Minnesota Sports Forum

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Yeah, the shooting is encouraging and he can guard multiple positions given his size. I'd still like Rubio around for insurance, but Bolmaro has the potential to be a very good backup PG.

I agree with you, Q. Unless we can get a really good deal for Rubio, I'm inclined to want to keep him for the last year of his contract as insurance, but also as a veteran presence and ongoing mentor for Edwards and Bolmaro. I know that $17M is a lot for a backup PG, vet presence and mentor, but it might make sense for one more year. Then perhaps we can re-sign Ricky on the cheap to keep around as a team vet presence and Bolmaro mentor.

Lip not to put you on the spot but what kind of deal would you give Rubio assuming after next season it still seems like a good idea to keep him around? I've been kicking this around in my head and honestly I don't have a number yet. I like the idea of keeping Rubio but...I also wonder if it might not make sense a few months from now. In addition if Rosas somehow was able to get some value for him this offseason in a trade (especially if it helps balance the roster) I say do it.

I haven't put a number on it either, Monster. It really depends on what kind of player he is at the end of next season and what the team's needs are at that time. It's just too early to assign a dollar value to his next contract. If I were Rosas I would definitely explore potential deals for Ricky this offseason. Nevertheless, I've been pleased with his play the final 2 months of the season and, if he stays in shape this summer, I see him being an effective player next season. I also like the veteran presence and mentoring he brings to this young Wolves club. So I've reached the point where I'd be OK keeping him next season in spite of his $17M salary. At the same time, if a good deal comes along for Rubio, Rosas should take it.

I haven't solidified in my mind yet what a realistic good deal for Ricky would be. Maybe the Pacers are itching to move on from Myles Turner given his injury propensity and current toe surgery. Maybe Ricky's expiring deal and Okogie would be enough. Of course, that's a deal Rosas should grab if offered, but it's only a fantasy. :)

The thing I hope Bolmaro can provide is another player that can put pressure on the defense with the dribble. Wolves throughout history have struggled having guys who can consistently put pressure on defenses with the attack. With the possible lineup of Dlo/Ant/Bolmaro you could have 3 wings that can put so much pressure on the defense with the dribble drive and the ability to pass something the Wolves have never had.

Obviously this is all in theory but Bolmaro fits that mold of player

Good point kek. What you guys are saying about Bolmaro and Rubio is getting at a broader issue--the importance of having multiple guys who can handle the ball and initiate the offense.

To some degree this is the classic wisdom of having a 3rd PG, which obviously helped us weather DLO's injury. But it was also revealing to be able to have Ant out there with a PG. His handles aren't great right now, but they're good enough that when he's out there with a PG, or even with both Rubio and DLO, it just makes the offense much more flexible because you have multiple threats to attack off the dribble.

So the real value you guys are getting at is being able to put multiple guys on the floor at the same time who can initiate off the dribble. Especially as defenses are getting more adept at getting the ball out of one guy's hands (look what Memphis just did to Curry), it's even more important to have guys that can make something happen with the ball. Adding Bolmaro would give us another option, though hopefully one who can shoot better than Rubio, since that weakness in Rubio's game makes it harder and harder to play him. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised in the near future to see that if you want to be a great team in this league, you almost have to have the ability to put 3 guys on the floor who can all initiate off the dribble AND hit 3s and have enough size between them that you aren't going to get killed defensively--you can't just trot out 3 classic PG-sized guys.

To me, this is what makes Cade Cunningham so appealing as a prospect, both in general, but also (fingers crossed), for us. It's just really rare for guys his size to be able to run an offense like that. So you can easily put him out there with a couple smaller guys who can handle the ball, and it's not a problem if one of them is (or maybe even both of them are) more of a scoring threat than a passing threat. In a sense, this is similar to how Jokic makes it possible to run Murray as a PG even though he's really a scorer in a classic PG's body. Plus, it looks like Cade can shoot from range, so he's not going to give you the offensive problems that Simmons gives the Sixers.

