Minnesota Sports Forum

I guess I'm guilty of not seriously watching last night's game...my apologies to the board for my Nathan Knight-like lapse. I'm guilty of liking it when we outscore our opponent, and when a player puts up a +/- turd, I try to understand why it happened. With Jaden, his inability to defend SGA without fouling (not an easy task) was the main reason. With Russell it was something else. I learned long ago that there are 3 main elements to successful point guard play- efficient scoring, distributing without turning the ball over, and defense. If a PG does three of these things well (like I believe DLo did against Memphis), he generally has a good +/- night. If the PG only does two of them well, he still might have a decent night. But last night Russell was only good in the first element...he scored well and really took advantage of the Thunder's lack of interior defense (as did Ant). But his A:TO ratio was not very good, and his perimeter defense (as well as Ant's) had me pulling my hair out at times (and you could sense Finchie's frustration at times too with his flailing arms).

We're going to struggle without KAT anyway, but we're really going to struggle if DLo and Ant play "defense" like they did last night and ignore the pick and roll game on offense and default to 1 on 1. Yes, Ant and Russell scored well last night and were fun to watch. But anyone who gives Russell any more than a D- on defense wasn't seriously watching the game. There are two sides to the ball, and we're going to lose to teams like OkC with KAT out if Ant and Russell don't appreciate that (like they did against Memphis).

Camden wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:

Camden wrote:Thought Rudy Gobert should have been called for a Flagrant 1 when he tripped Kenrich Williams, but if we're being honest Gobert needs to control himself better in that moment. The game got much more difficult for Minnesota once he was tossed. He's probably still the Wolves best player and removing him from the game was very impactful.

I thought our guys showed great fight and resiliency, but moral victories aren't enough. They'll have to steal one against a top team to make up for this loss.

Hate to say it, but the season is starting to slip away at this point. We have just dropped way too many games that we should have won on paper. We need like 6 or 7 improbable wins at this point. Not going to happen.

I'm not ready to go that far, personally. I know we don't like to use last season as a comparison or barometer, and urgency is absolutely needed, but the Wolves were a game below .500 (24-25) as late as January 28th before going 22-11 over their next 33 games and winding up 46-36 on the year -- 3.0 GB of the fifth-seed. There's just too much basketball left to play for me to feel uneasy given the talent on the roster. Another month from now should be more telling, I think, but I've seen some good things from this team lately. Need that to reflect in the wins column, of course.

Well, I'm not suggesting we tank or anything, as that has absolutely no value to us and just reinforces the losing culture that already permeates the franchise and we've had a hard time shaking no matter who is in charge.

What I am suggesting is that any sort of hope for a top 6 seed is slipping away. We just aren't a top 6 team in the West as currently composed and the sooner the front office comes to grips with this, the better.

I think what is most discomfiting to me is that I'm not sure what the answer is. It's not as simple as firing Finch or trading DLO, but those may be the first two places to start. I realize it's not exclusively their fault, but the front office can't just sit on their hands as we stumble through a season where on more nights than not we get out-executed.

Q-was-here wrote:

Camden wrote:Thought Rudy Gobert should have been called for a Flagrant 1 when he tripped Kenrich Williams, but if we're being honest Gobert needs to control himself better in that moment. The game got much more difficult for Minnesota once he was tossed. He's probably still the Wolves best player and removing him from the game was very impactful.

I thought our guys showed great fight and resiliency, but moral victories aren't enough. They'll have to steal one against a top team to make up for this loss.

Hate to say it, but the season is starting to slip away at this point. We have just dropped way too many games that we should have won on paper. We need like 6 or 7 improbable wins at this point. Not going to happen.

I agree, Q. I see more effort and fight in this team lately, but they've dug themselves a pretty big hole by losing games they should have won. Meanwhile KAT's out for the next month. In addition, there remain troubling signs.

lipoli390 wrote:

Camden wrote:Oh, boy... That game was yet another example of how traditional plus-minus, especially of the single-game variety, can often be a misleading statistic. I'll forever argue that plus-minus is best-used as a lineup/unit metric instead of an individual catch-all. There's just too much context withheld from it to be consistently meaningful.

