Kevin Love

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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Kevin Love

Post by Camden [enjin:6601484] »

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
Camden wrote:Wait wait wait. Kevin Love isn't a star though.

Lmao you people kill me. He plays great (40/14), people jump back on the wagon. He has a 20/10 game one day and all of a sudden he's not. Make up your minds.



Still not as good as Ricky Rubio...


All jokes aside, Ricky's been playing great basketball the last several games. Looks confident in his scoring ability and has picked his spots to shoot correctly also. Boy oh boy we need that to continue.
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longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
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Re: Kevin Love

Post by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564] »

The Rage Monster wrote:Love is a great player, I'll even agree you could use the term superstar, that said I would still not hesitate to trade him for the right price. My basic argument here is he is incredibly valuable because he is a superstar (which is why I believe we could get a lot back for him) but not all superstars are created equal. I'll use Chris Paul and the Clippers as an example.

Using PER to compare players (if they're within a point I'll call them equal): Love = CP3, Martin = Griffin, Pek = Redick, Rubio = Jordan, Brewer is 4 points better than Dudley, and Cunningham is 4 points worse than Crawford as the first guy off the bench. Basically this is to simply show the individual players make the teams approximately equal. At the current Clippers would be firmly in the playoffs and we would be lucky to even be in the playoff picture.

So what's the difference? I'd say it's the superstar. CP3 is consistent throughout the game but can take his play to the next level when the game is on the line which leads the team to victory. Love is an incredibly consistent who can help keep a team in a game but down the stretch against good teams he is unable to significantly raise his level of play and lead the team to a win.

There's one important flaw in your analysis, rage...PER is only a measure of offensive performance and rebounding. It doesn't take defense into consideration. I think most NBA followers would say the Wolves and Clippers are fairly even in offense and rebounding...in fact I would give the Wolves a slight edge. So the PER comparisons you cite make sense...from an offensive standpoint only. But by any measure except steals, the Clippers are a far better defensive team. We saw two fairly well matched teams in their first meeting this year, and the Clippers prevailed in the end because of their superior defense.

Love/CP3 is a great example. They are have different strengths offensively, but they have a similar positive offensive impact so it makes sense that their PERs would be similar. But because Paul is so far superior to Love on defense, nobody would argue that they are equal overall contributors.
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Kevin Love

Post by Camden [enjin:6601484] »

Love's defense is much better than it gets credit now-a-days. I'm not arguing that it's LeBron or Paul George-like, but it's to the point where it looks average in my opinion. I think it's been such a negative about his game since he started getting big minutes, but it's much improved this year. Average on defense, superb on offense.

Defense and passing have been the two biggest differences in his game from this year and last year (last healthy year).
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longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
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Re: Kevin Love

Post by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564] »

Camden wrote:Love's defense is much better than it gets credit now-a-days. I'm not arguing that it's LeBron or Paul George-like, but it's to the point where it looks average in my opinion. I think it's been such a negative about his game since he started getting big minutes, but it's much improved this year. Average on defense, superb on offense.

Defense and passing have been the two biggest differences in his game from this year and last year (last healthy year).

I don't know, cam, I see Love as far below average on defense. I agree with you that he has taken his passing game to a new level this year, but he disappoints me with his defense. The one aspect of his defense that I like is his ability to "show". He does that at a very high level and generally hustles back in time to not get beat. But around the basket his defensive philosophy seems to be "don't foul", and as a result we seem to give up more easy layups than most teams. Don't get me wrong...I don't want Kevin getting in foul trouble. But there are times when a hard foul against a poor foul shooter is the best strategy, and Kevin seldom does it. He also is below average at guarding stretch 4's (he would have no chance stopping Kevin Love!) and I have been disappointment with both him and Pek this year on their lack of effective help defense.

He's still the best PF in the game because of his scoring, rebounding and passing. But I'm just not a fan of his defense at all.
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Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
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Re: Kevin Love

Post by Q12543 [enjin:6621299] »

longstrangetrip wrote:
Camden wrote:Love's defense is much better than it gets credit now-a-days. I'm not arguing that it's LeBron or Paul George-like, but it's to the point where it looks average in my opinion. I think it's been such a negative about his game since he started getting big minutes, but it's much improved this year. Average on defense, superb on offense.

Defense and passing have been the two biggest differences in his game from this year and last year (last healthy year).

I don't know, cam, I see Love as far below average on defense. I agree with you that he has taken his passing game to a new level this year, but he disappoints me with his defense. The one aspect of his defense that I like is his ability to "show". He does that at a very high level and generally hustles back in time to not get beat. But around the basket his defensive philosophy seems to be "don't foul", and as a result we seem to give up more easy layups than most teams. Don't get me wrong...I don't want Kevin getting in foul trouble. But there are times when a hard foul against a poor foul shooter is the best strategy, and Kevin seldom does it. He also is below average at guarding stretch 4's (he would have no chance stopping Kevin Love!) and I have been disappointment with both him and Pek this year on their lack of effective help defense.

