Minnesota Sports Forum

PorkChop wrote:Remember when no one liked the Mcdaniels pick becuz the teenager was immature? How dare they grow up at their own pace!

I was probably number one on that flight.

I always prefer to be right, but thank God I am wrong here and there.

Q12543 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:The loss isn't KAT's fault obviously, as the bench played poorly this game, but he continues to prove that he isn't quite in that first tier of NBA talent yet. All-star caliber? Sure. All-NBA 1st or 2nd team? No way.

May be after he gets himself completely healthy and emotionally on track he will get there eventually. Right now he's a damn good player, but not top 10 or 12.

I think KAT's been ast that 2nd team all-NBA level before. He's obviously not at the top of his game at the moment, which is no surprise given what's happened to him - the death of his mother and other relatives, a torn wrist ligament and Covid infection. He's been back playing for only about a week since recovering from Covid.

Having said that, no doubt in my mind that Zach LaVine is playing at an all-NBA level right now. He could still be a T-Wolf.

I don't know. Something is still just a bit off to me with LaVine. There is no denying that he is a super gifted shooter and scorer. But he still turns it over too much and while he does get his fair share of assists, I don't necessarily see him getting guys a bunch of easy buckets playing off of him.

But yeah, at some point when you shoot and score THAT efficiently, it compensates for a lot of other flaws.

Shame on you, Q, for hanging that breaking ball out there for me! I'll take a swing at it. Yes, something is off with Zach, and I think you know what is is...the guy just doesn't play any defense and. last night at least, turns the ball over too much. I don't think anyone has mentioned his 7 turnovers last night.

The "it doesn't matter if you get outscored almost every game when you're on the court as long as you score a lot of points" crowd is going to scoff at this, but Zach is having one of the most bizarre seasons in the history of the NBA. There are very few players I enjoy watching play offensive basketball than Zach LaVine...he is an extraordinary scorer inside and out. And I always cheer for him because he seems like a terrific guy...Billy Donavan says he is even a better person than he is player, and I believe this.

But it's almost impossible to ignore his negative impact on the court. Despite his outstanding scoring that has deservedly won him a spot in the all-star game, the Bulls are 8.5 points worse this season when Zach is on the court than when he is off...EIGHT POINT FIVE! (and 1100 minutes is no small sample size, especially when these stats seem to be repeated by Zach every season). Cleaning the Glass reports that Zach's on/off performance adds up to 22 fewer wins...22! And the answer jumps off the page ...defense. Bulls' opponents score an unbelievable 15.6 more points per 100 possessions when Zach is waving his matador's cape on the court than when he is off! To put these numbers in perspective, let's compare them to the Wolves' best player...KAT. The Wolves are 12.2 points better when KAT is on the court compared to off, and Cleaning the Glass attributes 27 more wins to KAT.

The Bulls are a much better team than the Wolves this year (although I would argue the gap is beginning to close as KAT gets back to normal), and the casual NBA fan will say it's because of Zach. But I would argue that the Bulls have done what Gersson Rosas has failed to do...assembled a roster chock full of true 2-way players compared to the Wolves' collection of primarily one-way players. Guys like Temple, Young, Satoransky and Valentine were terrific last night, and while they don't have any of Zach's offensive flash, have been consistently plus players all season. The Wolves are not going to be contenders until they can develop some true 2-way depth like the Bulls have. And I'll keep cheering for Zach to figure it out on the defensive end...if he can ever become a plus defender (and he certainly has the size and athleticism to get there), he could even find himself in the MVP discussion, because his offense is that good and continues to get better.

FNG wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:The loss isn't KAT's fault obviously, as the bench played poorly this game, but he continues to prove that he isn't quite in that first tier of NBA talent yet. All-star caliber? Sure. All-NBA 1st or 2nd team? No way.

May be after he gets himself completely healthy and emotionally on track he will get there eventually. Right now he's a damn good player, but not top 10 or 12.

