Minnesota Sports Forum

I just read an article on the Athletic about the Raptors and the Fred VanVleet situation. Of course he mentions resigning him or the Rockets giving him a big contract if Harden falls through (does he want to go to a building team chock full of youth?). However, he also mentions the Wolves as a sign and trade destination. Long shot for sure, but I find it interesting because it's not something that even occurred to me.

I think Carter would be a perfect fit for this roster and a pretty realistic get. DiVencenzo would also be great, but his injury history worries me a bit.

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 8:16 pm TC said he doesn’t see any positional needs but instead is looking for certain characteristics. As I recall, he mentioned high IQ and toughness as the characteristics he’s looking for. I think toughness should be #1 on the list. Interestingly, Price was both smart and tough. So I’m not sure I see a significant net gain replacing him with any of the free agents we have a reasonable chance of signing. In any event, if we’re looking for toughness as I think we should, they Bruce Brown, Torrey Craig or Jae Crowder would be my picks.

Caris LaVert? He’s never struck me as particularly tough. Moreover, he’s a career 34.4% three-point shooter who has averaged only 3.8 rebounds in nearly 30 minutes per game. In addition to toughness, this team needs 3-point shooting and rebounding. LeVert doesn’t provide either of those two. So I hope the LeVert think is just smoke from Canada.

Prince isn’t exactly a good rebounder either. Levert is more of a guard (assists per game) and their career rebounding per 36 Prince beats him by less than a rebound and Prince played at least much a season where he was primarily a PF. I’d say they are guys almost the same age that bring similarly valuable games but with different skill sets who struggle staying healthy.

I don’t think of Prince as being tough. I think he is solid. As for the smart part…I can think of 3 games in the 2nd half of the season he made stupid plays late in the game. This is coming from someone who likes Prince and values him fairly highly. I’m not dying to get Levert (partly because of his injury history) although I’ve always liked him.

If we are looking at rebounding a 3 point shooting I’m not sure I would put a near 33 year only Jae Crowder in either of those categories. Which 3 point shooter are you getting? He has struggled at times and he isn’t a good rebounder for a stretch forward who at times played a lot of minutes as a PF. I wouldn’t be looking to pay him a whole lot of money. Also while I would agree on the toughness part of adding him…the guy seems to be a little off and that worries me a little.

The Wolves are probably gonna explore a number of guys. They might be like if we can get player/s for X price (some lower than the mid level) we will do that. They let Prince go and they likely don’t know for absolute certainty who they can sign so they are probably checking out all their options as the should. They got Kyle Anderson for a little cheaper last year than I expected and that was a heck of a signing. Let’s see what they do this year. Maybe they are able to get someone unexpected to a good deal.

Monster wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 9:21 pm

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 8:16 pm TC said he doesn’t see any positional needs but instead is looking for certain characteristics. As I recall, he mentioned high IQ and toughness as the characteristics he’s looking for. I think toughness should be #1 on the list. Interestingly, Price was both smart and tough. So I’m not sure I see a significant net gain replacing him with any of the free agents we have a reasonable chance of signing. In any event, if we’re looking for toughness as I think we should, they Bruce Brown, Torrey Craig or Jae Crowder would be my picks.

Caris LaVert? He’s never struck me as particularly tough. Moreover, he’s a career 34.4% three-point shooter who has averaged only 3.8 rebounds in nearly 30 minutes per game. In addition to toughness, this team needs 3-point shooting and rebounding. LeVert doesn’t provide either of those two. So I hope the LeVert think is just smoke from Canada.

Prince isn’t exactly a good rebounder either. Levert is more of a guard (assists per game) and their career rebounding per 36 Prince beats him by less than a rebound and Prince played at least much a season where he was primarily a PF. I’d say they are guys almost the same age that bring similarly valuable games but with different skill sets who struggle staying healthy.

I don’t think of Prince as being tough. I think he is solid. As for the smart part…I can think of 3 games in the 2nd half of the season he made stupid plays late in the game. This is coming from someone who likes Prince and values him fairly highly. I’m not dying to get Levert (partly because of his injury history) although I’ve always liked him.