I believe anyone who seriously watched last night's game knows Anthony Edwards and D'Angelo Russell were the only reasons Minnesota hung around last night, especially after Rudy Gobert got ejected, so I won't spend much time elaborating there. Naz Reid stepped in admirably and posted a career-high in rebounds (18) so kudos there as well. It's a game Minnesota should have won. They let it slip away with some untimely turnovers and missed shots late, along with Oklahoma City hitting some real toughies down the stretch. Shai Gilgeous-Alexander has played at an elite level this year and might be top-five in the NBA right now.

It's a bad loss, but I saw encouraging fight in our guys. They'll get an extended break here with their next game coming Wednesday at home against Indiana. That's several days to reset and come back stronger. Favorable stretch on the schedule ahead.

Cam - I agree with you that the plus-minus stat is not a good measure of an individual player's performance in a particular game and it is often misleading. I also agree that Edwards and Russell were clearly the Wolves best players last night and the reason the Wolves were in the game.

Lip, if you recorded the game last night, I invite you to go back and watch Ant and Russell closely on defense. If that is an example of being our best players (by the way, I would say Naz was clearly our best player last night at both ends of the court...13-18-3 with 4 blocks, and hustling his ass off to defend the perimeter. That's 9 blocks in two games!), we're not going to win many games over the next month. I need way more smarts and effort on defense from these two guys.

lipoli390 wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:

Camden wrote:Thought Rudy Gobert should have been called for a Flagrant 1 when he tripped Kenrich Williams, but if we're being honest Gobert needs to control himself better in that moment. The game got much more difficult for Minnesota once he was tossed. He's probably still the Wolves best player and removing him from the game was very impactful.

I thought our guys showed great fight and resiliency, but moral victories aren't enough. They'll have to steal one against a top team to make up for this loss.

Hate to say it, but the season is starting to slip away at this point. We have just dropped way too many games that we should have won on paper. We need like 6 or 7 improbable wins at this point. Not going to happen.

I agree, Q. I see more effort and fight in this team lately, but they've dug themselves a pretty big hole by losing games they should have won. Meanwhile KAT's out for the next month. In addition, there remain troubling signs.

I don't necessarily disagree with you guys, but when we beat a good Memphis team with 3 of our top reserves out, my optimism creeped up a bit. I loved the new style of offense and the hustling defense that night. If we keep playing like that and KAT comes back healthy in a month, we're a playoff team for sure and maybe even a top 4. Austin Rivers is a savvy veteran and I don't take his words lightly...he likes this team and says good things are going to happen. Let's hope he's right.

FNG wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:

Camden wrote:Thought Rudy Gobert should have been called for a Flagrant 1 when he tripped Kenrich Williams, but if we're being honest Gobert needs to control himself better in that moment. The game got much more difficult for Minnesota once he was tossed. He's probably still the Wolves best player and removing him from the game was very impactful.

I thought our guys showed great fight and resiliency, but moral victories aren't enough. They'll have to steal one against a top team to make up for this loss.

Hate to say it, but the season is starting to slip away at this point. We have just dropped way too many games that we should have won on paper. We need like 6 or 7 improbable wins at this point. Not going to happen.

I agree, Q. I see more effort and fight in this team lately, but they've dug themselves a pretty big hole by losing games they should have won. Meanwhile KAT's out for the next month. In addition, there remain troubling signs.

I don't necessarily disagree with you guys, but when we beat a good Memphis team with 3 of our top reserves out, my optimism creeped up a bit. I loved the new style of offense and the hustling defense that night. If we keep playing like that and KAT comes back healthy in a month, we're a playoff team for sure and maybe even a top 4. Austin Rivers is a savvy veteran and I don't take his words lightly...he likes this team and says good things are going to happen. Let's hope he's right.