It might not be very cool to compare him to Kyle Anderson and Joe Ingles, because he definitely looks better than them as a prospect, especially as an offensive initiator, but those two guys REALLY help their teams. Watch the Memphis-Utah series (I'm assuming Mitchell will be playing starting in the next game), and you'll see two teams that can initiate offense from 1-3 (Conley, Mitchell, Ingles, and Ja, Brooks, SloMo), which gives both teams some real flexibility. And in both of those cases, it's their SF who should arguably be the third option to initiate the offense, which is understandable because it's rare to find guys that size with those skills outside of LeBron. Tatum and Brown are pretty skilled at their size, but not quite the initiators for others that you might like yet. And Cade looks like he'd be better at initiating the offense with passing than Tatum and Brown, Ingles and Anderson. He's going to give a team such flexibility, arguably being their 1st or 2nd best option to initiate the offense through dribbling and passing from the forward position. That's huge.

I hate to say it because I don't want to jinx it, but think of him with DLO and Ant out there. All three could initiate off the dribble: Ant most likely to look to score, especially at the rack, but he has shown development as a passer; DLO has run teams as a PG, but it's clear he'd just as soon take jump shots as make passes; and Cade looks even more like a traditional PG than either of those two, but he can also score. Cade would make life somewhat easier for those guys because he can get them shots and free them up to do a bit more of what they want (like how DLO played with Rubio this year), but Cade also looks likely to be able to stretch the floor when DLO or Ant have the ball. A DLO, Ant, Cade, Jaden, KAT lineup would be a blast to watch offensively.

Reading through these draft profiles and watching these highlights, it's looking more and more to me like Green is going to be a scoring star like Beal. I assume his floor is going to be a three-level 20 PPG scorer, honestly. It wouldn't surprise me if he gets into that 25-30 PPG range, maybe even relatively early in his career. Mobley's defense and length are super-attractive, especially given our defensive weaknesses. I like Suggs' all-around game. But even though Cade doesn't really "wow" you when you watch his highlights in the way that those other guys do, especially Green, I think his skillset at his sizeat his size would just be so valuable in letting a team do what you guys are getting at--putting as many guys on the floor at the same time who can initiate the offense off the dribble without hurting you in other ways. If we had Suggs, it would just be much harder to run him out there with DLO and Ant at the same time.

Bolmaro is obviously nowhere near the prospect Cade is, partly because his lack of size (he's tallish but skinny) would make it tough for him to guard many forwards. Ant's strength might be able to compensate a bit for that, although I imagine Bolmaro may not be playing with the starters too much. But yeah, assuming we don't get 9% lucky and land Cade, I can see a value in Bolmaro coming over--more initiators on the floor at the same time.

At some point, there is a diminishing margin of return with each incremental scorer we put out on the floor. A DLO-Ant-KAT-Cunningham foursome would certainly provide plenty of offensive options, but there is only one basketball to go around and someone just isn't going to get enough shots. Then there is defense.....

Q12543 wrote:At some point, there is a diminishing margin of return with each incremental scorer we put out on the floor. A DLO-Ant-KAT-Cunningham foursome would certainly provide plenty of offensive options, but there is only one basketball to go around and someone just isn't going to get enough shots. Then there is defense.....

I agree in principle, but I think that argument makes much more sense if we're talking about Jalen Green. Cade is a very unselfish player on the offensive end, and he's also a good defensive player. He wouldn't compound the problem you rightly imply that we have, which is too many shooters who don't defend well. He's a step toward a solution to that problem.

He's a two-way player with range and arguably a legit point forward--and outside LeBron, Luka, and maybe Kahwi or Simmons, I can't really think of any other forwards that run the point full time. That's the Swiss Army Knife of basketball players. I actually don't necessarily expect him to be a 20 PPG guy, at least not early in his career. Like I said, there's more Joe Ingles and Kyle Anderson in his game than you expect from a #1 prospect. But I can see him relatively quickly giving a team 16 points on good efficiency, along with 8 rebounds and 7 assists per game, while being a good defender and stretching the floor on the offensive end. That's awesome for a guy his size. And of course I'd project those numbers to rise through his career.

