thedoper wrote:I like the idea that we are actually in a good place right now. Our "bad" contracts (Pek, Martin, JJ) could all conceivably play to the value of their contracts or could be dealt in the right circumstances. Our star is upset, but when hasn't he been? We have reasonable assets, potential (Bazz and Dieng) and a decent pick in a talented draft. This offseason is Flip's defining moment. There are lots of ways to go, but certainly I think there is reason for guarded optimism. That is if Flip doesn't kick us directly in the nuts. If we make the wrong move, I do fear there are going to be greater ramifications to the franchise. For instance, no way does it make money if we trade Love and take a step back. I believe Taylor will sell if there is an extended rebuild and I do really believe that the franchise would be a candidate for relocation. On the other hand I could see a situation where we retool and improve after moving some of our assets (even Love included) or we just roll for a season and let the Love situation play itself out.
That being said my preference if we just ignore the Love situation, build through the draft and MLE and play basketball for another year. I think this idea that we have to trade him now may not really matter. If we deal Love,
even if we get a good deal we are a team admitting that we can't keep our star. It will only seal our long term fate as a farm team for the "real" teams. My selfish desire for competitive Minnesota basketball is greater at this point then my desire to see a rebuild, assess our potential and then in 5 years see another star leave again when they become too good for Minnesota. Ultimately I say we keep him and let him make the decision to opt out and sign elsewhere. If I were Flip I would go sit down with Love and say, "It's one year, play your ass off, keep your mouth shut, and if/when you leave we will only have great things to say about you and your professionalism" With him gone we're looking at a rebuild either way, what difference does a year make unless you think that Embid, Wiggins or Parker is a once in a generation player. And there is no guarantee that we can even get one of those guys in a deal. Fuck making Golden State or Chicago contenders as far as I am concerned. He's not going to Philly, Cleveland or Milwaukee. Let him man up and play out the contract he signed instead of filling the role of the worried, desperate franchise the national media wants us to be.
I understand what you're saying here Doper, I really do. And part of me feels exactly the same way you do. But the flaw in your stance is that we have a window right now to fully maximize the return on Love. If he walks for nothing after next year we are completely screwed. We messed up the Love thing a long time ago. I think it's better to move forward with a nice bounty and the unique opportunity it presents right now. It's not the perfect scenario, but it would give us hope both in the near and distant future.
Cool, I only agree with you if we get a great deal back for him. Getting the #8 pick and Mclemore does nothing to push this team into the PO's. You have to get a top 5 or 6 along with the opportunity for another top ten in the future along with some other assets. If not, let him play it out, and we will suck for a year and get that same pick two years from now. I would rather watch the wolves be competitive next season, and worry about Love in a year. I am hoping that Houston finds a way to grab Melo, because that would take away a landing spot for Love.
I understand what you're saying here Doper, I really do. And part of me feels exactly the same way you do. But the flaw in your stance is that we have a window right now to fully maximize the return on Love. If he walks for nothing after next year we are completely screwed. We messed up the Love thing a long time ago. I think it's better to move forward with a nice bounty and the unique opportunity it presents right now. It's not the perfect scenario, but it would give us hope both in the near and distant future.
From a logical business perspective I agree with you. That is what the business narrative of the NBA is. But we are an old franchise with a lot of baggage and a reputation as losers. We have been living in the "hope in the near and distant future" since this franchise began and there is nothing in our ownership and management structure to make me believe that will ever change. I am just tired of it. Fuck the narrative of what we are supposed to do. If we end up with Klay Thompson and David Lee, a bunch of chicago garbage, or Jared Sullinger and the 6 pick it will really make me wane on this franchise as a fan. We basically need top 3 and future assets or nothing. Unfortunately I just don't think that will happen. Just give me one year of really competitive basketball before another rebuild.
