Minnesota Sports Forum

LST, Start Dieng at PF and bring Young in as a super-sub off the bench. He'd still get the majority of minutes at PF, but it would be later in halves when teams tend to go smaller anyway. Dieng was actually a better rebounder than Love last season and he's most certainly a better weakside defender. Problem solved.

I doubt we would get equal value for Pek in a trade and he's really the only guy on our squad not named Kevin Martin that is a threat to score 20+ points on any given night.

Even if Pek and Thad start, Gorgui can can come off the bench anytime if there is a bad matchup. The beauty of that trio is they all bring different looks on defense. Pek brings the strength and takes up a lot of space, Thad brings range and tenacity, and Gorgui brings rim protection. It will be up to Flip to use them properly night to night.

Q12543 wrote:LST, Start Dieng at PF and bring Young in as a super-sub off the bench. He'd still get the majority of minutes at PF, but it would be later in halves when teams tend to go smaller anyway. Dieng was actually a better rebounder than Love last season and he's most certainly a better weakside defender. Problem solved.

I doubt we would get equal value for Pek in a trade and he's really the only guy on our squad not named Kevin Martin that is a threat to score 20+ points on any given night.

Liking it

LST, you're essentially arguing that Young's not as good on defense as Love and that's extremely far from the truth, and downright laughable to me.

Our starting bigs may not be traditional rim protectors, but Pek's a load in the middle able to battle against all centers on defense and Young's just a good overall defender even without the blocked shots (keep in mind he forces TOs in other ways: steals, charges taken, etc.). Pek struggles guarding the P&R, as did Love, but Young's one of the best P&R defenders in basketball. Love was horrendous in transition defense, spending time arguing for a whistle on offense instead of getting back. Young is always back. Actually, I believe him getting back as often and early as he does hurts his RPG numbers a bit. Just a theory that I'm looking forward to seeing if true or not.

Anyways, let's not focus on "interior defense" as the only aspect of defense. I agree it's important, but there are so many other aspects of defense. Pek/Love were a poor pairing on defense. Pek/Young is a huge upgrade on defense. We might not block a ton of shots, but there will be a bigger impact on defense coming from the PF position. That's guaranteed.

Does anyone have a good site with defensive information?

I am looking at http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefense.html but the caption over the column states: Field Goal Percentage of the opposing player's or teams shots at the rim while being defended.

So by reading this does it mean if you play in the paint, and your fellow teammate is being scored on in the paint (you do not help but stay on your man) you get a "credit" for allowing the scoring. If this is the case, Peks inability to provide help defense is magnified by teams shooting on Love in the paint.

Is this the stat everyone keeps talking about to prove Pek is bad defensively?

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:LST, Start Dieng at PF and bring Young in as a super-sub off the bench. He'd still get the majority of minutes at PF, but it would be later in halves when teams tend to go smaller anyway. Dieng was actually a better rebounder than Love last season and he's most certainly a better weakside defender. Problem solved.

I doubt we would get equal value for Pek in a trade and he's really the only guy on our squad not named Kevin Martin that is a threat to score 20+ points on any given night.

Liking it

I agree that starting Dieng at PF would improve us defensively...I think that would be a great pairing defensively with Pek. But I don't like it for two reasons. First, I'm still not convinced that Gorgui is going to be successful as a PF on the offensive side of the ball. When he was playing next to Fesenko in SL, he looked completely out of place. But then when he got back to his natural center position in FIBA, h looked comfortable again and put up great stats. Maybe he'll prove me wrong on this, but right now I don't see him as an NBA PF.

Secondly, I'm much higher on Bennett than most, and want to see him get a lot of minutes at PF. If Gorgui and Young are both getting minutes at PF, there's not much room for AB.

apollotsg wrote:Does anyone have a good site with defensive information?

I am looking at http://stats.nba.com/playerTrackingDefense.html but the caption over the column states: Field Goal Percentage of the opposing player's or teams shots at the rim while being defended.

So by reading this does it mean if you play in the paint, and your fellow teammate is being scored on in the paint (you do not help but stay on your man) you get a "credit" for allowing the scoring. If this is the case, Peks inability to provide help defense is magnified by teams shooting on Love in the paint.

Is this the stat everyone keeps talking about to prove Pek is bad defensively?

You ask a good question, Apollo...I don't think anyone knows how this stat is calculated. That's one of the big problems with defensive stats. Defense is much more of a team concept, and your stats can be significantly helped or hurt by teammates. But regardless, my eye test told me that the Wolves struggled with interior defense last year, and based on Thad Young's stats, I don't expect us to be any better this year.

Cam, I don't know whether we are better off with Young rather than Love on defense...I think it's a tossup. You're correct that Young is clearly superior in PnR defense and provides more steals. But I would argue that Love's bigger bulk and vastly superior rebounding offsets Thad's advantages. And both are horrible rim protectors. I have a difficult time concluding that we are clearly better on interior defense with Young. I hope you're right, but the statistical information doesn't support your assertion.