If we are looking at rebounding a 3 point shooting I’m not sure I would put a near 33 year only Jae Crowder in either of those categories. Which 3 point shooter are you getting? He has struggled at times and he isn’t a good rebounder for a stretch forward who at times played a lot of minutes as a PF. I wouldn’t be looking to pay him a whole lot of money. Also while I would agree on the toughness part of adding him…the guy seems to be a little off and that worries me a little.

The Wolves are probably gonna explore a number of guys. They might be like if we can get player/s for X price (some lower than the mid level) we will do that. They let Prince go and they likely don’t know for absolute certainty who they can sign so they are probably checking out all their options as the should. They got Kyle Anderson for a little cheaper last year than I expected and that was a heck of a signing. Let’s see what they do this year. Maybe they are able to get someone unexpected to a good deal.

I agree Monster. I liked Prince and I really hope we find a way to make up for the shooting we'll miss from him, but I don't think of him as being that tough. Yes, he took charges and was a strong lockerroom presence, but his defense was just OK-ish overall and he didn't help us much on the glass or being physical enough with other teams.

PJ Tucker, Patrick Beverley, Bruce Brown, Alex Caruso, Marcus Smart....now those guys are tough.

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 9:38 pm

Monster wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 9:21 pm

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 28, 2023 8:16 pm TC said he doesn’t see any positional needs but instead is looking for certain characteristics. As I recall, he mentioned high IQ and toughness as the characteristics he’s looking for. I think toughness should be #1 on the list. Interestingly, Price was both smart and tough. So I’m not sure I see a significant net gain replacing him with any of the free agents we have a reasonable chance of signing. In any event, if we’re looking for toughness as I think we should, they Bruce Brown, Torrey Craig or Jae Crowder would be my picks.

Caris LaVert? He’s never struck me as particularly tough. Moreover, he’s a career 34.4% three-point shooter who has averaged only 3.8 rebounds in nearly 30 minutes per game. In addition to toughness, this team needs 3-point shooting and rebounding. LeVert doesn’t provide either of those two. So I hope the LeVert think is just smoke from Canada.

Prince isn’t exactly a good rebounder either. Levert is more of a guard (assists per game) and their career rebounding per 36 Prince beats him by less than a rebound and Prince played at least much a season where he was primarily a PF. I’d say they are guys almost the same age that bring similarly valuable games but with different skill sets who struggle staying healthy.

I don’t think of Prince as being tough. I think he is solid. As for the smart part…I can think of 3 games in the 2nd half of the season he made stupid plays late in the game. This is coming from someone who likes Prince and values him fairly highly. I’m not dying to get Levert (partly because of his injury history) although I’ve always liked him.

If we are looking at rebounding a 3 point shooting I’m not sure I would put a near 33 year only Jae Crowder in either of those categories. Which 3 point shooter are you getting? He has struggled at times and he isn’t a good rebounder for a stretch forward who at times played a lot of minutes as a PF. I wouldn’t be looking to pay him a whole lot of money. Also while I would agree on the toughness part of adding him…the guy seems to be a little off and that worries me a little.

The Wolves are probably gonna explore a number of guys. They might be like if we can get player/s for X price (some lower than the mid level) we will do that. They let Prince go and they likely don’t know for absolute certainty who they can sign so they are probably checking out all their options as the should. They got Kyle Anderson for a little cheaper last year than I expected and that was a heck of a signing. Let’s see what they do this year. Maybe they are able to get someone unexpected to a good deal.

I agree Monster. I liked Prince and I really hope we find a way to make up for the shooting we'll miss from him, but I don't think of him as being that tough. Yes, he took charges and was a strong lockerroom presence, but his defense was just OK-ish overall and he didn't help us much on the glass or being physical enough with other teams.

PJ Tucker, Patrick Beverley, Bruce Brown, Alex Caruso, Marcus Smart....now those guys are tough.

That’s fair. I’ve never thought of Prince as a true tough guy, but he was probably our toughest player player year. The guys you mentioned are absolutely the ones I consider truly tough. That’s why the more I reflect, the more I’d like the Wolves to end up with Bruce Brown. Otherwise, I still like the idea of signing Pat Beverley. He wouldn’t cost much.