The problem FNG is that it's not sustainable. We don't have the personnel or durablitlit

FNG wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:

Camden wrote:Thought Rudy Gobert should have been called for a Flagrant 1 when he tripped Kenrich Williams, but if we're being honest Gobert needs to control himself better in that moment. The game got much more difficult for Minnesota once he was tossed. He's probably still the Wolves best player and removing him from the game was very impactful.

I thought our guys showed great fight and resiliency, but moral victories aren't enough. They'll have to steal one against a top team to make up for this loss.

Hate to say it, but the season is starting to slip away at this point. We have just dropped way too many games that we should have won on paper. We need like 6 or 7 improbable wins at this point. Not going to happen.

I agree, Q. I see more effort and fight in this team lately, but they've dug themselves a pretty big hole by losing games they should have won. Meanwhile KAT's out for the next month. In addition, there remain troubling signs.

I don't necessarily disagree with you guys, but when we beat a good Memphis team with 3 of our top reserves out, my optimism creeped up a bit. I loved the new style of offense and the hustling defense that night. If we keep playing like that and KAT comes back healthy in a month, we're a playoff team for sure and maybe even a top 4. Austin Rivers is a savvy veteran and I don't take his words lightly...he likes this team and says good things are going to happen. Let's hope he's right.

The effort isn't sustainable FNG. Do you really think DLO is going to keep diving on the floor for loose balls? And we are going to depend a lot on Ant offensively while KAT is out, so you can expect his defense to take long slumbers.

We're a solid team, don't get me wrong. We're going to win ~ 50% of our games and compete hard and lose some close ones as well. But I'm not seeing a team that is good enough to be top 6 in the West. I gave it a chance for 20+ games but I'm calling it how I see it at this point. Sorry to be a downer!

Q-was-here wrote:

FNG wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:

Camden wrote:Thought Rudy Gobert should have been called for a Flagrant 1 when he tripped Kenrich Williams, but if we're being honest Gobert needs to control himself better in that moment. The game got much more difficult for Minnesota once he was tossed. He's probably still the Wolves best player and removing him from the game was very impactful.

I thought our guys showed great fight and resiliency, but moral victories aren't enough. They'll have to steal one against a top team to make up for this loss.

Hate to say it, but the season is starting to slip away at this point. We have just dropped way too many games that we should have won on paper. We need like 6 or 7 improbable wins at this point. Not going to happen.

I agree, Q. I see more effort and fight in this team lately, but they've dug themselves a pretty big hole by losing games they should have won. Meanwhile KAT's out for the next month. In addition, there remain troubling signs.

I don't necessarily disagree with you guys, but when we beat a good Memphis team with 3 of our top reserves out, my optimism creeped up a bit. I loved the new style of offense and the hustling defense that night. If we keep playing like that and KAT comes back healthy in a month, we're a playoff team for sure and maybe even a top 4. Austin Rivers is a savvy veteran and I don't take his words lightly...he likes this team and says good things are going to happen. Let's hope he's right.

The problem FNG is that it's not sustainable. We don't have the personnel or durablitlit

FNG wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q-was-here wrote:

Camden wrote:Thought Rudy Gobert should have been called for a Flagrant 1 when he tripped Kenrich Williams, but if we're being honest Gobert needs to control himself better in that moment. The game got much more difficult for Minnesota once he was tossed. He's probably still the Wolves best player and removing him from the game was very impactful.

I thought our guys showed great fight and resiliency, but moral victories aren't enough. They'll have to steal one against a top team to make up for this loss.

Hate to say it, but the season is starting to slip away at this point. We have just dropped way too many games that we should have won on paper. We need like 6 or 7 improbable wins at this point. Not going to happen.

I agree, Q. I see more effort and fight in this team lately, but they've dug themselves a pretty big hole by losing games they should have won. Meanwhile KAT's out for the next month. In addition, there remain troubling signs.