I think KAT's been ast that 2nd team all-NBA level before. He's obviously not at the top of his game at the moment, which is no surprise given what's happened to him - the death of his mother and other relatives, a torn wrist ligament and Covid infection. He's been back playing for only about a week since recovering from Covid.

Having said that, no doubt in my mind that Zach LaVine is playing at an all-NBA level right now. He could still be a T-Wolf.

I don't know. Something is still just a bit off to me with LaVine. There is no denying that he is a super gifted shooter and scorer. But he still turns it over too much and while he does get his fair share of assists, I don't necessarily see him getting guys a bunch of easy buckets playing off of him.

But yeah, at some point when you shoot and score THAT efficiently, it compensates for a lot of other flaws.

Shame on you, Q, for hanging that breaking ball out there for me! I'll take a swing at it. Yes, something is off with Zach, and I think you know what is is...the guy just doesn't play any defense and. last night at least, turns the ball over too much. I don't think anyone has mentioned his 7 turnovers last night.

The "it doesn't matter if you get outscored almost every game when you're on the court as long as you score a lot of points" crowd is going to scoff at this, but Zach is having one of the most bizarre seasons in the history of the NBA. There are very few players I enjoy watching play offensive basketball than Zach LaVine...he is an extraordinary scorer inside and out. And I always cheer for him because he seems like a terrific guy...Billy Donavan says he is even a better person than he is player, and I believe this.

But it's almost impossible to ignore his negative impact on the court. Despite his outstanding scoring that has deservedly won him a spot in the all-star game, the Bulls are 8.5 points worse this season when Zach is on the court than when he is off...EIGHT POINT FIVE! (and 1100 minutes is no small sample size, especially when these stats seem to be repeated by Zach every season). Cleaning the Glass reports that Zach's on/off performance adds up to 22 fewer wins...22! And the answer jumps off the page ...defense. Bulls' opponents score an unbelievable 15.6 more points per 100 possessions when Zach is waving his matador's cape on the court than when he is off! To put these numbers in perspective, let's compare them to the Wolves' best player...KAT. The Wolves are 12.2 points better when KAT is on the court compared to off, and Cleaning the Glass attributes 27 more wins to KAT.

The Bulls are a much better team than the Wolves this year (although I would argue the gap is beginning to close as KAT gets back to normal), and the casual NBA fan will say it's because of Zach. But I would argue that the Bulls have done what Gersson Rosas has failed to do...assembled a roster chock full of true 2-way players compared to the Wolves' collection of primarily one-way players. Guys like Temple, Young, Satoransky and Valentine were terrific last night, and while they don't have any of Zach's offensive flash, have been consistently plus players all season. The Wolves are not going to be contenders until they can develop some true 2-way depth like the Bulls have. And I'll keep cheering for Zach to figure it out on the defensive end...if he can ever become a plus defender (and he certainly has the size and athleticism to get there), he could even find himself in the MVP discussion, because his offense is that good and continues to get better.

What if the Wolves don't win 27 games?

FNG wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:The loss isn't KAT's fault obviously, as the bench played poorly this game, but he continues to prove that he isn't quite in that first tier of NBA talent yet. All-star caliber? Sure. All-NBA 1st or 2nd team? No way.

May be after he gets himself completely healthy and emotionally on track he will get there eventually. Right now he's a damn good player, but not top 10 or 12.

I think KAT's been ast that 2nd team all-NBA level before. He's obviously not at the top of his game at the moment, which is no surprise given what's happened to him - the death of his mother and other relatives, a torn wrist ligament and Covid infection. He's been back playing for only about a week since recovering from Covid.

Having said that, no doubt in my mind that Zach LaVine is playing at an all-NBA level right now. He could still be a T-Wolf.

I don't know. Something is still just a bit off to me with LaVine. There is no denying that he is a super gifted shooter and scorer. But he still turns it over too much and while he does get his fair share of assists, I don't necessarily see him getting guys a bunch of easy buckets playing off of him.

But yeah, at some point when you shoot and score THAT efficiently, it compensates for a lot of other flaws.

