Minnesota Sports Forum

I think there is wide agreement here that Simmons is an elite defender, rebounder and facilitator.
And there is also agreement that Simmons is a very poor outside shooter. But I think we are overemphasizing that last point, and underemphasizing the positive impact he has on offense. I'm more interested in how efficiently a player scores, and Simmons 56 eFG% is much better than either DLO or Beasley. Simmons is a terrific finisher, effective on fast breaks, and smart in shot selection (except when he passes rather than taking a wide open dunk!). So let's add efficient scorer to the elite skills we all agree on above, as "offensively-challenged" Simmons has averaged 16 PPG for his career with an eFG% of 56%.

And one more minor point. Lip asks how KAT would respond to us trading his friend DLO. Well, KAT and Simmons are also reported to be good friends off the court (yes, there was the incident where it looked like Simmons was choking KAT, but some of my biggest fights on the court have also involved some of my best friends!). I think KAT would look at this as trading one of his buddies for another one of his buddies, and if it led to more wins, I suspect he would love the deal.

Abe, I think if Beasley is willing to be a 6th man, the "not enough basketballs" problem will largely be resolved.

As for Simmons, I think it's just a matter of what people are willing to give up. If it's DLO AND Beasley, I just can't see this franchise replacing that much competent 3-point shooting, which becomes even more critical with Simmons in the mix.

Q12543 wrote:Abe, I think if Beasley is willing to be a 6th man, the "not enough basketballs" problem will largely be resolved.

As for Simmons, I think it's just a matter of what people are willing to give up. If it's DLO AND Beasley, I just can't see this franchise replacing that much competent 3-point shooting, which becomes even more critical with Simmons in the mix.

IF... that's the key.

And Russell + Beasley + Towns + Edwards + McDaniels + random big man everybody covets still looks rough defensively. And you'd still probably have one player (5) who can't shoot.

The beauty of having a guy like Towns is that he's an elite shooter for his size. For me, adding a big who can't shoot simply negates what makes him unique. Towns versatility/shooting lets the Wolves put together more unconventional lineups around him. For example, an athletic 4 with defensive chops and very good creative skills with the ball.

It worked in Philadelphia pretty well. But Embiid is much better on the block and gets a lot of touches there... and takes nearly 1/2 as many threes as Towns with much lower efficiency.

Now I'm not suggesting any move to Simmons is a sure thing. But for an organization who's lived on hope and promise, but wasn't very visionary about any of it... maybe it signals a change.

We still have the hope and promise part, only with a guy who's actually delivered on SOME of it, even if not all of it. Now to the visionary stuff. Edwards is the shot maker. Towns is the shooting big man. And Simmons... imagine him in a Draymond Green type role. How much would we covet a more athletic, more talented, better Draymond Green? This is where the Wolves have to do their homework. Work their channels.

Is Simmons willing to join Edwards and Towns? In Minnesota? Would he embrace a role as a glorified 4 that cedes attention to the top two guys?

A guy willing to pass. Willing to play defense. Willing to be Towns and Edwards sidekick as they battle it out for top dog. Imagine a Simmons who goes to a team with fewer expectations who can now be a #3 instead of #1a or #2 on offense. And a guy who can change the team's identity overnight.

If I didn't know any better I'd think you were describing 2012 Ricky Rubio.
My point is, we've already gone this route before. Facilitator , good D , can't shoot.

PorkChop wrote:A guy willing to pass. Willing to play defense. Willing to be Towns and Edwards sidekick as they battle it out for top dog. Imagine a Simmons who goes to a team with fewer expectations who can now be a #3 instead of #1a or #2 on offense. And a guy who can change the team's identity overnight.

If I didn't know any better I'd think you were describing 2012 Ricky Rubio.
My point is, we've already gone this route before. Facilitator , good D , can't shoot.

Yet again... we dismiss/underplay what players can do... to focus entirely on what they can't do.

Simmons and Rubio are entirely different players...

But I realize you had your Rubio bashing quota to hit, so fair enough.

I'm going to make the point again, or at least every time we malign Simmons for his poor shooting and glorify DLO and Beasley for their offense. Every time Ben takes a shot, it has a statistically better chance of resulting in points than when either DLO or Beasley does...that's what eFG% tells us. And that is true for this past season, and it's true for their respective entire careers. And I don't need to hear the argument that Simmons isn't the volume shooter that DLO or Beas are, because with KAT and Ant, we don't need another volume shooter. And then there's the Grand Canyon of difference between their defensive competency. Shying away from a Simmons for DLO/Beas deal because it doesn't leave us with enough offense just isn't supported by statistics, guys. I don't think DLO/Beas is enough to get the deal done, but it couldn't be any more of a no brainer from a Wolves perspective.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Abe, I think if Beasley is willing to be a 6th man, the "not enough basketballs" problem will largely be resolved.

As for Simmons, I think it's just a matter of what people are willing to give up. If it's DLO AND Beasley, I just can't see this franchise replacing that much competent 3-point shooting, which becomes even more critical with Simmons in the mix.

IF... that's the key.

And Russell + Beasley + Towns + Edwards + McDaniels + random big man everybody covets still looks rough defensively. And you'd still probably have one player (5) who can't shoot.

The beauty of having a guy like Towns is that he's an elite shooter for his size. For me, adding a big who can't shoot simply negates what makes him unique. Towns versatility/shooting lets the Wolves put together more unconventional lineups around him. For example, an athletic 4 with defensive chops and very good creative skills with the ball.

It worked in Philadelphia pretty well. But Embiid is much better on the block and gets a lot of touches there... and takes nearly 1/2 as many threes as Towns with much lower efficiency.

Now I'm not suggesting any move to Simmons is a sure thing. But for an organization who's lived on hope and promise, but wasn't very visionary about any of it... maybe it signals a change.

