Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:

Agree, and he's prolly a better rebounder. I do feel bad for Gorgi, I think Tibs has killed his confidence

Q, Doper and Duke -- I agree with all three of you. Q's right that Gorgui is the best option compared to Aldrich, Patton and Jefferson for all the reasons Q gave. I also agree with Doper that Thibs is too tied to his system and, on this issue, needs to play Belly more. Finally, I agree with Duke that Thibs has killed Gorgui's confidence. As a result, we're not getting Gorgui's best. But Thibs hasn't been getting the best or the most out of Belly either.

I've always liked Gorgui, but his contract was a mistake and it was a further mistake to keep Gorgui after signing Gibson. This is the era of stretch 4s. Gibson isn't a stretch 4 but is exceptional in many other ways -- offensive efficiency, defensively. The smarter move last summer would have been to trade Gorgui for a shorter-term contract and sign a stretch 4 like Illyasova.

Gorgui's confidence has nothing to do with him being unable to move laterally or show on the PnR. Thibs did nothing but praise G for is play last season, so I don't see how Thibs bears any responsibility for G's play now.

I am pretty sure that Gorgui's contract is untradeable on its own, and Thibs is too stubborn to admit he screwed up by using a first rounder to unload it (if that is enough?).

I agree that Gorgui's confidence has nothing to do with his slow lateral movement. In fact, Gorgui's main problem is the fact that he's slow overall. But lack of confidence and playing time have hurt his offensive game. He's always been a good mid-range shooter and good passer. He's slid back in both categories.

I agree that his contract is probably untradeable now. And there's no way I'd give up a first round pick just to get another team to take him. But I think he was tradeable for decent value last summer, coming off a pretty good season for him. Thibs' failure to deal him last summer was an error in judgment.

I'd like to see your post from last summer calling to trade Dieng for value.

Come on Monster, you're showing your smarmy side again. You won't find that quote because I never called for trading him last summer. If I had been PBO, failing to trade him would have been MY error of judgment. But guess what, I wasn't PBO; Thibs was. So that makes it Thibs' error. Whether I would have made the same mistake at the time doesn't change the analysis of whether it was a mistake. You do understand that, don't you?

First of all I had to look up "smarmy" to see the definition. Sorry if my post came on too strong.

That's fine if all you are saying that it was Thibs mistake. From my perspective the post read more like you knew what was to happen all along and Thibs is a moron for not seeing it despite it not being something you would have done however many months ago. I guess what I mean is that if it's such an egregious error since we are armchair GMs on this board it may be worth mentioning we also screwed up too. Both of us are big Dieng fans from the draft on. How many of us had basically no interest in dealing Dieng a few months ago? How many of us praised that contract when it was given? There are a lot of smart folks here including yourself.

Like you I agree I wouldn't compound the mistake of dealing Dieng by giving up a 1st round pick to get rid of him. Why?
I think he can absolutley still play at a rotation level for a good team. You mentioned his midrange shooting numbers slipping. He may have had a bad/brutal stretch recently but the percentages are as strong as ever. His overall numbers across the board are right in line with his career numbers. Some are a little better some a little less but he is still putting up solid numbers. He isn't showing well on the court but despite all that the productivity is there. So it's possible the guy ends up being a worthwhile player for this team (maybe adjusts to being a bench player) or another team buys low on him in a deal this summer where we get a different bad contract/s. One thing that would help is if Thibs was less ridged in his rotations and went with some matchups sometimes not playing Dieng at all when it doesn't make sense if teams go small.

Some of this isn't new info but thoughts?

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

sjm34 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:

Agree, and he's prolly a better rebounder. I do feel bad for Gorgi, I think Tibs has killed his confidence

Q, Doper and Duke -- I agree with all three of you. Q's right that Gorgui is the best option compared to Aldrich, Patton and Jefferson for all the reasons Q gave. I also agree with Doper that Thibs is too tied to his system and, on this issue, needs to play Belly more. Finally, I agree with Duke that Thibs has killed Gorgui's confidence. As a result, we're not getting Gorgui's best. But Thibs hasn't been getting the best or the most out of Belly either.

I've always liked Gorgui, but his contract was a mistake and it was a further mistake to keep Gorgui after signing Gibson. This is the era of stretch 4s. Gibson isn't a stretch 4 but is exceptional in many other ways -- offensive efficiency, defensively. The smarter move last summer would have been to trade Gorgui for a shorter-term contract and sign a stretch 4 like Illyasova.

Gorgui's confidence has nothing to do with him being unable to move laterally or show on the PnR. Thibs did nothing but praise G for is play last season, so I don't see how Thibs bears any responsibility for G's play now.

I am pretty sure that Gorgui's contract is untradeable on its own, and Thibs is too stubborn to admit he screwed up by using a first rounder to unload it (if that is enough?).