I totally agree with Cam that Young will improve Wolves defense compared to Love. In addition to improved P&R and transition defense, I believe that Young does much better job against jump shots and drives than Love did. Basically only thing where Young struggles is help defense against drives and I believe that won't be so critical this year since Wiggins should be better defender than Brewer.

I really believe that both Pek and Young will be OK in defending post ups because both will limit opponents post up chances in their own way. Pek by being so strong that it is very hard for his man to get position close to basket and Young by playing passing lines.

"Cam, I don't know whether we are better off with Young rather than Love on defense...I think it's a tossup. You're correct that Young is clearly superior in PnR defense and provides more steals. But I would argue that Love's bigger bulk and vastly superior rebounding offsets Thad's advantages. And both are horrible rim protectors. I have a difficult time concluding that we are clearly better on interior defense with Young. I hope you're right, but the statistical information doesn't support your assertion."

So, Love having a bulkier body and rebounding the ball at a high clip are more important than Young playing elite P&R defense, good perimeter defense, transition defense and creating turnovers (steals, charges and other offensive fouls)? That's what you're saying. Again, that's laughable.

You went right back to interior defense... Ignoring other facets of the game is lazy, but to each his own.

Let me guess, you think Bennett's a better defender than Young too, right? Please post that and confirm to me that you haven't watched Young at all.

"If we can get a good return for Pek..." What is that going to look like? This team for the coming season is set or overstocked at every position. I don't see the likeliness of any trade making any sense that brings back a good return. Pek. Isn't going anywhere.

Also trading Pek and handing over the C spot to Dieng who has shown ability but still unproven, turiaf who is an injury waiting to happen and Fesenko who has played 135 career games to improve interior defense and add to the crowded issues at the other positions? It makes no sense. Yes let's get rid of a center that puts up 18-9 and gets guys in foul trouble and doesn't even need plays run for him. Name the PFs that would fit really well next. To Pek the list is likely small. The depth behind Deing in these scenarios moving Pek is not very good either this year and possibly down the road.

Defense? Flip said he wants to use some zone defense and with. Some of the guys on this team it makes a lot of sense. No matter the scheme Thad, Wiggins, Rubio and Brewer are gonna be a terror taking the ball away from teams. Thad is ELITE taking the ball away at any position but as a PF that could really improve defense for the entire team. On Thad's defense yes I agree with Cam I think part of Thad's lack of rebounding is he gets back on defense or closing out on a jumpshooter instead of just boarding. In some cases it might be a bad move but in a lot of cases it might be a better basketball play. If you watch highlights of Thad's game you can see he is physically able and also aggressive enough to rip balls away from guys. I don't think he sucks at rebounding he just plays the game different. Thad's ability to switch out on a perimeter player is a big boost to team defense. I watched some highlights of a Sixers Bucks game and Thad picked clean the PG and took it the distance. I just think we should see what these guys can bring on that end before judging them. Who was Thad playing with on the Sixers last year? Hawes? My guess is he isn't steller at defending the paint and the Sixers were terrible at everything so that's worth noting.

I'll add a bit more about Thad here. Thad can be a terror in transition with or without the ball. I think people are going to be pleasantly surprised at his passing ability. People have talked about Bennet being somewhat like Barkley or Larry Johnson with the ability to handle the ball well for a bigger guy. Thad reminds me of that in his highlights too except he is a different athlete. Not the power guys like Barkely or LJ but damn he can get up the court fast pass or finish. This is going too far but he is sorta like a PF version of Manu in transition. He gets some. Of those transition plays off steals or because of deflections. That might not makeup for his lack of rebounding but it makes up for some of it. In the halfcourt he is really quick in the post PFs have trouble with his quickness. He isn't a banger but he isn't afraid of contact. His finishing around the rim has sort of an Al Jefferson feel to it because he finds a way to get off his shot and its not always conventional. I'm not suggesting he is anywhere near the post scorer Al is but has some shades of that same game to make a rough comparison. I don't think Flip will have him shooting 3's but he has plenty of range and whoever is guarding him has torespecthis jumpshot which allows him to get into other spots for easy looks. He is really good at finding open spots on the floor.

I think sometimes we get too hung up on what guys can't do that we. Forget what they can do. Pek isn't perfect but damn 18-9 and a guy that does everything you ask of him is pretty damn good. Thad is likely a similar type PF although I think his ceiling as a 2 way player is higher. Martin can't guard a chair so what he can score in an efficient manner and a lot of perimeter scorers aren't good defenders. At this point like Tim said let's bring this team together and see what we can do. The only move that's likely to happen is JJ moving on and his spot filled by someone likely GR3. I won't be shocked though If JJ sticks around either but my bet is that he won't be on the roster when they play their first regular season game.