Shame on you, Q, for hanging that breaking ball out there for me! I'll take a swing at it. Yes, something is off with Zach, and I think you know what is is...the guy just doesn't play any defense and. last night at least, turns the ball over too much. I don't think anyone has mentioned his 7 turnovers last night.

The "it doesn't matter if you get outscored almost every game when you're on the court as long as you score a lot of points" crowd is going to scoff at this, but Zach is having one of the most bizarre seasons in the history of the NBA. There are very few players I enjoy watching play offensive basketball than Zach LaVine...he is an extraordinary scorer inside and out. And I always cheer for him because he seems like a terrific guy...Billy Donavan says he is even a better person than he is player, and I believe this.

But it's almost impossible to ignore his negative impact on the court. Despite his outstanding scoring that has deservedly won him a spot in the all-star game, the Bulls are 8.5 points worse this season when Zach is on the court than when he is off...EIGHT POINT FIVE! (and 1100 minutes is no small sample size, especially when these stats seem to be repeated by Zach every season). Cleaning the Glass reports that Zach's on/off performance adds up to 22 fewer wins...22! And the answer jumps off the page ...defense. Bulls' opponents score an unbelievable 15.6 more points per 100 possessions when Zach is waving his matador's cape on the court than when he is off! To put these numbers in perspective, let's compare them to the Wolves' best player...KAT. The Wolves are 12.2 points better when KAT is on the court compared to off, and Cleaning the Glass attributes 27 more wins to KAT.

The Bulls are a much better team than the Wolves this year (although I would argue the gap is beginning to close as KAT gets back to normal), and the casual NBA fan will say it's because of Zach. But I would argue that the Bulls have done what Gersson Rosas has failed to do...assembled a roster chock full of true 2-way players compared to the Wolves' collection of primarily one-way players. Guys like Temple, Young, Satoransky and Valentine were terrific last night, and while they don't have any of Zach's offensive flash, have been consistently plus players all season. The Wolves are not going to be contenders until they can develop some true 2-way depth like the Bulls have. And I'll keep cheering for Zach to figure it out on the defensive end...if he can ever become a plus defender (and he certainly has the size and athleticism to get there), he could even find himself in the MVP discussion, because his offense is that good and continues to get better.

FNG, where did you got that number -8.5? I was looking basketball reference and there Zach has -5.9 on-off.

I think Zach's on-off numbers are bad this year mainly because Bulls have played majority of the season super young starting five. From all their starters, Zach at 25 is oldest and has by far best on-off numbers. Lauri is 23 and has -12.3 on-off, Carter is 21 and has -13.2, White is 20 and -12.2 and Williams 19 and -8.4.

Correspondingly Chicago bench contains mainly veterans and they all have had much better on-off numbers. So I think if Zach wouldn't have played majority of minutes this year with really inexperienced teammates, he would actually already had pretty decent net rating.

Another loss, but at least we continued our February competitiveness after a blowout last game. They're breaking our hearts with these close losses, but I think all of us prefer the close losses to blowouts like we suffered at the beginning of the year and against the Bucks. The new emphasis on getting KAT involved (duh) is quite promising, and if Finch keeps emphasizing KAT, I'm convinced a lot of these close losses are going to become wins.

KAT was terrific last night, but ultimately his fouling out was a big factor in the loss. The killer was his third foul...a silly reach in after Kornet had blocked his shot (KAT obviously was more comfortable being guarded by the smaller Carter than Kornet...I was relieved Donovan didn't use Kornet on KAT more. KAT is always going to get called for moving screens and pushing off on offense, so he simple can't afford emotional fouls like that one. I'm sure the overtime would have been significantly different if we had KAT out there instead of Reid.

The other big factor in the loss was Finch's insistence in putting Beasley on Lavine. We need Beasley's offense, but most of his 37 minutes had him on Zach...and Zach feasted. It was a complete mismatch. And Donovan didn't even return the favor, because he wisely had Temple on Beas most of the game, while trying to hide Zach's defense on Ant (hence Ant's impressive 21/9/6)...Beas would have easily had 35 if Donovan had put Zach on him. I'm still on the Finch bus, but this was a clear case of being outcoached. Zach is going to score on anyone...he's that good...but Nowell, McDaniels and even V8 at least made him work hard.