He's still the best PF in the game because of his scoring, rebounding and passing. But I'm just not a fan of his defense at all.



Well, it depends on how comprehensive you define defense. If it's shot blocking and close outs on shooters, he's not very good. If you look at the whole picture though, including limiting free throws, creating turnovers, and limiting second chance points, he's actually very solid. He's one of the best defensive rebounders in the NBA and his lack of fouls not only keeps him in the game for offense, but it also forces other players to finish the shot as opposed to getting a free trip to the line. We're ranked 10th in defensive efficiency. A lot of it is because of Kevin Love.

The problem is that Pekovic has the redundant weaknesses defensively, which means that we give up a high FG% at and around the rim. Even when Pek has a beat on a guy driving to the hoop, his outstretched arm is never quite long enough to get a piece of the ball.

I personally think they need to get Dieng in the game sooner and nibble at some of Cunninham's minutes. When Cunningham comes in for Pek, we're even worse at protecting the rim. I think some of Dieng's rawness can be better hidden if he's out there with Love and a couple of other starters.
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Kevin Love

Post by Camden [enjin:6601484] »

Coach K's a huge fan of Love. Even calls him one of the stars in the NBA. Guess there's a few on this board who would disagree with him... HA.

Here's the full article: http://www.startribune.com/sports/wolves/235896841.html
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longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
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Re: Kevin Love

Post by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564] »

Camden wrote:Coach K's a huge fan of Love. Even calls him one of the stars in the NBA. Guess there's a few on this board who would disagree with him... HA.

Here's the full article: http://www.startribune.com/sports/wolves/235896841.html


A little advice, Cam...never cite an article by Grandpa Sports (Sid Hartman)...Sid hasn't broken any news since the Nixon administration! In this article Coach K says he loves Kevin. that Kevin is committed to his game , and that he is a great scorer and rebounder. I don't think anyone on this board would disagree that Kevin is committed to his game and is a great scorer and rebounder. And ranking in the top 5 in scoring and rebounding certainly qualifies him as a star in the NBA.

I did notice that Coach K didn't compliment Kevin's defense.
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Kevin Love

Post by Camden [enjin:6601484] »

longstrangetrip wrote:
Camden wrote:Coach K's a huge fan of Love. Even calls him one of the stars in the NBA. Guess there's a few on this board who would disagree with him... HA.

Here's the full article: http://www.startribune.com/sports/wolves/235896841.html


A little advice, Cam...never cite an article by Grandpa Sports (Sid Hartman)...Sid hasn't broken any news since the Nixon administration! In this article Coach K says he loves Kevin. that Kevin is committed to his game , and that he is a great scorer and rebounder. I don't think anyone on this board would disagree that Kevin is committed to his game and is a great scorer and rebounder. And ranking in the top 5 in scoring and rebounding certainly qualifies him as a star in the NBA.

I did notice that Coach K didn't compliment Kevin's defense.


I wasn't meaning to link it to back up my thought on Love's defense lol. I just put a link in the Kevin Love thread because Coach K was saying some good things about him in that article. My fault, I should have said that in my comment since we were talking about Kevin's defense prior.

And there are people on this board that have said Love isn't a star, which I'll likely continue to bring up because it's an absurd statement. Your last statement is exactly true. Top-5 in scoring and rebounding yet there's Wolves fans who won't even recognize him as a top talent in this league. Yikes.
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WildWolf2813
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Re: Kevin Love

Post by WildWolf2813 »

I shrug off Love to an extent because of his defense and let's be honest, this team will never be without a star PF. From Laettner to Gugliotta to KG to Big Al to Love, we've been spoiled at that position. I don't see that changing once Love is gone. We know PF's. We just don't know anything else.

I also think the team falling apart the way it did when Rubio tore his ACL despite Love playing out of his mind was a huge red flag on Love.
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Lipoli390
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Re: Kevin Love

Post by Lipoli390 »

Cam -- I don't think there is anyone on this board who doesn't recognize Love as a top talent in the League. He's the NBA's best rebounder and currently one of its leading scorers. His rebounding alone makes him a top talent. Is he a star? I guess it depends on how you define star. I tend to take a narrow view and limit the star label to those who (1) are great on both ends of the floor like Chris Paul, Paul George, LeBron, etc., and (2) routinely draw double and triple teams on the offensive end and who can take control of a game offensively off the dribble. I don't think Love qualifies as a star under those criteria. That doesn't mean he's not a great player. And I acknowledge that Love can definitely be considered a star under a reasonable alternative definition of that term. I'm on the fence and have, in fact, referred to Love as a star earlier this season.

But I'm sure we all agree that Love is a great player and the best player on this team. He's clearly a max player and should have been given a 5-year deal, which I said at the time. I'm just thankful that McHale made the Mayo deal to get him.
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