thedoper wrote:I like the idea that we are actually in a good place right now. Our "bad" contracts (Pek, Martin, JJ) could all conceivably play to the value of their contracts or could be dealt in the right circumstances. Our star is upset, but when hasn't he been? We have reasonable assets, potential (Bazz and Dieng) and a decent pick in a talented draft. This offseason is Flip's defining moment. There are lots of ways to go, but certainly I think there is reason for guarded optimism. That is if Flip doesn't kick us directly in the nuts. If we make the wrong move, I do fear there are going to be greater ramifications to the franchise. For instance, no way does it make money if we trade Love and take a step back. I believe Taylor will sell if there is an extended rebuild and I do really believe that the franchise would be a candidate for relocation. On the other hand I could see a situation where we retool and improve after moving some of our assets (even Love included) or we just roll for a season and let the Love situation play itself out.
That being said my preference if we just ignore the Love situation, build through the draft and MLE and play basketball for another year. I think this idea that we have to trade him now may not really matter. If we deal Love,
even if we get a good deal we are a team admitting that we can't keep our star. It will only seal our long term fate as a farm team for the "real" teams. My selfish desire for competitive Minnesota basketball is greater at this point then my desire to see a rebuild, assess our potential and then in 5 years see another star leave again when they become too good for Minnesota. Ultimately I say we keep him and let him make the decision to opt out and sign elsewhere. If I were Flip I would go sit down with Love and say, "It's one year, play your ass off, keep your mouth shut, and if/when you leave we will only have great things to say about you and your professionalism" With him gone we're looking at a rebuild either way, what difference does a year make unless you think that Embid, Wiggins or Parker is a once in a generation player. And there is no guarantee that we can even get one of those guys in a deal. Fuck making Golden State or Chicago contenders as far as I am concerned. He's not going to Philly, Cleveland or Milwaukee. Let him man up and play out the contract he signed instead of filling the role of the worried, desperate franchise the national media wants us to be.
I understand what you're saying here Doper, I really do. And part of me feels exactly the same way you do. But the flaw in your stance is that we have a window right now to fully maximize the return on Love. If he walks for nothing after next year we are completely screwed. We messed up the Love thing a long time ago. I think it's better to move forward with a nice bounty and the unique opportunity it presents right now. It's not the perfect scenario, but it would give us hope both in the near and distant future.
Cool, I only agree with you if we get a great deal back for him. Getting the #8 pick and Mclemore does nothing to push this team into the PO's. You have to get a top 5 or 6 along with the opportunity for another top ten in the future along with some other assets. If not, let him play it out, and we will suck for a year and get that same pick two years from now. I would rather watch the wolves be competitive next season, and worry about Love in a year. I am hoping that Houston finds a way to grab Melo, because that would take away a landing spot for Love.
SJ, with everybody lining up for him to make an offer, how can we not get a great deal? I agree with you that the Kings deal would be insufficient. But I can't wait to see how far some teams are willing to go.
I understand what you're saying here Doper, I really do. And part of me feels exactly the same way you do. But the flaw in your stance is that we have a window right now to fully maximize the return on Love. If he walks for nothing after next year we are completely screwed. We messed up the Love thing a long time ago. I think it's better to move forward with a nice bounty and the unique opportunity it presents right now. It's not the perfect scenario, but it would give us hope both in the near and distant future.
From a logical business perspective I agree with you. That is what the business narrative of the NBA is. But we are an old franchise with a lot of baggage and a reputation as losers. We have been living in the "hope in the near and distant future" since this franchise began and there is nothing in our ownership and management structure to make me believe that will ever change. I am just tired of it. Fuck the narrative of what we are supposed to do. If we end up with Klay Thompson and David Lee, a bunch of chicago garbage, or Jared Sullinger and the 6 pick it will really make me wane on this franchise as a fan. We basically need top 3 and future assets or nothing. Unfortunately I just
don't think that will happen. Just give me one year of really competitive basketball before another rebuild.