There were some things I liked last night:

1) Many here blamed Ryan for not getting involved, and I put some of the blame on KAT because none of his three coaches had found a way to get him involved. I was wrong...way wrong. The difference in Finch's offense is palpable...an extraordinary result in just two games. KAT is clearly the focus now. 24/8/5 are superb stats for a guy limited to 31 minutes due to foul issues. KAT had a couple silly turnovers, but overall had a terrific game. I'm excited to see how this KAT-oriented offense develops as Finch actually gets some practice time.

2) Another great game for Rubio. No ball stopping, and a remarkable 10 assists against NO turnovers. His chemistry with KAT and Beasley is very good, and he also seems to be developing a relationship with Vando similar to what he had with Pek. Vando is not going to get 6 without Rubio spoon feeding him.

WolvesFan21 wrote:

FNG wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:The loss isn't KAT's fault obviously, as the bench played poorly this game, but he continues to prove that he isn't quite in that first tier of NBA talent yet. All-star caliber? Sure. All-NBA 1st or 2nd team? No way.

May be after he gets himself completely healthy and emotionally on track he will get there eventually. Right now he's a damn good player, but not top 10 or 12.

I think KAT's been ast that 2nd team all-NBA level before. He's obviously not at the top of his game at the moment, which is no surprise given what's happened to him - the death of his mother and other relatives, a torn wrist ligament and Covid infection. He's been back playing for only about a week since recovering from Covid.

Having said that, no doubt in my mind that Zach LaVine is playing at an all-NBA level right now. He could still be a T-Wolf.

I don't know. Something is still just a bit off to me with LaVine. There is no denying that he is a super gifted shooter and scorer. But he still turns it over too much and while he does get his fair share of assists, I don't necessarily see him getting guys a bunch of easy buckets playing off of him.

But yeah, at some point when you shoot and score THAT efficiently, it compensates for a lot of other flaws.

Shame on you, Q, for hanging that breaking ball out there for me! I'll take a swing at it. Yes, something is off with Zach, and I think you know what is is...the guy just doesn't play any defense and. last night at least, turns the ball over too much. I don't think anyone has mentioned his 7 turnovers last night.

The "it doesn't matter if you get outscored almost every game when you're on the court as long as you score a lot of points" crowd is going to scoff at this, but Zach is having one of the most bizarre seasons in the history of the NBA. There are very few players I enjoy watching play offensive basketball than Zach LaVine...he is an extraordinary scorer inside and out. And I always cheer for him because he seems like a terrific guy...Billy Donavan says he is even a better person than he is player, and I believe this.

But it's almost impossible to ignore his negative impact on the court. Despite his outstanding scoring that has deservedly won him a spot in the all-star game, the Bulls are 8.5 points worse this season when Zach is on the court than when he is off...EIGHT POINT FIVE! (and 1100 minutes is no small sample size, especially when these stats seem to be repeated by Zach every season). Cleaning the Glass reports that Zach's on/off performance adds up to 22 fewer wins...22! And the answer jumps off the page ...defense. Bulls' opponents score an unbelievable 15.6 more points per 100 possessions when Zach is waving his matador's cape on the court than when he is off! To put these numbers in perspective, let's compare them to the Wolves' best player...KAT. The Wolves are 12.2 points better when KAT is on the court compared to off, and Cleaning the Glass attributes 27 more wins to KAT.

The Bulls are a much better team than the Wolves this year (although I would argue the gap is beginning to close as KAT gets back to normal), and the casual NBA fan will say it's because of Zach. But I would argue that the Bulls have done what Gersson Rosas has failed to do...assembled a roster chock full of true 2-way players compared to the Wolves' collection of primarily one-way players. Guys like Temple, Young, Satoransky and Valentine were terrific last night, and while they don't have any of Zach's offensive flash, have been consistently plus players all season. The Wolves are not going to be contenders until they can develop some true 2-way depth like the Bulls have. And I'll keep cheering for Zach to figure it out on the defensive end...if he can ever become a plus defender (and he certainly has the size and athleticism to get there), he could even find himself in the MVP discussion, because his offense is that good and continues to get better.