Not only would a guy like Cade take on some of the passing responsibilities that we kind of need because DLO's not really a passing-oriented player. The fact that there's a decent chance Cade could be a full-time point forward would also give us a lot of liberty to move on from DLO because we wouldn't necessarily be losing our PG nor would we necessarily have to replace him with somebody akin to a traditional PG. If the team's defense has improved and the too-much-offense problem isn't such a big concern, you could replace DLO with more of a scoring combo guard like DLO or even a classic SG as long as they can guard quick guards halfway decently--I'm thinking of a Jamal Murray, CJ McCollum, Donovan Mitchell, Caris LaVert type. It'd also be easier, for example, to just let DLO go and try to find a more defensive-oriented combo guard/shooting guard like Marcus Smart, Dillon Brooks, Jrue Holiday for the backcourt. You wouldn't want those guys running the point for you (except maybe Jrue, and the Bucks have the liberty of putting him out there with Middleton), so you'd typically have to run them out there with a smaller, more traditional PG who would likely be a liability on defense. But with a point-forward like Cade is likely to become, that's no problem. Now you have the liberty of moving on from DLO and putting a bigger, maybe more 3-D oriented guard out there alongside Ant in the backcourt. To me, the fact that Cade would be a path to moving on from DLO to an alternative backcourt partner to Ant along those lines is one of his biggest selling points.

I'm sure this is why so many people have him #1. He's not going to be the scorer Green is (and boy, Green looks like he could be a really special scorer). He doesn't have the Myles Turner/Serge Ibaka defense plus shooting that Mobley might have (and yes, Mobley'd also fit well with us). Cade's highlights do look somewhat pedestrian. But he's just so versatile, particularly at his size, that he'd basically fit any team and any need and give them so much flexibility for building a roster around him going forward.

He carried a 30% usage rate and averaged 20 PPG. Even if he reduces that somewhat to 16PPG, that simply doesn't work with KAT, Edwards, and DLO. Someone's skill-set isn't getting maximized in that lineup.

I'm not saying we don't take him if we get incredibly lucky, but then I'd be inclined to do what you mention and either move DLO or move Cunningham himself for a veteran big that can help us defensively.

I'm also leery about having to go through another on-boarding of a high lottery pick. We end up having to force-feed them minutes and its typically to the detriment of the team (Edwards contributed more to losing than almost any other player on the team through the first half of the season).

Don't we have enough ball handlers, play makers, and scorers? We need to be in "get kick-ass role players" mode, unless again, the plan is to move on from DLO.

Q12543 wrote:He carried a 30% usage rate and averaged 20 PPG. Even if he reduces that somewhat to 16PPG, that simply doesn't work with KAT, Edwards, and DLO. Someone's skill-set isn't getting maximized in that lineup.

I'm not saying we don't take him if we get incredibly lucky, but then I'd be inclined to do what you mention and either move DLO or move Cunningham himself for a veteran big that can help us defensively.

I'm also leery about having to go through another on-boarding of a high lottery pick. We end up having to force-feed them minutes and its typically to the detriment of the team (Edwards contributed more to losing than almost any other player on the team through the first half of the season).

Don't we have enough ball handlers, play makers, and scorers? We need to be in "get kick-ass role players" mode, unless again, the plan is to move on from DLO.

I agree, Q. As much as I love Cunningham and agree that he could turn out to be the best player in this draft, this team needs a facilitator or a rim protector much more than another high-usage scorer (and you're leaving 20 PPG Beasley out of your analysis of guys on our roster who need to score but don't defend well enough). That's why I continue to think Suggs or Mobley are better fits for this club than Cunningham. Here's my dream scenario. We somehow beat the odds and get the #1 pick, and trade down to 2 or 3 with a team that thinks Cade is the second coming. Picking up either Suggs or Mobley while also facilitating a trade that improves our roster by either picking up a serviceable player or unloading an unattractive contract would be the home run scenario in my opinion.