I agree that Gorgui's confidence has nothing to do with his slow lateral movement. In fact, Gorgui's main problem is the fact that he's slow overall. But lack of confidence and playing time have hurt his offensive game. He's always been a good mid-range shooter and good passer. He's slid back in both categories.

I agree that his contract is probably untradeable now. And there's no way I'd give up a first round pick just to get another team to take him. But I think he was tradeable for decent value last summer, coming off a pretty good season for him. Thibs' failure to deal him last summer was an error in judgment.

I'd like to see your post from last summer calling to trade Dieng for value.

Come on Monster, you're showing your smarmy side again. You won't find that quote because I never called for trading him last summer. If I had been PBO, failing to trade him would have been MY error of judgment. But guess what, I wasn't PBO; Thibs was. So that makes it Thibs' error. Whether I would have made the same mistake at the time doesn't change the analysis of whether it was a mistake. You do understand that, don't you?

First of all I had to look up "smarmy" to see the definition. Sorry if my post came on too strong.

That's fine if all you are saying that it was Thibs mistake. From my perspective the post read more like you knew what was to happen all along and Thibs is a moron for not seeing it despite it not being something you would have done however many months ago. I guess what I mean is that if it's such an egregious error since we are armchair GMs on this board it may be worth mentioning we also screwed up too. Both of us are big Dieng fans from the draft on. How many of us had basically no interest in dealing Dieng a few months ago? How many of us praised that contract when it was given? There are a lot of smart folks here including yourself.

Like you I agree I wouldn't compound the mistake of dealing Dieng by giving up a 1st round pick to get rid of him. Why?
I think he can absolutley still play at a rotation level for a good team. You mentioned his midrange shooting numbers slipping. He may have had a bad/brutal stretch recently but the percentages are as strong as ever. His overall numbers across the board are right in line with his career numbers. Some are a little better some a little less but he is still putting up solid numbers. He isn't showing well on the court but despite all that the productivity is there. So it's possible the guy ends up being a worthwhile player for this team (maybe adjusts to being a bench player) or another team buys low on him in a deal this summer where we get a different bad contract/s. One thing that would help is if Thibs was less ridged in his rotations and went with some matchups sometimes not playing Dieng at all when it doesn't make sense if teams go small.

Some of this isn't new info but thoughts?

Nothing in my post suggested I would have done anything different. You should know by now that I always point out when I disagreed at the time -- like drafting Bazz. Moreover, you should know that if I think Thibs' mistake was egregious or that he was a moron/idiot I'll say so. I simply said he made an error in judgment and that's what I believe it was. I've been a Gorgui fan since we drafted him, so I don't know what I would have done last summer after signing Gibson, Teague and Butler. I certainly wasn't calling on Thibs to trade him. But when you see how Gorgui has been used, his minutes reduced from 32 to 17 minutes per game and his stats down in every category, he's simply not worth the contract in my view. I had no idea last summer how Thibs the head coach was going to use the guy Thibs the PBO signed to that contract even before Gorgui became what Thibs called the team's most improved player.

I would love to see Thibs be less rigid in his rotations, which often put Gorgui in bad situations matched up against quicker players he can't guard. But I don't see Thibs changing the way he does things. I think he's proven that his sabbatical was just time off, not a time of revelation and change.

Let me be clear. I still like Gorgui. You'll notice that once he gets warmed up and in a rhythm he starts to play better so he benefits from extended minutes. I don't believe we lost to the Suns, Hawks and Memphis twice because of Gorgui. My problem with Gorgui is that he's too expensive now that we have Taj and how Thibs uses Gorgui. Moreover, Gorgui doesn't bring 3-point shooting or great rim protection off the bench -- two things we need. Gorgui's contract wasn't too problematic before, but now when you add Teague, Taj and Butler, in addition to the upcoming contracts of Wiggins and Towns, it becomes a problem.

As you noted, we agree that it would be foolish to give away good assets like a future 1st round pick to get someone to take Gorgui. I'll add that I woudn't trade Gorgui unless we get a decent asset or assets in return. I'd gladly swap Gorgui for a stretch 4 like Mirotic, but unfortunately the Pelicans probably wouldn't do that deal. I don't know what deals might be out there, but I think Thibs should explore them this summer. Otherwise, Thibs the head coach needs to rethink how he uses Gorgui -- giving Gorgui more minutes on a more consistent basis and adjusting his rotations. But I won't hold my breath waiting on Thibs to change anything he does.

It's a perpetual downward cycle for G. He plays better when he gets more minutes. But since he plays bad on short minutes he's given shorter minutes, which then tires out Taj and doesn't let G get into the game. Get rhythm.

I know I posted early in the year I would have kept G the starter, But that doesn't mean he gets more minutes then Taj. You could split them about evenly and finish the game with Taj.