What if the Wolves don't win 27 games?

Ha, good reply, WF! All stats are flawed and this is one of them. Frankly I don't know how wins added (or subtracted) is calculated, so I use this stat more to gauge one player's performance against another's. And the difference here is huge and impossible to ignore.

Still I have to admit I got a kick out of your response!

FNG, It's not just Zach's defense, but even his offense doesn't always seem totally in synch with team concepts (and the turnover issue isn't unique to last night).

At the end of the day, Zach's shooting and scoring is good enough that with the right teammates, I think he can absolutely reverse the negative On/Off rating. I think Patrick Williams was probably a good pick for them, as he could eventually be a solid 2-way role player. Not sure if Coby White is the ideal compliment in the back court.

Another loss, but at least we continued our February competitiveness after a lopsided loss last game. They're breaking our hearts with these close losses, but I think all of us prefer the close losses to blowouts like we suffered at the beginning of the year and against the Bucks. The new emphasis on getting KAT involved (duh) is quite promising, and if Finch keeps emphasizing KAT, I'm convinced a lot of these close losses are going to become wins.

KAT was terrific last night, but ultimately his fouling out was a big factor in the loss. The killer was his third foul...a silly reach in after Kornet had blocked his shot (KAT obviously was more comfortable being guarded by the smaller Carter than Kornet...I was relieved Donovan didn't use Kornet on KAT more). KAT is always going to get called for moving screens and pushing off on offense, so he simple can't afford emotional fouls like that one. I'm sure the overtime would have been significantly different if we had KAT out there instead of Reid.

The other big factor in the loss was Finch's insistence in putting Beasley on Lavine. We need Beasley's offense, but most of his 37 minutes had him on Zach...and Zach feasted. It was a complete mismatch. And Donovan didn't even return the favor, because he wisely had Temple on Beas most of the game, while trying to hide Zach's defense on Ant (hence Ant's impressive 21/9/6)...Beas would have easily had 35 if Donovan had put Zach on him. I'm still on the Finch bus, but this was a clear case of being outcoached by Donovan. Zach is going to score on anyone...he's that good...but Nowell, McDaniels and even V8 at least made him work hard.

There were some things I liked last night:

1) Many here blamed Ryan for not getting involved, and I put some of the blame on KAT because none of his three coaches had found a way to get him involved. I was wrong...way wrong. The difference in Finch's offense is palpable...an extraordinary result in just two games. KAT is clearly the focus now. 24/8/5 are superb stats for a guy limited to 31 minutes due to foul issues. KAT had a couple silly turnovers, but overall had a terrific game. I'm excited to see how this KAT-oriented offense develops as Finch actually gets some practice time.

2) Another great game for Rubio. No ball stopping, and a remarkable 10 assists against NO turnovers. His chemistry with KAT and Beasley is very good, and he also seems to be developing a relationship with Vando similar to what he had with Pek. Vando is not going to get 6 without Rubio spoon feeding him. I think he is doing exactly what Finch wants him to do...get KAT involved, give our role players easy looks when the focus is on KAT, and protect the ball.

3) I don't want to jinx him, but are Nowell's shooting woes behind him? Another efficient scoring night with 12 points in only 19 minutes. I liked his smart defense also. He needs to knock down his open threes more consistently to earn regular minutes, but previous history in college and the G League tells me this will come.

Q12543 wrote:FNG, It's not just Zach's defense, but even his offense doesn't always seem totally in synch with team concepts (and the turnover issue isn't unique to last night).

At the end of the day, Zach's shooting and scoring is good enough that with the right teammates, I think he can absolutely reverse the negative On/Off rating. I think Patrick Williams was probably a good pick for them, as he could eventually be a solid 2-way role player. Not sure if Coby White is the ideal compliment in the back court.