I'm all for getting a top 3 pick. The more assets Rosas has to work with, the better. What i'm leery about is trying to integrate yet another 20-year old into a major role on the team. Keep in mind we already have Edwards and McDaniels as key pillars (I assume) in our rotation next season. Both these guys are far from finished products. Then you have KAT, who has proven that while he is very gifted offensively, he is incapable of single-handedly taking over games and is still severely lacking in the mental maturity/toughness department. Then there is DLO, another highly paid, but highly flawed vet.

This teams needs to upgrade its role-playing vets. I love Jared Vanderbilt, but KAT needs a veteran big man next to him that can take up space in the paint and absorb some of the fouls that typically go to KAT because he's flailing about battling other bigs. That should be the absolute #1 priority of this team.

I think the second priority is upgrading the wing defensive specialist role that comes off the bench. Okogie was filling this role late in the season and his hustle and work ethic is admirable. But you simply can't have a guy that is a total non-factor from beyond the arc unless he is a game-changer defensively. Okogie is not a game changer defensively.

So we need a vet big and a vet wing defender that can actually make an open 3.

KAT/Reid
Vet Big/Vanderbilt
McDaniels/Vet 3&D wing
Edwards/Beasley or Nowell (depends on if Beasley gets traded)
DLO/Rubio or Bolmaro (depends on if Rubio gets traded)

Q12543 wrote:I'm all for getting a top 3 pick. The more assets Rosas has to work with, the better. What i'm leery about is trying to integrate yet another 20-year old into a major role on the team. Keep in mind we already have Edwards and McDaniels as key pillars (I assume) in our rotation next season. Both these guys are far from finished products. Then you have KAT, who has proven that while he is very gifted offensively, he is incapable of single-handedly taking over games and is still severely lacking in the mental maturity/toughness department. Then there is DLO, another highly paid, but highly flawed vet.

This teams needs to upgrade its role-playing vets. I love Jared Vanderbilt, but KAT needs a veteran big man next to him that can take up space in the paint and absorb some of the fouls that typically go to KAT because he's flailing about battling other bigs. That should be the absolute #1 priority of this team.

I think the second priority is upgrading the wing defensive specialist role that comes off the bench. Okogie was filling this role late in the season and his hustle and work ethic is admirable. But you simply can't have a guy that is a total non-factor from beyond the arc unless he is a game-changer defensively. Okogie is not a game changer defensively.

So we need a vet big and a vet wing defender that can actually make an open 3.

KAT/Reid
Vet Big/Vanderbilt
McDaniels/Vet 3&D wing
Edwards/Beasley or Nowell (depends on if Beasley gets traded)
DLO/Rubio or Bolmaro (depends on if Rubio gets traded)

I think this is exactly how I would assess this team. If we keep our pick there wont be a whole lot of minutes for them regardless of their position. Even if Mobley were a gifted defender, he doesnt automatically unseat anyone. If we somehow keep the pick in the lottery, it should be viewed as an asset, if we havent dealt it by the draft, take the best player and let them earn a spot in the pecking order. It shouldnt change the goal to upgrade the positions of need with vets as you cited. If that pick can get us an all star defensive big, I listen. I cant even think who that would be at this point though.

kekgeek1 wrote:Leandro Bolmaro has made 28/50 3PA since January 1st, an astonishing 56%.

Bolmaro started the year 4/19 from 3, but he has been near-automatic since then.

It'll be fascinating to track him NBA 3-point efficiency, because the trajectory he's on as a shooter is exciting. https://t.co/1WA4guYvGJ

Bolmaro has made similar improvement during this season in Barcelona than Ant did with Wolves.

In first 16 games of ACB his stats were 3.7 pts, 1 rbs, 1.4 asts, 0,6 stls in 12.3 minutes with 33.3 FG% and 20 3PT%
In last 17 games his numbers have been 8.9 pts, 1.9 rbs, 2.2 asts, 1.2 stls in 18.4 minutes with 56.8 FG% and 55.3 3PT%

In second half of this season his per 36 minutes numbers have been already pretty close same level or even better than anyone else from Barcelona's starters except Mirotic. Last years draft might turn the best draft that Minnesota has ever had.