What that could do is improve both games. G could get into the game with more minutes. Keep Taj fresh for the end of the game when games are decided.

WolvesFan21 wrote:It's a perpetual downward cycle for G. He plays better when he gets more minutes. But since he plays bad on short minutes he's given shorter minutes, which then tires out Taj and doesn't let G get into the game. Get rhythm.

I know I posted early in the year I would have kept G the starter, But that doesn't mean he gets more minutes then Taj. You could split them about evenly and finish the game with Taj.

What that could do is improve both games. G could get into the game with more minutes. Keep Taj fresh for the end of the game when games are decided.

Here's the problem. G's "better" only helps us play like a 30 win team because he and Towns are probably one of the worst defensive duos in the front court of all time. If his better had us at like 40 wins last year, sure play him more. You just can't give him more minutes to figure it out because those minutes make him better, but the team worse. He has to figure out this summer how to play 15 minutes without going a -15 every time otherwise he just needs to be outright replaced with Patton next year. We've just never been good with G playing starter minutes so to give him more minutes just to get him going doesn't make sense. He needs to figure out how to be effective off the bench or just stay there for the whole game.

khans2k5 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:It's a perpetual downward cycle for G. He plays better when he gets more minutes. But since he plays bad on short minutes he's given shorter minutes, which then tires out Taj and doesn't let G get into the game. Get rhythm.

I know I posted early in the year I would have kept G the starter, But that doesn't mean he gets more minutes then Taj. You could split them about evenly and finish the game with Taj.

What that could do is improve both games. G could get into the game with more minutes. Keep Taj fresh for the end of the game when games are decided.

Here's the problem. G's "better" only helps us play like a 30 win team because he and Towns are probably one of the worst defensive duos in the front court of all time. If his better had us at like 40 wins last year, sure play him more. You just can't give him more minutes to figure it out because those minutes make him better, but the team worse. He has to figure out this summer how to play 15 minutes without going a -15 every time otherwise he just needs to be outright replaced with Patton next year. We've just never been good with G playing starter minutes so to give him more minutes just to get him going doesn't make sense. He needs to figure out how to be effective off the bench or just stay there for the whole game.

Taj isn't a real great defender either. You can't be when the defense has been bottom 5 all season with Jimmy Butler. I think the difference between Taj and Dieng isn't as big as you think.

Yes Dieng is worse, I will concede that, but if you can get a better version of Dieng and Taj by closing in their minutes, then you have to do that. Taj even said a few times he is playing too many minutes.

The stubborn idiot in charge just refuses to listen.

khans2k5 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:It's a perpetual downward cycle for G. He plays better when he gets more minutes. But since he plays bad on short minutes he's given shorter minutes, which then tires out Taj and doesn't let G get into the game. Get rhythm.

I know I posted early in the year I would have kept G the starter, But that doesn't mean he gets more minutes then Taj. You could split them about evenly and finish the game with Taj.

What that could do is improve both games. G could get into the game with more minutes. Keep Taj fresh for the end of the game when games are decided.

Here's the problem. G's "better" only helps us play like a 30 win team because he and Towns are probably one of the worst defensive duos in the front court of all time. If his better had us at like 40 wins last year, sure play him more. You just can't give him more minutes to figure it out because those minutes make him better, but the team worse. He has to figure out this summer how to play 15 minutes without going a -15 every time otherwise he just needs to be outright replaced with Patton next year. We've just never been good with G playing starter minutes so to give him more minutes just to get him going doesn't make sense. He needs to figure out how to be effective off the bench or just stay there for the whole game.

Kahns -- I think Gorgui is better with more minutes than you're suggesting, but your overall point is a good one. Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything in Patton's G-League stats or the footage of him I"ve watch to suggest he'd be even remotely as good as Gorgui. And that's really frightening. So if someone takes Gorgui's minutes next season, I don't think it will be Patton. It will have to be someone not even on the team right now.

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:It's a perpetual downward cycle for G. He plays better when he gets more minutes. But since he plays bad on short minutes he's given shorter minutes, which then tires out Taj and doesn't let G get into the game. Get rhythm.

I know I posted early in the year I would have kept G the starter, But that doesn't mean he gets more minutes then Taj. You could split them about evenly and finish the game with Taj.

What that could do is improve both games. G could get into the game with more minutes. Keep Taj fresh for the end of the game when games are decided.

Here's the problem. G's "better" only helps us play like a 30 win team because he and Towns are probably one of the worst defensive duos in the front court of all time. If his better had us at like 40 wins last year, sure play him more. You just can't give him more minutes to figure it out because those minutes make him better, but the team worse. He has to figure out this summer how to play 15 minutes without going a -15 every time otherwise he just needs to be outright replaced with Patton next year. We've just never been good with G playing starter minutes so to give him more minutes just to get him going doesn't make sense. He needs to figure out how to be effective off the bench or just stay there for the whole game.

