OT - Making Sense of Tragedy

[thedoper]

I think the more major stark racial disparity in sentencing is white collar sentencing vs street crime. This is inherently an issue and judges and lawmakers have been trying to make excuses for it for a long time.

This is once again an apples to oranges comparison. The correct question IMO is if sentencing of white and non-white white-collar crimes is the same, and again white and non-white street crime. If we look at the reporting the past week in regards to the looting, vandalism, and arson you'll see a lot of people suggesting that because it's just property and is replaceable that means it's not as bad as a violent crime. If that logic applies to those situations should it not also apply to white-collar crime?

The question/problem isn't if these different crimes are inequitably written, they're not due to their being written without concern for the race of the criminal. The question is are they enforced/applied equally across race, religion, sexuality, or any other differences. In other words, is justice blind?

It might be apples and oranges but its all fruit, and our lawmakers and legal system has shown that orange criminals who play golf at their all white country clubs are not as deserving of the compost heap as apple criminals. The priority of law enforcement is one racial problem in our society along with how individual crimes are treated along racial lines.

Sentencing street crime is also grossly racially biased (see arrest rates, incarceration rates, conviction rates).

At all stages from what laws we chose to enforce harshly to how we apply those laws people of color are disproportionately on the wrong end of the stick. There is no way to explain it other than the dominant race is incapable of being blind when it applies justice. Otherwise the stats wouldnt be so negatively skewed toward representation of people of color as the recipients of the application of "justice".

Judges who are 60-70% white and male have decided to fill jails with 40% blacks and 60+% people of color. If racial bias doesnt factor into it at all stages of this "blind justice" from arrest to gavel I'd like to hear an alternate explanation.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

All of that also just excuses the fact that blacks are having twice the amount of police encounters as whites despite being a fraction of the population. Why must the outcome be a result of racism and not cultural dynamics? Accountability is getting lost here in pursuit of another narrative.

[thedoper]

All of that also just excuses the fact that blacks are having twice the amount of police encounters as whites despite being a fraction of the population. Why must the outcome be a result of racism and not cultural dynamics? Accountability is getting lost here in pursuit of another narrative.

I think accountability is a huge part of this discussion on both sides of the issue. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? Its a great question. The most likely answer is that they are the target of more policing.

It is impossible to have a real conversation about any of this that doesnt come back to everyone's role in society and recognizing inherent bias in all of us. I dont think that makes someone a bad person but it informs our perspectives on this. In all levels of society in the US, people of color have worse indicators of success then the dominant, white culture. This ranges in everything from health, outcomes, socio-economic status, education, propensity to be involved in the justice system. Where is the accountability of the dominant culture to address this disgusting disparity? To me that question is just as important as the accountability of individuals to make good decisions as they relate to the law.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

All of that also just excuses the fact that blacks are having twice the amount of police encounters as whites despite being a fraction of the population. Why must the outcome be a result of racism and not cultural dynamics? Accountability is getting lost here in pursuit of another narrative.

I think accountability is a huge part of this discussion on both sides of the issue. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? Its a great question. The most likely answer is that they are the target of more policing.

I truly believe we're not too far off of an agreement, but that bolded sentence is a dangerous assumption that so far isn't substantiated. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? They're committing more crimes. That's the logical answer here that is void of any bias.

The bigger and more problematic issues are rooted in the culture, in my opinion. Where that stems from is up for debate, but oppression and police brutality pale in comparison to single-parent homes, gang violence, drug involvement, and educational failure when it comes to discussing why our black communities aren't growing like all races in America wants them to. I feel confident in saying that if those matters were improved considerably, then we'd see that subset of a demographic thrive.

[Monster]

All of that also just excuses the fact that blacks are having twice the amount of police encounters as whites despite being a fraction of the population. Why must the outcome be a result of racism and not cultural dynamics? Accountability is getting lost here in pursuit of another narrative.

I think accountability is a huge part of this discussion on both sides of the issue. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? Its a great question. The most likely answer is that they are the target of more policing.

I truly believe we're not too far off of an agreement, but that bolded sentence is a dangerous assumption that so far isn't substantiated. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? They're committing more crimes. That's the logical answer here that is void of any bias.

