spot with 2 key starters injured.

longstrangetrip wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

In my view, the question isn't whether Shabazz is as good as Wiggins; he's not and even if he is then the team that takes Wiggins in the draft will be making a big mistake. I can also understand why Adelman hasn't played Shabazz much. What I still can't understand or forgive is Flip's decision to draft him with McCollum, Hardaway, Burke, the Greek Freak and MCW on the board. That was my view last summer on draft day and history thus far supports that view.

Damn - I didn't know we could have had MCW. Think of a backcourt with him and Rubio. That would have been crazy.

Bleed, my recollection was that there wasn't much support for MCW on this (or the ESPN) board when our turn came up because of his poor shooting. And he has shot pretty much as he was projected to...39% overall and 29% on threes. Combine his shooting with his 3.5 turnovers per game, and he never would have gotten off Adelman's bench. And if he did play with Rubio, defenses wouldn't have to respect the outside shot at all.

I agree. I wanted KCP. If I had to do it over I would go with the Greek Freak.

I think College player evaluation is so messed up now, this thread is bringing out why it is such a difficult job. All NBA prospects are going to have one year of college ball to evaluate their game. It is insane to think that the same parameters which were being used even 10 years ago apply now. The fact of the matter is that the NBA is now part of the teaching portion of a player's development. This used to happen at the end of high school and into their 4 year college experiences. This means that there will be more busts and more surprising success stories depending on the infrastructure for player development on an NBA team. I agree with the sentiment that Wiggins has more raw athleticism. But I have always been uncomfortable with people wholesale making any statements about these one and done players. No one here really knows enough about Shabazz because we simply don't have enough material to judge his game. He needs to play, just like Williams needed to play. This franchise been on the delusional train for a couple of years now that we should be focused on contending (with a non-contender roster) rather than acquiring and developing our potential assets. Shabazz needs development, I believe Wiggins may need even more development coming into the league. The real question is can our front office support these young athletes to become great? Right now I am not so sure.

bleedspeed177 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

bleedspeed177 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

In my view, the question isn't whether Shabazz is as good as Wiggins; he's not and even if he is then the team that takes Wiggins in the draft will be making a big mistake. I can also understand why Adelman hasn't played Shabazz much. What I still can't understand or forgive is Flip's decision to draft him with McCollum, Hardaway, Burke, the Greek Freak and MCW on the board. That was my view last summer on draft day and history thus far supports that view.

Damn - I didn't know we could have had MCW. Think of a backcourt with him and Rubio. That would have been crazy.

Bleed, my recollection was that there wasn't much support for MCW on this (or the ESPN) board when our turn came up because of his poor shooting. And he has shot pretty much as he was projected to...39% overall and 29% on threes. Combine his shooting with his 3.5 turnovers per game, and he never would have gotten off Adelman's bench. And if he did play with Rubio, defenses wouldn't have to respect the outside shot at all.

I agree. I wanted KCP. If I had to do it over I would go with the Greek Freak.

I'm late to the bandwagon, bleed, but I am solidly on board with the Freak. I didn't realize that he has grown 3 inches in the last year, so he is really just getting used to playing at nearly 6'10". His length and athleticism are mind-boggling, and he is already a more than competent on the ball defender. After he fills out and fully develops his offensive game, it's not inconceivable that he could turn out to be the star of this draft class. I can't fault Flip too much though, because foreign players can be such a crap shoot. Congrats to the Bucks though for taking a chance.

longstrangetrip wrote:

I agree. I wanted KCP. If I had to do it over I would go with the Greek Freak.

I'm late to the bandwagon, bleed, but I am solidly on board with the Freak. I didn't realize that he has grown 3 inches in the last year, so he is really just getting used to playing at nearly 6'10". His length and athleticism are mind-boggling, and he is already a more than competent on the ball defender. After he fills out and fully develops his offensive game, it's not inconceivable that he could turn out to be the star of this draft class. I can't fault Flip too much though, because foreign players can be such a crap shoot. Congrats to the Bucks though for taking a chance.