Kahns -- I think Gorgui is better with more minutes than you're suggesting, but your overall point is a good one. Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything in Patton's G-League stats or the footage of him I"ve watch to suggest he'd be even remotely as good as Gorgui. And that's really frightening. So if someone takes Gorgui's minutes next season, I don't think it will be Patton. It will have to be someone not even on the team right now.

Patton is a rim running PnR big. That's just not a skillset that's gonna shine in the G League so I don't take much stock out of his G league stats. There's a big difference between running PnR's with Tyus and Teague than G league guards. I'm not marking him down as a definite upgrade over G, but his skillset definitely fits what we currently have on the roster as something that could succeed and be useful.

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:It's a perpetual downward cycle for G. He plays better when he gets more minutes. But since he plays bad on short minutes he's given shorter minutes, which then tires out Taj and doesn't let G get into the game. Get rhythm.

I know I posted early in the year I would have kept G the starter, But that doesn't mean he gets more minutes then Taj. You could split them about evenly and finish the game with Taj.

What that could do is improve both games. G could get into the game with more minutes. Keep Taj fresh for the end of the game when games are decided.

Here's the problem. G's "better" only helps us play like a 30 win team because he and Towns are probably one of the worst defensive duos in the front court of all time. If his better had us at like 40 wins last year, sure play him more. You just can't give him more minutes to figure it out because those minutes make him better, but the team worse. He has to figure out this summer how to play 15 minutes without going a -15 every time otherwise he just needs to be outright replaced with Patton next year. We've just never been good with G playing starter minutes so to give him more minutes just to get him going doesn't make sense. He needs to figure out how to be effective off the bench or just stay there for the whole game.

Kahns -- I think Gorgui is better with more minutes than you're suggesting, but your overall point is a good one. Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything in Patton's G-League stats or the footage of him I"ve watch to suggest he'd be even remotely as good as Gorgui. And that's really frightening. So if someone takes Gorgui's minutes next season, I don't think it will be Patton. It will have to be someone not even on the team right now.

Patton is a rim running PnR big. That's just not a skillset that's gonna shine in the G League so I don't take much stock out of his G league stats. There's a big difference between running PnR's with Tyus and Teague than G league guards. I'm not marking him down as a definite upgrade over G, but his skillset definitely fits what we currently have on the roster as something that could succeed and be useful.

I agree with your characterization of Patton as a rim-running PnR big. So you have a good point about Patton's potential fit in Thibs' offense. But I'm highly skeptical of what we have in Patton overall and I really hope I'm wrong.

WolvesFan21 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:It's a perpetual downward cycle for G. He plays better when he gets more minutes. But since he plays bad on short minutes he's given shorter minutes, which then tires out Taj and doesn't let G get into the game. Get rhythm.

I know I posted early in the year I would have kept G the starter, But that doesn't mean he gets more minutes then Taj. You could split them about evenly and finish the game with Taj.

What that could do is improve both games. G could get into the game with more minutes. Keep Taj fresh for the end of the game when games are decided.

Here's the problem. G's "better" only helps us play like a 30 win team because he and Towns are probably one of the worst defensive duos in the front court of all time. If his better had us at like 40 wins last year, sure play him more. You just can't give him more minutes to figure it out because those minutes make him better, but the team worse. He has to figure out this summer how to play 15 minutes without going a -15 every time otherwise he just needs to be outright replaced with Patton next year. We've just never been good with G playing starter minutes so to give him more minutes just to get him going doesn't make sense. He needs to figure out how to be effective off the bench or just stay there for the whole game.

Taj isn't a real great defender either. You can't be when the defense has been bottom 5 all season with Jimmy Butler. I think the difference between Taj and Dieng isn't as big as you think.

Yes Dieng is worse, I will concede that, but if you can get a better version of Dieng and Taj by closing in their minutes, then you have to do that. Taj even said a few times he is playing too many minutes.

The stubborn idiot in charge just refuses to listen.

While I may have agreed with you before this season, having watched Gibson with my own eyes all year long, it's not even close. Gibson isn't a great defender, but he's a good one. And he is way more capable of switching onto guards and wings than Dieng, a really important skill in today's NBA. He also has one hell of a low post game - one of the most efficient in the NBA - which is crazy because he didn't have any of that early in his career. Gorgui gets the ball down low and ends up pump faking his way into a travel or getting tipped over by the slightest of contact.

By the way, speaking of Gorgui, Gibson, and defense, the next time we draft a big man, can we please, please, please test them for some kind of core/trunk strength? Between Gorgui, KAT, and Patton, we have drafted three bigs that have a hell of a tough time holding their ground in the paint. Gibson isn't that big or strong of a player by NBA big man standards, but he makes these three guys look like a bunch a pansies the way he squares his body and holds his ground.