The bigger and more problematic issues are rooted in the culture, in my opinion. Where that stems from is up for debate, but oppression and police brutality pale in comparison to single-parent homes, gang violence, drug involvement, and educational failure when it comes to discussing why our black communities aren't growing like all races in America wants them to. I feel confident in saying that if those matters were improved considerably, then we'd see that subset of a demographic thrive.

Cam would you be willing to elaborate on that last paragraph? I think it would help people including myself see even more the perspective you are coming from.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

All of that also just excuses the fact that blacks are having twice the amount of police encounters as whites despite being a fraction of the population. Why must the outcome be a result of racism and not cultural dynamics? Accountability is getting lost here in pursuit of another narrative.

I think accountability is a huge part of this discussion on both sides of the issue. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? Its a great question. The most likely answer is that they are the target of more policing.

I truly believe we're not too far off of an agreement, but that bolded sentence is a dangerous assumption that so far isn't substantiated. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? They're committing more crimes. That's the logical answer here that is void of any bias.

The bigger and more problematic issues are rooted in the culture, in my opinion. Where that stems from is up for debate, but oppression and police brutality pale in comparison to single-parent homes, gang violence, drug involvement, and educational failure when it comes to discussing why our black communities aren't growing like all races in America wants them to. I feel confident in saying that if those matters were improved considerably, then we'd see that subset of a demographic thrive.

These are all correct. But how much has systemic or structural racism (i.e. not necessarily malicious or intentional) created the conditions for these maladies to thrive? That is a legitimate question for those of us (including me) that point to single parent households as a leading cause of dysfunction. Unfortunately, it's become a virtuous cycle that has been really hard to break out of:


20th century white flight from inner cities>disappearing investment and jobs>welfare>single parent families>gangs>crime>arrests>incarceration>victimhood>low expectations>welfare>single parent families>gangs>crime>arrests, etc. etc.

By the way, a similar culture of despair and low expectations has been going on for decades in largely white Appalachia, although the historical antecedents are totally different. JD Vance wrote a terrific book about it. It's REALLY hard to break out of these virtuous cycles of low expectations and dysfunction.

Police and criminal justice reforms are important causes, but it doesn't solve solve all of the ills that exist. Not even close.

[thedoper]

All of that also just excuses the fact that blacks are having twice the amount of police encounters as whites despite being a fraction of the population. Why must the outcome be a result of racism and not cultural dynamics? Accountability is getting lost here in pursuit of another narrative.

I think accountability is a huge part of this discussion on both sides of the issue. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? Its a great question. The most likely answer is that they are the target of more policing.

I truly believe we're not too far off of an agreement, but that bolded sentence is a dangerous assumption that so far isn't substantiated. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? They're committing more crimes. That's the logical answer here that is void of any bias.

The bigger and more problematic issues are rooted in the culture, in my opinion. Where that stems from is up for debate, but oppression and police brutality pale in comparison to single-parent homes, gang violence, drug involvement, and educational failure when it comes to discussing why our black communities aren't growing like all races in America wants them to. I feel confident in saying that if those matters were improved considerably, then we'd see that subset of a demographic thrive.

https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/

You may not think Stanford is a great source of data but their study of 100million police stops shows implicit bias in regards to people of color. I think the assumption that blacks are more apt to be engaged in criminal activity is much more dangerous and is likely part of the issue why there is more engagement between people of color and police. I do think you present some compelling ways for the improvement of outcomes for people of color (better education, more opportunity for stable family units). I just believe that the dominant culture should be taking on a good deal of the responsibility in helping those communities address those issues, since the dominant culture played such a huge role in creating the dynamics we have now. I do agree with Q that police reform or one issue isnt going to magically solve everything. I think its about attitude. I hope that anyone who has had privilege and opportunity in their life should be grateful for that and be looking around to examine what they can do to create those opportunities for others, especially when a lack of opportunity could exist for a reason as silly as what someone looks like.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

All of that also just excuses the fact that blacks are having twice the amount of police encounters as whites despite being a fraction of the population. Why must the outcome be a result of racism and not cultural dynamics? Accountability is getting lost here in pursuit of another narrative.

I think accountability is a huge part of this discussion on both sides of the issue. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? Its a great question. The most likely answer is that they are the target of more policing.

I truly believe we're not too far off of an agreement, but that bolded sentence is a dangerous assumption that so far isn't substantiated. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? They're committing more crimes. That's the logical answer here that is void of any bias.