I don't necessarily disagree with you guys, but when we beat a good Memphis team with 3 of our top reserves out, my optimism creeped up a bit. I loved the new style of offense and the hustling defense that night. If we keep playing like that and KAT comes back healthy in a month, we're a playoff team for sure and maybe even a top 4. Austin Rivers is a savvy veteran and I don't take his words lightly...he likes this team and says good things are going to happen. Let's hope he's right.

The effort isn't sustainable FNG. Do you really think DLO is going to keep diving on the floor for loose balls? And we are going to depend a lot on Ant offensively while KAT is out, so you can expect his defense to take long slumbers.

We're a solid team, don't get me wrong. We're going to win ~ 50% of our games and compete hard and lose some close ones as well. But I'm not seeing a team that is good enough to be top 6 in the West. I gave it a chance for 20+ games but I'm calling it how I see it at this point. Sorry to be a downer!

No, I mostly see it your way. I just got inspired by a good win against the Griz, and make allowances for last night's loss with our two 7 footers missing. The discouraging thing is that the effective offensive style we employed against a good Memphis team was absent last night. Kudos to Russell and Ant for some fine one-on-one scoring, but most of us here know that style of offense is not sustainable. I'm still intrigued enough by this team to see what they can do against the Pacers.

Just finished watching the game.

OKC played well and made a bunch of 3's. They deserve credit for getting the win although like Jim Peterson said the Wolves blinked in the 4th quarter.

Not thrilled with the officiating in this game but the Wolves need to be better and not get technicals and Gobert needs not to be troping people. That was a weak ejection but I'm also not gonna complain much about it.

McLaughlin came back and generally played well.

Russell overall did have a good game.

It was interesting that Knight played zero minutes in this game after Gobert was ejected. It did make some sense to play small but that was interesting.

I praised Russell and McLaughlin but both guys had some terrible turnovers that was the thing that bugged me the most in this game. The Wolves in general were too careless with the ball obviously but those 2 guys I expect more from.

Moore had another functional game where he looked like an NBA player.

McDaniels did some good things but didn't look like himself. It makes sense.

Naz played a heck of a game although this was generally a good matchup for him. From what I am seeing from him isn't he last couple games if he keeps up how he has been playing he is raising his value around the league and is making himself some more money.

Nowell looks like he is in a groove.

Overall it sucks that the Wolves lost but some good things happens with players returning and some guys playing well. The Wolves did also play hard much of the game and Edwards was certainly playing with a ton of energy which is great to see.

Also SGA looks like a stud.

D'Angelo Russell had 13.0 potential assists last night, according to NBA.com, which was tied for fourth-best around the league last night out of the 14 teams that played. It sure seemed to me like he was moving the ball, creating shots for himself and his teammates, and playing with good energy overall forcing turnovers and making the right play in general. But hey, none of that matters if the plus-minus says otherwise -- despite it essentially being a lineup stat with moving parts that individual players can't always affect. But hey, we see things differently. There's no point in trying to go any deeper now.

Camden wrote:D'Angelo Russell had 13.0 potential assists last night, according to NBA.com, which was tied for fourth-best around the league last night out of the 14 teams that played. It sure seemed to me like he was moving the ball, creating shots for himself and his teammates, and playing with good energy overall forcing turnovers and making the right play in general. But hey, none of that matters if the plus-minus says otherwise -- despite it essentially being a lineup stat with moving parts that individual players can't always affect. But hey, we see things differently. There's no point in trying to go any deeper now.

The problem Cam is that the guy has been a negative in that stat over the course hundreds of games and thousands of minutes and this season has been no different. Last year was the one time in his career he had a positive net rating and net on/off rating. At some point, shouldn't the player get some blame if after 8 seasons his Net rating is negative AND his Net On/Off rating is negative? At that point, "context" doesn't matter because so many different contexts are applicable. If all the other variables are changing around you, but you still are a negative, then that seems to point to the one constant! But unfortunately it's a point you'll never concede when it comes to DLO.