Minnesota Sports Forum

BTW who is this defensive center that would make a third of peks money and only be a slight downgrade? Turiaf? who?

Martin needs to become the Wolves Manu Ginobli by starting on the bench but ending in the fourth quarter thats a much better idea then getting rid of him. This should happen next year if the wolves can get anyone that is an adequete starter for the first 9 mins of a game.

Pek should stay also because there is no better option at this point in time.

sjm34 wrote:I am not looking for picks necessarily, but one thing that Gordon does that Martin can't is create his own shot, which would be extremely helpful closing out games. I mentioned Gordon because there have been rumors and I think he is gettable.

Q PER is based mainly on offense, and I am not questioning either player on that end of the floor. What I am suggesting is that a defensive center getting paid a third of what Pek is making isn't likely to be much of a downgrade, and that would allow us to pay more for the player we never seemed to be able to find. A SG that can slash and score. While Martin is an efficient offensive player, he is a guy we can give the ball to down the stretch and go get us a basket.

Cool, while I am on the other side of the coin about coaching, I do see your point but I would counter with the question of why we weren't better than .500 for the season while this team was much healthier than most. This team certainly plays differently with those guys in the lineup, but I am not sure it translates to wins.

In regard to Ricky stepping up, I think that had more to do with him freelancing, and I think that will likely work back the other way with Pek back.

Here is the comparison between Martin and Gordon this season:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=martike02&y1=2014&p2=gordoer01&y2=2014

What's ironic is that it appears Kevin Martin is "creating more shots" than Gordon. Plus he makes just as many of them and gets to the line more frequently. And that's with Martin playing next to Pekovic and Love, two other prolific scorers. If anything, Martin is the better shot creator and scorer! Also, if you look at their FG% in clutch sitautions over at 82games.com, Martin comes out well ahead in this category too.

Now look at their Defensive Ratings. Once again, the irony is how Martin is crushing Gordon in this metric. Granted, this is a noisy stat, but Gordon plays with a guy named Anthony Davis. It's not like he has no help.

I see absolutely nothing that Gordon helps us get better at!

As for the concept of swapping out Pekovic for a more defensive Center and then re-investing Pek's salary in a major upgrade on the wing, I'm not totally opposed to that notion. It's just tough to come up with a trade that truly gives us $ for $ equal value. Pek for Gordon plus a pick isn't even close in my opinion.

Actually Q,your data says the opposite about shot creating. Look at assisted % in those clutch stats. You'll see two things. One is that Martin shoots outside almost exclusively, and the second is that he is assisted on almost all of them. That happens because Love and Pek open things up more for Martin getting him wide open looks and having Rubio doesn't hurt either. I don't doubt that Martin is a better pure shooter, but he doesn't get to the basket anymore, and it should be very clear by those stats that he isn't creating his own shots.

Gordon has definitely struggled coming back from his knee issues, but he is improving. With the limited options available to this team, I think he might be one of our better options.

With the constant switching and PnR's in the NBA, I have a hard time looking at defensive rtgs. I think you'll find Luke wasn't a bad defender last year according to the stats, and we both know that wasn't true.

I don't know where to check, but I would be curious as to how many tech ft's Martin shoots. He is our best ft shooter % wise, so it would make sense that he would be at the line for those whereas Gordon likely isn't. Gordon does get to the line at a slightly higher % of his shots.

There's not enough tech FTs to make Martin's numbers skewed anyway...

sjm34 wrote:Actually Q,your data says the opposite about shot creating. Look at assisted % in those clutch stats. You'll see two things. One is that Martin shoots outside almost exclusively, and the second is that he is assisted on almost all of them. That happens because Love and Pek open things up more for Martin getting him wide open looks and having Rubio doesn't hurt either. I don't doubt that Martin is a better pure shooter, but he doesn't get to the basket anymore, and it should be very clear by those stats that he isn't creating his own shots.

Gordon has definitely struggled coming back from his knee issues, but he is improving. With the limited options available to this team, I think he might be one of our better options.

With the constant switching and PnR's in the NBA, I have a hard time looking at defensive rtgs. I think you'll find Luke wasn't a bad defender last year according to the stats, and we both know that wasn't true.

I don't know where to check, but I would be curious as to how many tech ft's Martin shoots. He is our best ft shooter % wise, so it would make sense that he would be at the line for those whereas Gordon likely isn't. Gordon does get to the line at a slightly higher % of his shots.

Creating shots isn't just about isolation play and ball domination. It's also about being able to free oneself up for shots without the ball. I've never understood why movement without the ball somehow doesn't "count" toward being able to create a good shot for oneself. Somehow, the Carmello Anthony model of shot creation (i.e. isolate on the wing while everyone else stands around) is the only pure definition that exists to some folks. I don't get it.

Martin is an excellent cutter and understands how to use screens well to free himself up. You don't get assisted on that many shots by hiding in the corner and simply being left wide open all the time (especially when Brewer and Rubio are the other perimeter guys. Gee, which guy out of the three is the opponent most likely to stick with?). Martin is excellent at moving without the ball. That is a very good skill set to have and it's one reason he has been so consistently efficient all these years.

As for his FT%, I consider that one of his key assets. It's awesome to have a guy that's nearly automatic from the line. That comes in handy late in games when opposing teams are trying to come back from a deficit and start fouling to stop the clock. It's why I like Pek a lot too. Unlike a lot of defensive Centers out there, Pek isn't a liability in late game situations on offense. You never hear about hack-a-Pek strategies because the guy nails his FTs, as we saw against Sacramento the other night.

alexftbl8181 wrote:

sjm34 wrote:I am not looking for picks necessarily, but one thing that Gordon does that Martin can't is create his own shot, which would be extremely helpful closing out games. I mentioned Gordon because there have been rumors and I think he is gettable.