I think the Wolves will end up with Bruce Brown or Donte DiVencenzo. Of all the players identified recently as potential Wolves free agent targets, those are the two best. Signing one of those two makes even more sense when you consider the team’s biggest specific needs. I see four needs in order of importance:

1. Toughness. This team needs a lot more grit and Vando-like energy

2. 3-point shooting. We’re clearly lacking in this area off the bench

3. Rebounding. As I’ve noted, Rudy and Towns are not very additive when it comes to rebounds because they both get the same types of rebounds. That means the Wolves need to get rebounds from other players and other positions, especially off the bench.

4. PG skills. While I’ve minimized the need for a backup PG, I recognize this team would be better off if it had another PG who can handle the ball and run the offense.

Bruce Brown is the only free agent mentioned as a Wolves target who checks all four boxes. I’m not totally sold on his three-point shooting, which was 36% last year and only 34% over his career. But he’s good enough and excellent in the other categories I listed.

DiVincenzo checks all these boxes except perhaps toughness. I don’t mean to suggest he’s not tough. I think he’s tough in way Prince is tough, but he’s not Bruce Brown or Caruso tough. Still, DiVincenzo has all the other characteristics. He’s a true PG and excellent 3-point shooter who averaged 39.7% from behind the arc last season on 5.3 attempts and 36.2% on 4.7 attempts over his career. And to my surprise, his stats show he’s a really good rebounder at his position, averaging 4.5 rebounds both last season and over the course of his career in around 25 minutes per game. My initial reaction to getting Donte was negative, but after looking closely at his stats relative to the alternatives, I see him as the next best thing to Bruce Brown. Maybe we could sign Donte and still have enough left over to sign Pat Bev.

I don’t think TC will settle for a marginal role player as his main free agent acquisition this summer. He waived Prince for a reason — to free up enough money to land a more coveted free agent. Unfortunately, the Wolves won’t be able to afford Josh Hart. But signing Bruce Brown or DiVincenzo for the MLE (or portion thereof) seems doable to me. The Wolves are now about $14.5M under the luxury tax threshold assuming they sign Miller at $1.8M and Clark at $1.2M. We should be able to sign Brown or Donte for around $9M and sign either NAW or another free agent like Pat Bev without going over the luxury tax threshold.

FWIW aim his article in the Athletic Jon K do dents think it’s like the Wolves land Bruce Brown because so many teams will be interested. I wonder if the Wolves want to bring back NAW if they won’t be willing to offer the full mid level to anyone…although maybe they would for Bruce Brown but if not yeah they may not get him. Lip says he checks all those boxes…that’s why he is gonna be in high demand. My guess is he will be getting waaaay more calls than another former Net D’Angelo Russell…

D’Vincenzo would be a nice addition. As Lip mentioned he checks a lot of boxes. My concern with him is staying healthy. He can do a lot of good stuff and can help at a couple of positions. Jon K said the Wolves were actually very interested in him last season before GS signed him. I wonder how much higher his value has gone with a good season for GS.

Monster wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:01 am FWIW aim his article in the Athletic Jon K do dents think it’s like the Wolves land Bruce Brown because so many teams will be interested. I wonder if the Wolves want to bring back NAW if they won’t be willing to offer the full mid level to anyone…although maybe they would for Bruce Brown but if not yeah they may not get him. Lip says he checks all those boxes…that’s why he is gonna be in high demand. My guess is he will be getting waaaay more calls than another former Net D’Angelo Russell…

D’Vincenzo would be a nice addition. As Lip mentioned he checks a lot of boxes. My concern with him is staying healthy. He can do a lot of good stuff and can help at a couple of positions. Jon K said the Wolves were actually very interested in him last season before GS signed him. I wonder how much higher his value has gone with a good season for GS.

Monster - I think you’re absolutely right that there’s a lot of interest in Brown around the League. But I don’t think he’ll command more than the full MLE. I think the Wolves have a good chance getting him if they’re willing to give him the entire MLE. I’m not sure that would be prudent. You’re right to be concerned about DiVincenzo staying healthy.