The bigger and more problematic issues are rooted in the culture, in my opinion. Where that stems from is up for debate, but oppression and police brutality pale in comparison to single-parent homes, gang violence, drug involvement, and educational failure when it comes to discussing why our black communities aren't growing like all races in America wants them to. I feel confident in saying that if those matters were improved considerably, then we'd see that subset of a demographic thrive.

https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/

You may not think Stanford is a great source of data but their study of 100million police stops shows implicit bias in regards to people of color. I think the assumption that blacks are more apt to be engaged in criminal activity is much more dangerous and is likely part of the issue why there is more engagement between people of color and police. I do think you present some compelling ways for the improvement of outcomes for people of color (better education, more opportunity for stable family units). I just believe that the dominant culture should be taking on a good deal of the responsibility in helping those communities address those issues, since the dominant culture played such a huge role in creating the dynamics we have now. I do agree with Q that police reform or one issue isnt going to magically solve everything. I think its about attitude. I hope that anyone who has had privilege and opportunity in their life should be grateful for that and be looking around to examine what they can do to create those opportunities for others, especially when a lack of opportunity could exist for a reason as silly as what someone looks like.

There has been decades of affirmative action, an EEOC, corporate diversity training, and tons of non-profits and scholarship money dedicated to people of color. Continuing to hit whites over the head with the cudgel of racism just isn't a very effective strategy in my opinion in light of how much effort, legislation, and money has been thrown at this problem.

By the way, one thing that has dominated inner cities is democratic governance. Now I'm not suggesting republicans would do any better, but are these folks looking in the mirror at all and asking what they could do better? They are the ones that negotiate the union contracts that protect cops from the type of accountability that could have prevented this tragedy. And let's not even start with public school unions....

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Ok, I think I have a different perspective than many of you. I am not going to pretend I am woke, but I've been doing a lot more listening lately - and I realize now that while I thought I have been a good listener, I had not been.

First: The media and the internet are broken all the way around and frankly I don't know what will solve it. Biased news from every degree on the spectrum is available now and extremes of our society are finding a voice.

There are a couple of pure information sources out there but I disagree with all of you in regards to the value of raw information. For example, in the IC they consider information that has been collected to be just that, raw information. An analyst takes that information and adds context to the information and create what they sometimes call an intelligence mosaic. Without context the meaning and value of raw information cannot be made, things like societal issues are immensely complex and can't be understood by fragmented information. This is where bias breaks the information we receive. This is where extremists have evolved and adapted to the new information age and it has changed the playing field outright. By creating their own mosaic of information, they can paint their cause as just all the while hiding or skirting their underlying goals.


Extremism: Technology, privacy laws and practices, along with new concepts in leadership and marketing to the fringes have all played a significant part in the growing problem we have in extremism. While the media and politicians have been pointing to Islamic fundamentalism and Antifa/far-left groups for terrorism, it's the far right that has been growing, starting in the previous administration. Within the IC they have seen the switch and the current perceived threat globally is the growth of far-right extremism.


Not seeing racism or the broken system.

Let's start with the system that has been rigged from the get-go and both parties have been doing it. Laws are passed specifically targeting minorities and criminalizing or creating grossly imbalanced laws. For instance, in one example of this let's examine our countries laws towards drugs:

Alcohol was outlawed, this impacted white people and was short-lived despite scientific evidence pointing to its negative impact in every way.

Pot, specifically outlawed to target the Hispanic and black populations, grossly impacting them disproportionally than white people...until it became cool with white people and it has rapidly been decriminalized.

Cocaine, this is where it gets a little crazy. The CIA used the contras coke to make crack and setup and protected the trafficking of crack into the black communities in California. Let me say that again, a government organization designed a classified operation to move a highly addictive drug into a specific minority community at price points targeting the poorest within the community and flooding the market.

They simultaneously passed laws with highly disproportionately sentencing between crack and cocaine, the white person version of the drug.

This along with new laws and the "war on drugs" resulted in increased policing, increased militarization of the police, and the portrayal of black people on the news culminated in a group of people who are targeted with biased laws and policing tactics. One in three black men in America will be incarcerated. 1 in 3, does that sound right to anyone? Or are you chalking it up to they are savages inherently, see that is what the white supremacists have said from day one - that is literally their message.