It's just that one year of competitive basketball probably isn't good enought to get us into the playoffs. Winning 40 games is a waste of time IMO.
Interesting arguments on both sides, but I tend to gravitate toward Cool's position of trying to maximize our return at the optimal time.
I have one question though. The last time we were in this position, our tradable asset was arguably a more valuable 2-way player, and we were not able to garner much of a return. What are the factors that are significantly different now? Put another way, why do we think we can get more for Love than we got for KG?
What hasn't been mentioned is Love because of his contract status probably holds at least some control over where he can be dealt as well. If the Wolves get some crazy offer then yeah maybe you pull the trigger but most teams end up looking like fools for trading a star player. How do we think it will be any different?
Its just another HUGE summer and it seems like we have been saying that forever now. Dieng could be the guy that changes everything for this team. If he becomes the defensive force this team has been looking for since KG left town this team could be something as early as this coming year.
I am on the fence on trading Love but the reality is despite his faults I am a HUGE fan of Love and if I was Flip I think I would say I am not trading Love and keep doing my job to improve the team and make Love want to stay.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:
It's just that one year of competitive basketball probably isn't good enought to get us into the playoffs. Winning 40 games is a waste of time IMO.
That is a fair response, but I really did enjoy being in games this year even if we couldn't close out. I don't know if I can handle talking about why our coach isn't developing Aaron Gordon's shot for a whole year or having us argue on the board that we should have taken Dante Exum over Marcus Smart (although I really do love Marcus Smart).
longstrangetrip wrote:Interesting arguments on both sides, but I tend to gravitate toward Cool's position of trying to maximize our return at the optimal time.
I have one question though. The last time we were in this position, our tradable asset was arguably a more valuable 2-way player, and we were not able to garner much of a return. What are the factors that are significantly different now? Put another way, why do we think we can get more for Love than we got for KG?
For starters, KG was 31 when we traded him. Kevin Love is 25. Six year difference equals a more significant return. The younger the star, the more valuable he is.
Not to mention this NBA is becoming all about versatility and who's more versatile than Kevin Love other than LeBron James? Nobody. The three-point shot is more relied upon today than it was a decade ago as well.
These factors combined are why we should be able to receive a much larger trade package than the one we got for KG.
monsterpile wrote:What hasn't been mentioned is Love because of his contract status probably holds at least some control over where he can be dealt as well. If the Wolves get some crazy offer then yeah maybe you pull the trigger but most teams end up looking like fools for trading a star player. How do we think it will be any different?
Its just another HUGE summer and it seems like we have been saying that forever now. Dieng could be the guy that changes everything for this team. If he becomes the defensive force this team has been looking for since KG left town this team could be something as early as this coming year.
I am on the fence on trading Love but the reality is despite his faults I am a HUGE fan of Love and if I was Flip I think I would say I am not trading Love and keep doing my job to improve the team and make Love want to stay.
Monster, I think the problem is that the Love ship has sailed. He's going to leave after this year. I think it's way too optimistic to think we will have a great year and therefore Love will reconsider. I think he's already half way out the door no matter what happens. And let's be honest, we are not going to make a dramatic improvement with our current roster and assets.
Yep, The Lovvvvvvvve Booooooaaat, has definitely sailed at his point. The gamble of keeping him in hopes of the team making a huge leap forward so he stays (the Aldridge scenario) is too big of a risk. I'm confident an amazing offer is going to come down the pike for Love and when it does even the Wolves brain trust will not be able to mess it up. Teams know the Wolves have to trade him, but they also are competing against each other, and there can be only one winner.
It would be much harder to feel bad about losing Love if he had actually led us to a playoff birth or two. Also if Love leaves I think it becomes clear who the leader of the team is, and that is Ricky Rubio. Yes his game needs to improve, but maybe if he takes on the clear leadership role he will become more aggressive on the court. He played his best games last year when key guys were down and he was forced to attack.