I'm not giving up on Zach's improving his defense and ball handling either, Q, and if he figures these things out, he's going to be a great player for a long time.

Another loss, but at least we continued our February competitiveness after a lopsided loss last game. They're breaking our hearts with these close losses, but I think all of us prefer the close losses to blowouts like we suffered at the beginning of the year and against the Bucks. The new emphasis on getting KAT involved (duh) is quite promising, and if Finch keeps emphasizing KAT, I'm convinced a lot of these close losses are going to become wins.

KAT was terrific last night, but ultimately his fouling out was a big factor in the loss. The killer was his third foul...a silly reach in after Kornet had blocked his shot (KAT obviously was more comfortable being guarded by the smaller Carter than Kornet...I was relieved Donovan didn't use Kornet on KAT more). KAT is always going to get called for moving screens and pushing off on offense, so he simple can't afford emotional fouls like that one. I'm sure the overtime would have been significantly different if we had KAT out there instead of Reid.

The other big factor in the loss was Finch's insistence in putting Beasley on Lavine. We need Beasley's offense, but most of his 37 minutes had him on Zach...and Zach feasted. It was a complete mismatch. And Donovan didn't even return the favor, because he wisely had Temple on Beas most of the game, while trying to hide Zach's defense on Ant (hence Ant's impressive 21/9/6)...Beas would have easily had 35 if Donovan had put Zach on him. I'm still on the Finch bus, but this was a clear case of being outcoached by Donovan. Zach is going to score on anyone...he's that good...but Nowell, McDaniels and even V8 at least made him work hard.

There were some things I liked last night:

1) Many here blamed Ryan for not getting involved, and I put some of the blame on KAT because none of his three coaches had found a way to get him involved. I was wrong...way wrong. The difference in Finch's offense is palpable...an extraordinary result in just two games. KAT is clearly the focus now. 24/8/5 are superb stats for a guy limited to 31 minutes due to foul issues. KAT had a couple silly turnovers, but overall had a terrific game. I'm excited to see how this KAT-oriented offense develops as Finch actually gets some practice time.

2) Another great game for Rubio. No ball stopping, and a remarkable 10 assists against NO turnovers. His chemistry with KAT and Beasley is very good, and he also seems to be developing a relationship with Vando similar to what he had with Pek. Vando is not going to get 6 without Rubio spoon feeding him. I think he is doing exactly what Finch wants him to do...get KAT involved, give our role players easy looks when the focus is on KAT, and protect the ball.

3) I don't want to jinx him, but are Nowell's shooting woes behind him? Another efficient scoring night with 12 points in only 19 minutes. I liked his smart defense also. He needs to knock down his open threes more consistently to earn regular minutes, but previous history in college and the G League tells me this will come.


Finally, where the F was Culver? He said he was ready to go against the Bucks, and Finch says he planned to give him 15 minutes last night. But nope. Replace JO's 16 minutes with Culver, and I think we win in regulation.

FNG wrote:

... while trying to hide Zach's defense on Ant (hence Ant's impressive 21/9/6)...

I caution against judging any young Wolves player by volume stats. Whether it's JR Rider, Rashad McCants, Zach Lavine, Andrew Wiggins, et al... we've been down that road before.

- Edwards shot 35% on 20 shots to get those 21 points.
- He's shot better than 50% in a game 2 times season.
- He's shot below 32%... 13 times in 33 games.

While I like to see him adding to the "do-stuff" stats... the efficiency of his game is directly leading to losses. I know that's "part of the plan" per usual. Previously, that has led to a lot of bad habits that never led to players figuring out how to play winning basketball.

The Wolves gave Edwards a team-high 37 minutes. And he's been averaging more points than Towns in the past couple of weeks.

We all know that the team doesn't really care at this point about winning games.
We all know that Edwards must develop and get better.
We might disagree on giving him 35 seemingly accountability-free minutes per game is the best strategy.