I didn’t think the Wolves would move on from Prince however the more I think about it I think I get the thinking behind it and also can fully support it as I think it offers various avenues to improve the team. I think it’s also interesting that Prince wasn’t traded. That means he might not have been valued high enough to trade for with FA looming. I also thought the Wolves would have a little more financial flexibility than they do now and that’s partly for a while I thought they might be able to get NAW and Naz done for less but I think Naz deal especially with the cap going up is just fine. Anyway back to what options we have going forward.

To me there are 3 basic paths the Wolves can take after letting Prince go.

1. Add an even better player that likely will cost more money in a contract but it’s something they couldn’t have done before. So for the same roster spot they upgrade Prince. That would be hard to argue with. Bruce Brown would be this guy but there is probably other options.

2. Adding a player for about the same money that has some sort of advantage over Prince which could be health or youth or something else. D’Vincenzo is probably an example of this type of guy.

3. Sign a player for less money than Prince and still have roughly the same level of impact as a fringe starter/key rotation player. Jevon Carter might fit here although it’s possible he costs #2 money but regardless I think I could say he could be equally as valuable as Prince. A guy that might be interesting in that vein is Dennis Smith Jr. He has some pretty good defensive numbers. Not sure what he will command in FA but I would guess it won’t be a lot probably less than Carter. Signing this type of player for less would increase their flexibility under the cap and maybe they can even sign another player for more than the vet min in addition to NAW or at least be able to have 15 roster spots full in addition to the 2-way deals.

Of course there is a chance that they can bring back Prince. Overall the gamble of letting Prince go is that they can’t sign anyone that’s as good as Prince for around 7 million. As much as I value Prince that’s probably a reasonable gamble especially considering his injury history.

Monster wrote: ↑Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:03 pm I didn’t think the Wolves would move on from Prince however the more I think about it I think I get the thinking behind it and also can fully support it as I think it offers various avenues to improve the team. I think it’s also interesting that Prince wasn’t traded. That means he might not have been valued high enough to trade for with FA looming. I also thought the Wolves would have a little more financial flexibility than they do now and that’s partly for a while I thought they might be able to get NAW and Naz done for less but I think Naz deal especially with the cap going up is just fine. Anyway back to what options we have going forward.

To me there are 3 basic paths the Wolves can take after letting Prince go.

1. Add an even better player that likely will cost more money in a contract but it’s something they couldn’t have done before. So for the same roster spot they upgrade Prince. That would be hard to argue with. Bruce Brown would be this guy but there is probably other options.

2. Adding a player for about the same money that has some sort of advantage over Prince which could be health or youth or something else. D’Vincenzo is probably an example of this type of guy.

3. Sign a player for less money than Prince and still have roughly the same level of impact as a fringe starter/key rotation player. Jevon Carter might fit here although it’s possible he costs #2 money but regardless I think I could say he could be equally as valuable as Prince. A guy that might be interesting in that vein is Dennis Smith Jr. He has some pretty good defensive numbers. Not sure what he will command in FA but I would guess it won’t be a lot probably less than Carter. Signing this type of player for less would increase their flexibility under the cap and maybe they can even sign another player for more than the vet min in addition to NAW or at least be able to have 15 roster spots full in addition to the 2-way deals.

Of course there is a chance that they can bring back Prince. Overall the gamble of letting Prince go is that they can’t sign anyone that’s as good as Prince for around 7 million. As much as I value Prince that’s probably a reasonable gamble especially considering his injury history.

Excellent breakdown, Monster. That’s exactly how I see it. I was about to write up a post with those three scenario categories you listed. Great minds think alike! . I like using Taurean Prince’s $7.5M as the benchmark starting salary for players in category 2. And agree DiVincenzo probably fits that category. I suspect the salary for a category 1 free agent in your breakdown would be $9-12M. I do think Jevon Carter definitely falls into category three. I don’t see him getting Taurean Prince money. He’s more of a $4-6M free agent in my mind. I’m beginning to think we’ll end up with Carter. I’ll be pleasantly surprised if we end up with Donte and elated if we end up with Bruce Brown. And who knows. Maybe TC will somehow end up with Josh Hart at the full MLE.

The Josh dream just died… Hart opted to return to the Knicks