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Re: Time for Dieng and Pek to swap roles
Posted: Mon Nov 17, 2014 7:59 pm
by WildWolf2813
monsterpile wrote:WildWolf2813 wrote:the problem I have with this idea is that I think Dieng's ceiling is that of a backup center. It's not as if he's 20 and developing; he's 24. He really struggles on basic post up plays. He can block shots no doubt, but man it is cringeworthy seeing him give the center so much room inside to dominate.
Given how everything has fallen apart, I guess I just don't see any of these guys really learning anything this year that will help them, especially when the most pivotal developmental tool in Rubio isn't there.
Um Dieng is already a legit backup center. Dude is putting up 8 points almost 7 rebs and 1.4 blocks a game. He isn't fouling a ton which is a problem with alot of young backup bigs. If you don't think he can get better I don't know what to tell you. So what if he is24 thats not that old especially for a big. Dieng just looks awkward doing stuff he is decent at he likely will always be that part of it is the way he moves. I think his post defense is actually better than I expected it to be although my expectations were actually pretty low. His team defense is struggling right now, but thats partly because the Wolves are struggling badly also.
If Pek isn't right he should sit and get right. If he can play I don't really care if he starts or comes off the bench I just want him to play no more minutes than he is playing right now and probably a few less. For all Pek's struggles (and yeah its been tough) the guy is still getting to the line at his same rate while nailing FTs at a high percentage and his rebound rate is better than any year so far in his career. I'm not giving up on Pek the dude can still play if healthy.
The problem with Dieng is that he still sucks defensively. I love Dieng, don't get me wrong, but he's gotta figure that part out otherwise he'll merely look the part, and you'd rather have guys that merely look the part come off the bench.
I wanna see him get better no doubt, but his man to man needs to improve big time.
Re: Time for Dieng and Pek to swap roles
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:02 am
by Carlos Danger
WildWolf2813 wrote:The problem with Dieng is that he still sucks defensively. I love Dieng, don't get me wrong, but he's gotta figure that part out otherwise he'll merely look the part, and you'd rather have guys that merely look the part come off the bench.
I wanna see him get better no doubt, but his man to man needs to improve big time.
?? Defense is what's been getting Gorgui on the court. Check out his Defensive box plus/minus from Basketball Reference's advanced stats. Dieng was second only to Turiaf on last year's team and is the best on the team this year in that stat. There are a few other guys I'd point to on this team who "suck defensively" before I'd worry about Dieng IMO.
Re: Time for Dieng and Pek to swap roles
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 6:30 am
by MikkeMan
I think defensive box plus/minus doesn't take account on how well you defend your own man. Nobody hasn't questioned Dieng's ability to play team defense but his man to man defense is still quite awful. Of course sample size from this season is still quite small but his numbers so far are quite terrible. (stats are once again from 82games.com and they won't yet contain last 3 losses)
Opponent C stats per 48 minutes against Dieng:
Season FGA eFG% FTA iFG T/O Pts
14-15 19.2 .580 5.4 44% 3.4 24.9
13-14 16.6 .528 7.1 51% 3.2 22.4
Even though Dieng's numbers were little better last year, they were still quite bad. And if you compare his opponent stats against how Pek's opponents have played there is huge difference:
Opponent C stats per 48 minutes against Pek:
Season FGA eFG% FTA iFG T/O Pts
14-15 17.2 .467 4.8 49% 3.0 19.8
13-14 12.8 .551 3.3 44% 3.1 16.3
Re: Time for Dieng and Pek to swap roles
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 9:11 am
by Carlos Danger
Mikkeman wrote:I think defensive box plus/minus doesn't take account on how well you defend your own man. Nobody hasn't questioned Dieng's ability to play team defense but his man to man defense is still quite awful. Of course sample size from this season is still quite small but his numbers so far are quite terrible. (stats are once again from 82games.com and they won't yet contain last 3 losses)
Opponent C stats per 48 minutes against Dieng:
Season FGA eFG% FTA iFG T/O Pts
14-15 19.2 .580 5.4 44% 3.4 24.9
13-14 16.6 .528 7.1 51% 3.2 22.4
Even though Dieng's numbers were little better last year, they were still quite bad. And if you compare his opponent stats against how Pek's opponents have played there is huge difference:
Opponent C stats per 48 minutes against Pek:
Season FGA eFG% FTA iFG T/O Pts
14-15 17.2 .467 4.8 49% 3.0 19.8
13-14 12.8 .551 3.3 44% 3.1 16.3
Can I ask what you are pointing to specifically to say that Dieng has been "quite terrible" compared to Pek this year? I looked up your stats per 82 games. And per my quick comparison:
Opponents shot 5% worse on inside shots vs. Dieng than Pek (44 vs. 49%)
Dieng is rebounding at a higher rate than Pek (17.2 vs. 14.7)
Opponets rebound at a lower rate vs. Dieng compared to Pek (11.9 vs. 12.6)
Dieng has a lot more blocks than Pek (4.6 vs. 0.5)
Opponents turn it over more against Dieng than Pek (3.4 vs. 3)
While I agree Dieng is not playing as well so far this year as he looked last year, I'm still not seeing anything to draw the conclusion that Dieng is a terrible defender compared to Pek.