Mikkeman wrote:

FNG wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:The loss isn't KAT's fault obviously, as the bench played poorly this game, but he continues to prove that he isn't quite in that first tier of NBA talent yet. All-star caliber? Sure. All-NBA 1st or 2nd team? No way.

May be after he gets himself completely healthy and emotionally on track he will get there eventually. Right now he's a damn good player, but not top 10 or 12.

I think KAT's been ast that 2nd team all-NBA level before. He's obviously not at the top of his game at the moment, which is no surprise given what's happened to him - the death of his mother and other relatives, a torn wrist ligament and Covid infection. He's been back playing for only about a week since recovering from Covid.

Having said that, no doubt in my mind that Zach LaVine is playing at an all-NBA level right now. He could still be a T-Wolf.

I don't know. Something is still just a bit off to me with LaVine. There is no denying that he is a super gifted shooter and scorer. But he still turns it over too much and while he does get his fair share of assists, I don't necessarily see him getting guys a bunch of easy buckets playing off of him.

But yeah, at some point when you shoot and score THAT efficiently, it compensates for a lot of other flaws.

Shame on you, Q, for hanging that breaking ball out there for me! I'll take a swing at it. Yes, something is off with Zach, and I think you know what is is...the guy just doesn't play any defense and. last night at least, turns the ball over too much. I don't think anyone has mentioned his 7 turnovers last night.

The "it doesn't matter if you get outscored almost every game when you're on the court as long as you score a lot of points" crowd is going to scoff at this, but Zach is having one of the most bizarre seasons in the history of the NBA. There are very few players I enjoy watching play offensive basketball than Zach LaVine...he is an extraordinary scorer inside and out. And I always cheer for him because he seems like a terrific guy...Billy Donavan says he is even a better person than he is player, and I believe this.

But it's almost impossible to ignore his negative impact on the court. Despite his outstanding scoring that has deservedly won him a spot in the all-star game, the Bulls are 8.5 points worse this season when Zach is on the court than when he is off...EIGHT POINT FIVE! (and 1100 minutes is no small sample size, especially when these stats seem to be repeated by Zach every season). Cleaning the Glass reports that Zach's on/off performance adds up to 22 fewer wins...22! And the answer jumps off the page ...defense. Bulls' opponents score an unbelievable 15.6 more points per 100 possessions when Zach is waving his matador's cape on the court than when he is off! To put these numbers in perspective, let's compare them to the Wolves' best player...KAT. The Wolves are 12.2 points better when KAT is on the court compared to off, and Cleaning the Glass attributes 27 more wins to KAT.

The Bulls are a much better team than the Wolves this year (although I would argue the gap is beginning to close as KAT gets back to normal), and the casual NBA fan will say it's because of Zach. But I would argue that the Bulls have done what Gersson Rosas has failed to do...assembled a roster chock full of true 2-way players compared to the Wolves' collection of primarily one-way players. Guys like Temple, Young, Satoransky and Valentine were terrific last night, and while they don't have any of Zach's offensive flash, have been consistently plus players all season. The Wolves are not going to be contenders until they can develop some true 2-way depth like the Bulls have. And I'll keep cheering for Zach to figure it out on the defensive end...if he can ever become a plus defender (and he certainly has the size and athleticism to get there), he could even find himself in the MVP discussion, because his offense is that good and continues to get better.

FNG, where did you got that number -8.5? I was looking basketball reference and there Zach has -5.9 on-off.

I think Zach's on-off numbers are bad this year mainly because Bulls have played majority of the season super young starting five. From all their starters, Zach at 25 is oldest and has by far best on-off numbers. Lauri is 23 and has -12.3 on-off, Carter is 21 and has -13.2, White is 20 and -12.2 and Williams 19 and -8.4.

Correspondingly Chicago bench contains mainly veterans and they all have had much better on-off numbers. So I think if Zach wouldn't have played majority of minutes this year with really inexperienced teammates, he would actually already had pretty decent net rating.

I'm not FNG but he got it from cleaningtheglass.com it eliminates garbage time and end of quarter heaves when they do their analysis