If you keep saying shit like "golly fucking gee whiz, they all be killing each other and breaking our laws" you just might not be a student of history. The next time you feel like those words forming on your lips, consider picking up virtually any history book and look at what happens in every culture when a group is singled out and targeted by another. Every period. every culture. every race. This should make you feel embarrassed that you see the problem but you blame them for it - This is that point where you become "woke" - you have the epiphany that white people who are afraid of black people have shaped their world in America to fit their racist needs, and it's subtle despite being in front of our faces the entire time.

I personally have made excuses, I have ignored those that say inappropriate shit, I have always thought the "do my part" was just not being a racist and then things would get better - I was wrong. It's not getting better, this is why shit is burning, because WE were not listening when Kaepernick took a knee - many of you are still not listening.

I will agree that America's ugly history of slavery, followed by Jim Crow, segregation and white flight were very much rooted in racism. That set off a virtuous cycle of dysfunction. So let's agree that our ugly history - of which none of us were alive to perpetrate - is very much at fault. Let's also agree that overt racism by some people still exists and might always exist - similar to the stain of anti semitism, which has truly never been completely snuffed out and also exists to this day.

So now what? Please offer specific solutions other than we're all inherently racist and need to change our attitude. I don't know what to do with that.

[thedoper]

All of that also just excuses the fact that blacks are having twice the amount of police encounters as whites despite being a fraction of the population. Why must the outcome be a result of racism and not cultural dynamics? Accountability is getting lost here in pursuit of another narrative.

I think accountability is a huge part of this discussion on both sides of the issue. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? Its a great question. The most likely answer is that they are the target of more policing.

I truly believe we're not too far off of an agreement, but that bolded sentence is a dangerous assumption that so far isn't substantiated. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? They're committing more crimes. That's the logical answer here that is void of any bias.

The bigger and more problematic issues are rooted in the culture, in my opinion. Where that stems from is up for debate, but oppression and police brutality pale in comparison to single-parent homes, gang violence, drug involvement, and educational failure when it comes to discussing why our black communities aren't growing like all races in America wants them to. I feel confident in saying that if those matters were improved considerably, then we'd see that subset of a demographic thrive.

https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/

You may not think Stanford is a great source of data but their study of 100million police stops shows implicit bias in regards to people of color. I think the assumption that blacks are more apt to be engaged in criminal activity is much more dangerous and is likely part of the issue why there is more engagement between people of color and police. I do think you present some compelling ways for the improvement of outcomes for people of color (better education, more opportunity for stable family units). I just believe that the dominant culture should be taking on a good deal of the responsibility in helping those communities address those issues, since the dominant culture played such a huge role in creating the dynamics we have now. I do agree with Q that police reform or one issue isnt going to magically solve everything. I think its about attitude. I hope that anyone who has had privilege and opportunity in their life should be grateful for that and be looking around to examine what they can do to create those opportunities for others, especially when a lack of opportunity could exist for a reason as silly as what someone looks like.

There has been decades of affirmative action, an EEOC, corporate diversity training, and tons of non-profits and scholarship money dedicated to people of color. Continuing to hit whites over the head with the cudgel of racism just isn't a very effective strategy in my opinion in light of how much effort, legislation, and money has been thrown at this problem.

By the way, one thing that has dominated inner cities is democratic governance. Now I'm not suggesting republicans would do any better, but are these folks looking in the mirror at all and asking what they could do better? They are the ones that negotiate the union contracts that protect cops from the type of accountability that could have prevented this tragedy. And let's not even start with public school unions....

I disagree. Blacks have been trending up in attaining university degrees and general socioeconomic status as a direct result from legislation and that type of social action. We are still a few generations removed from when it was legal for certain universities to not allow minority students to even attend l, as well as K-12 segregation. Comprehensive change on something that was so grossly negligent takes time. Without strong legislation including affirmative action it would be even worse if the population dynamics continued on the same trajectory. Im not a democrat either.
But calling an legislation correcting blatant negligence "a cudgel" is disingenuous to how great whites still have it in the US. There is literally no burden that whites have had to face in terms of their own economic growth, health outcomes, or access to education since this type of legislation has come around. If anything the diversity has been good for whites in all those areas.