We still have the hope and promise part, only with a guy who's actually delivered on SOME of it, even if not all of it. Now to the visionary stuff. Edwards is the shot maker. Towns is the shooting big man. And Simmons... imagine him in a Draymond Green type role. How much would we covet a more athletic, more talented, better Draymond Green? This is where the Wolves have to do their homework. Work their channels.

Is Simmons willing to join Edwards and Towns? In Minnesota? Would he embrace a role as a glorified 4 that cedes attention to the top two guys?

I think if we get Simmons, it does change the calculus a bit defensively and makes it next to impossible to go get a big non-shooting Center:

Simmons - PG
Beasley - SG (assuming he's not traded to get Simmons)
Edwards - SF
McDaniels - PF
KAT - C

Alternatively, if Simmons is not in the mix and we go get a Steven Adams, our starting lineup might look like this:

DLO - PG
Edwards - SG
McDaniels - SF
KAT - PF
Adams - C

Interesting contrast. I do think Adams' salary slot and role, unlike Simmons, would be more like "token starting Center". He likely would NOT be in end-of-game lineups and play around 25MPG. To me his primary purpose is to help protect KAT defensively early in halves. Our closing lineup would absolutely have KAT at Center and Adams on the bench.

Q12543 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Abe, I think if Beasley is willing to be a 6th man, the "not enough basketballs" problem will largely be resolved.

As for Simmons, I think it's just a matter of what people are willing to give up. If it's DLO AND Beasley, I just can't see this franchise replacing that much competent 3-point shooting, which becomes even more critical with Simmons in the mix.

IF... that's the key.

And Russell + Beasley + Towns + Edwards + McDaniels + random big man everybody covets still looks rough defensively. And you'd still probably have one player (5) who can't shoot.

The beauty of having a guy like Towns is that he's an elite shooter for his size. For me, adding a big who can't shoot simply negates what makes him unique. Towns versatility/shooting lets the Wolves put together more unconventional lineups around him. For example, an athletic 4 with defensive chops and very good creative skills with the ball.

It worked in Philadelphia pretty well. But Embiid is much better on the block and gets a lot of touches there... and takes nearly 1/2 as many threes as Towns with much lower efficiency.

Now I'm not suggesting any move to Simmons is a sure thing. But for an organization who's lived on hope and promise, but wasn't very visionary about any of it... maybe it signals a change.

We still have the hope and promise part, only with a guy who's actually delivered on SOME of it, even if not all of it. Now to the visionary stuff. Edwards is the shot maker. Towns is the shooting big man. And Simmons... imagine him in a Draymond Green type role. How much would we covet a more athletic, more talented, better Draymond Green? This is where the Wolves have to do their homework. Work their channels.

Is Simmons willing to join Edwards and Towns? In Minnesota? Would he embrace a role as a glorified 4 that cedes attention to the top two guys?

I think if we get Simmons, it does change the calculus a bit defensively and makes it next to impossible to go get a big non-shooting Center:

Simmons - PG
Beasley - SG (assuming he's not traded to get Simmons)
Edwards - SF
McDaniels - PF
KAT - C

Alternatively, if Simmons is not in the mix and we go get a Steven Adams, our starting lineup might look like this:

DLO - PG
Edwards - SG
McDaniels - SF
KAT - PF
Adams - C

Interesting contrast. I do think Adams' salary slot and role, unlike Simmons, would be more like "token starting Center". He likely would NOT be in end-of-game lineups and play around 25MPG. To me his primary purpose is to help protect KAT defensively early in halves. Our closing lineup would absolutely have KAT at Center and Adams on the bench.

I don't know if this is possible but let's say the Wolves can trade Dlo and Beasley for Simmons.

Couldn't we flip Rubio, Hernangomez and a protected 1st for Porzingis. The mavs want off his contract. This allows the Mavs to have max cap in 2022 when FA are great.

Starters of:

Simmons
Ant
McDaniels
Porzingis
Kat

A bench with: Nowell, Okogie, Culver, Naz, Bolmaro, Layman, possibly Vandy, with the MLE also.

I don't know Kek...I'm not a big Porzingas fan. I get that he's skilled and provides another big that can space the floor, but he seems oft-injured and even when he plays I've never thought of him as having a great b-ball IQ. That lineup would be really lengthy and rangy though with Ant as it's shortest player.

FNG wrote:I'm going to make the point again, or at least every time we malign Simmons for his poor shooting and glorify DLO and Beasley for their offense. Every time Ben takes a shot, it has a statistically better chance of resulting in points than when either DLO or Beasley does...that's what eFG% tells us. And that is true for this past season, and it's true for their respective entire careers. And I don't need to hear the argument that Simmons isn't the volume shooter that DLO or Beas are, because with KAT and Ant, we don't need another volume shooter. And then there's the Grand Canyon of difference between their defensive competency. Shying away from a Simmons for DLO/Beas deal because it doesn't leave us with enough offense just isn't supported by statistics, guys. I don't think DLO/Beas is enough to get the deal done, but it couldn't be any more of a no brainer from a Wolves perspective.

Simmons wasn't an All Star either the last three years for no good reason. He's arguably the best defender in the NBA, at least in the conversation, has elite passing and handle. Finishes around the rim at a very high level. Going down hill to the rim is maybe only outdone by LeBron (pre injury) and Giannis.

Pork comparing him to Rubio is just silly.

He is more efficient then both DLO and Beas. on offense The only thing I would say on the contrary is that he can clog the paint some in the half court, since he simply doesn't shoot 3's. However, if you weigh his entire game, he's a guy I would love on our team.

Like I said, he doesn't make the All Star game 3 years in a row for looking nice in his uniform. His strengths far outweigh his weaknesses.