Q PER is based mainly on offense, and I am not questioning either player on that end of the floor. What I am suggesting is that a defensive center getting paid a third of what Pek is making isn't likely to be much of a downgrade, and that would allow us to pay more for the player we never seemed to be able to find. A SG that can slash and score. While Martin is an efficient offensive player, he is a guy we can give the ball to down the stretch and go get us a basket.

Cool, while I am on the other side of the coin about coaching, I do see your point but I would counter with the question of why we weren't better than .500 for the season while this team was much healthier than most. This team certainly plays differently with those guys in the lineup, but I am not sure it translates to wins.

In regard to Ricky stepping up, I think that had more to do with him freelancing, and I think that will likely work back the other way with Pek back.

The Wolves starting 5 combing everything. is one of the top 5 more effective in the entire nba.

Is Pek and Love a really bad defensive paring? Maybe. Ill contend that they're average. People site lack of "rim protection" as a slight on the wolves. True that they have the highest FG% for opponents in the paint. Does that mean Pek isn't a rim protector? maybe. But it's just a way to show that stats don't tell the whole story.

Wolves actually give up the most fastbreak opportunities in the nba by a widdde margin. As people who watch basketball know, that most fastbreaks end with a layup or dunk. That's going to make that in the paint % go wayyy up.

Is JJ's careless turnovers and bad shots that lead to all these fastbreaks contribute to the teams FG%? you betcha.


Pek is not the problem here. Don't be dumb

I'll second this

sjm34 wrote:I am not looking for picks necessarily, but one thing that Gordon does that Martin can't is create his own shot, which would be extremely helpful closing out games. I mentioned Gordon because there have been rumors and I think he is gettable.

Q PER is based mainly on offense, and I am not questioning either player on that end of the floor. What I am suggesting is that a defensive center getting paid a third of what Pek is making isn't likely to be much of a downgrade, and that would allow us to pay more for the player we never seemed to be able to find. A SG that can slash and score. While Martin is an efficient offensive player, he is a guy we can give the ball to down the stretch and go get us a basket.

Cool, while I am on the other side of the coin about coaching, I do see your point but I would counter with the question of why we weren't better than .500 for the season while this team was much healthier than most. This team certainly plays differently with those guys in the lineup, but I am not sure it translates to wins.

In regard to Ricky stepping up, I think that had more to do with him freelancing, and I think that will likely work back the other way with Pek back.

Actually SJ, I think we are on the same page. I probably wasn't clear in making my point. I think Rick should have a better record than he has when all hands are on deck. I don't understand how he is close to .500 with and without Pek and Martin. That just doesn't make sense. He's too partial to JJ, and I think this team is much better when Rubio is on the floor regardless of how much he is scoring. Q could probably find something that would back that up. I'd be playing Ricky 35 - 40 minutes every night. If you must have JJ on the floor, keep Ricky out there and let him dominate the ball.

There's a reason we can't close out games in the 4th quarter. It happens to be because Martin can't create his own shot, we stop feeding Pek and neither of them help in the effort to stopping the other team when we need to most. The Martin/Love two man game can usually get a decent shot, but we can't give Martin the ball and say get a bucket because he can't get to the rim like that anymore. We also don't use Pek hardly at all on the offensive end at the end of games and whether that is on coaching or not, it still makes him a poor option to play down the stretch because he is not going to be a huge help on the defensive end either. Pek's clutch time stats are a 106.2 offensive points per 48 minutes and a 128.4 defensive points per 48 minutes. That is a ridiculously bad differential. The whole starting lineup has a horrible differential. So they are to blame for losing all these clutch games when they are the unit out there finishing the games. Since the clutch time stats are based on there being a differential of less than 5 points in the last 5 minutes either way, that is on the starting unit for not winning those games. All you can ask of a bench is keep the game close for the starters to finish it out and our starters are horrible at finishing games.

The fact is Pek gives you plus scoring, free throw shooting % and offensive rebounding from the Center position. That is it. He is a good 1 on 1 man defender, but doesn't have the mobility to be a good PnR defender and doesn't protect the rim from the weak side at all. You know what role that fits on a good team? A 6th man big off the bench. Scoring can be made up in other ways as proven by the bench stepping up in the absence of Pek and Martin when given more minutes. We don't have any better options on the team right now, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to find any this offseason just because they give us good offensive production and mediocre to bad defensive production. We're simply out of time and money and don't have yet another season to spend seeing if Rick/Love/Pek can be good enough to carry a team to the playoffs. We have had 3 years of a Ricky/Love/Pek big 3 and on top of hardly ever being healthy together, they also are a .500 core at best when they do play together. Something has to change and I'd rather it be Pek than Ricky because Ricky is going to cost a lot less when his deal is up for decent production from the PG spot. 3 guys should be enough to carry a team with decent supporting pieces (which we have this year) to the playoffs in the West and our 3 guys aren't good enough to get the job done.

"All you can ask of a bench is keep the game close for the starters to finish it out and our starters are horrible at finishing games."

Lol I disagree. I think the job of a bench is to keep the lead the starters got the same or relatively close to what it was when they left the floor. If the starters didn't create a lead, then it's their job to keep it close enough for them to get a lead. What our bench does is come in with a decent lead (talking 10-12 points or so) and leaves with a small lead (one or two points) or completely loses the lead all together. I wonder how exhausting that is for the starters; doing things right on your end only to have another unit piss it all away. Yet, I'm supposed to say it's the starters fault for losing close games? There wouldn't be as many close games if the bench play was even average!