Re: Time for Dieng and Pek to swap roles
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:23 am
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
The bottom-line is that our defense sucks, Dieng included. Everyone is to blame. And while Dieng does well in some of the various box-score related stats, the fact is he didn't have a big impact on our team defense last year when he stepped into the starting lineup for Pek and he hasn't had a big impact this year either. He needs to get better.
It will be interesting to see how things look once Dieng, Young, Wiggins, and Rubio are together in the starting lineup (again, I'm assuming - perhaps incorrectly - that Pek will no longer be our starting C). They have the talent and physical gifts to defend, but it has as much to do with coaching, schemes, and decision making as it does physical abilities.
Re: Time for Dieng and Pek to swap roles
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:45 am
by Carlos Danger
Q12543 wrote:The bottom-line is that our defense sucks, Dieng included.
Nobody and I mean NOBODY can disagree with that statement. There certainly is a team defense element to all of this. But, I will just point out two more things:
1.) Adelman was not a guy to play rookies. The fact that Dieng got minutes last year tells me he earned it. We were trying to compete last year - not develop.
2.) As a second year guy, there is no question Dieng still has a lot to learn. But you probably have to go back to 2009 (Rubio) to find another draft pick that's played better than him so far. (Granted, that's not saying much considering some of our picks - but still!)
Re: Time for Dieng and Pek to swap roles
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 11:54 am
by alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]
Carlos Danger wrote:Q12543 wrote:The bottom-line is that our defense sucks, Dieng included.
Nobody and I mean NOBODY can disagree with that statement. There certainly is a team defense element to all of this. But, I will just point out two more things:
1.) Adelman was not a guy to play rookies. The fact that Dieng got minutes last year tells me he earned it. We were trying to compete last year - not develop.
2.) As a second year guy, there is no question Dieng still has a lot to learn. But you probably have to go back to 2009 (Rubio) to find another draft pick that's played better than him so far. (Granted, that's not saying much considering some of our picks - but still!)
Adelman played Ricky plenty as a rookie. Dieng looked a hell of a lot different in the end of the season then he did at the start that could explain his not getting playing time. Bazz wasn't in the shape he was this year and still hasn't improved his flaws he's had forever.
Re: Time for Dieng and Pek to swap roles
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:23 pm
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
Carlos Danger wrote:Q12543 wrote:The bottom-line is that our defense sucks, Dieng included.
Nobody and I mean NOBODY can disagree with that statement. There certainly is a team defense element to all of this. But, I will just point out two more things:
1.) Adelman was not a guy to play rookies. The fact that Dieng got minutes last year tells me he earned it. We were trying to compete last year - not develop.
2.) As a second year guy, there is no question Dieng still has a lot to learn.
But you probably have to go back to 2009 (Rubio) to find another draft pick that's played better than him so far. (Granted, that's not saying much considering some of our picks - but still!)
Yup, I'm a huge Dieng fan and loved that pick from the very beginning. I was even giddy enough to declare him potentially the next Ben Wallace in terms of his ability to get defensive rebounds, blocks, and steals. He's halfway there in terms of the box score stuff, but he's got a ton of work to do on how to wall up and stay strong on the interior.
Re: Time for Dieng and Pek to swap roles
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:33 pm
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
Well, we're going to get a chance to see Dieng in the starting lineup for at least the next 3 games with Pek out with the sprained wrist...man, that guy is fragile! The way he has been playing, Dieng/Turiaf will not be a step down. But since Thad is out until Sunday, I feel bad for Flip coaching the next two games with three starters out...especially since the other 2 starters are a 19-year-od rookie and a vet that you don't know whether he's going to show up night to night.
I think this is going to be Pek's Wally Pipp moment. I look for Dieng to seize this opportunity and be the starting center going forward, even when Pek comes back.
Re: Time for Dieng and Pek to swap roles
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:49 pm
by Carlos Danger
longstrangetrip wrote:I think this is going to be Pek's Wally Pipp moment. I look for Dieng to seize this opportunity and be the starting center going forward, even when Pek comes back.
It's a chance for him, that's for sure. I must caution everyone though because playing with LaVine at PG vs. Ricky may not give us a true picture of these players (that applies to everyone). I think a healthy Pek and a healthy Rubio were pretty good together.
But then that brings me to Turiaf...what's his story? Knowing Pek is going to be hobbled probably all year, we need another big man that can stay healthy. I hope Ronny can be that guy...but he's barely played the last couple years and still gets hurt! If he can't show he can contribute soon, I wonder if there will be a series of moves. Dieng still can get into foul trouble too often, so you can't always depend on him to log big minutes yet.