thedoper wrote:How Bazz gets so much more flack than Gorgui around here is silly too me. G gets more playing time, is more of a negative impact statistically because of his minutes, and makes it impossible for us to carry a legit 6th man on this roster because of his salary. G was my greatest hope for an improved bench and many nights been the worst player in the floor. So horrible.
There are many stats available that indicate that Dieng is offering a lot more than Muhammad on the court.
Dieng has struggled with fewer minutes... but not as bad as Muhammad. For example... he has +.5 OBPM with a -1.6DPM and a 114ORtg and 111DRTG. His PER is 15.6. (basketballreference).
Muhammad is -2.5 OBPM and -3.4 DPBM with a 103 OTRG and 114 DTRG. His PER is 9.9.
[Note: By the way, Wiggins PER was at 14.8 before tonight. He is -1.7 OBPM and -1.6 DBPM. But for the first time, he has a positive VORP -- +0.1. YES!!!!!!!]
I didn't say Muhammad had better stats than G. I said Gs bad stats have a greater impact on the team because he gets more minutes than Bazz. Thanks for your copy and pasting though.
Not sure what you're trying to do here.
Muhammad gets more flack because he's played like one of the worst players in the league. Dieng is playing like a slightly above average bench guy on a bit above average team... and has actually made contributions to win games.
We can parse out specific percentages for players responsibilities based on mpg and salaries in some convoluted spreadsheet if you want. Or, continue to simply call out Muhammad for playing horrible basketball on both ends of the court, regardless of playing time or salary.
Psssst... there's a reason his minutes are down. And it might have something to do with his lack of on-court success.
We all can note that Aaron Brooks has horrible stats, and we don't spend much time talking about it because he hardly plays. Bazz has horrible stats, Gorgui has horrible stats. Bazz gets talked about the most out of that group. But Gorgui has the most significant role. Bad individual stats have a greater impact on the team based on a players role and minutes played.I am still surprised that Gorgui gets to skate here when his stats have been awful yet another player who's stats have been awful takes up so much time and disdain of people here. Pretty simple point. It doesn't take a genius to see that Bazz has not been playing well. But G has likewise been horrible with an even greater responsibility. This is a very simple point that doesn't require a spreadsheet.
thedoper wrote:How Bazz gets so much more flack than Gorgui around here is silly too me. G gets more playing time, is more of a negative impact statistically because of his minutes, and makes it impossible for us to carry a legit 6th man on this roster because of his salary. G was my greatest hope for an improved bench and many nights been the worst player in the floor. So horrible.
There are many stats available that indicate that Dieng is offering a lot more than Muhammad on the court.
Dieng has struggled with fewer minutes... but not as bad as Muhammad. For example... he has +.5 OBPM with a -1.6DPM and a 114ORtg and 111DRTG. His PER is 15.6. (basketballreference).
Muhammad is -2.5 OBPM and -3.4 DPBM with a 103 OTRG and 114 DTRG. His PER is 9.9.
[Note: By the way, Wiggins PER was at 14.8 before tonight. He is -1.7 OBPM and -1.6 DBPM. But for the first time, he has a positive VORP -- +0.1. YES!!!!!!!]
I didn't say Muhammad had better stats than G. I said Gs bad stats have a greater impact on the team because he gets more minutes than Bazz. Thanks for your copy and pasting though.
Not sure what you're trying to do here.
Muhammad gets more flack because he's played like one of the worst players in the league. Dieng is playing like a slightly above average bench guy on a bit above average team... and has actually made contributions to win games.
We can parse out specific percentages for players responsibilities based on mpg and salaries in some convoluted spreadsheet if you want. Or, continue to simply call out Muhammad for playing horrible basketball on both ends of the court, regardless of playing time or salary.
Psssst... there's a reason his minutes are down. And it might have something to do with his lack of on-court success.
We all can note that Aaron Brooks has horrible stats, and we don't spend much time talking about it because he hardly plays. Bazz has horrible stats, Gorgui has horrible stats. Bazz gets talked about the most out of that group. But Gorgui has the most significant role. Bad individual stats have a greater impact on the team based on a players role and minutes played.I am still surprised that Gorgui gets to skate here when his stats have been awful yet another player who's stats have been awful takes up so much time and disdain of people here. Pretty simple point. It doesn't take a genius to see that Bazz has not been playing well. But G has likewise been horrible with an even greater responsibility. This is a very simple point that doesn't require a spreadsheet.
1. Their "horrible" stats and play are not comparable. One is measurably/tangibly much much worse than the other across the board.
2. Both guys are supposed to be key rotation guys off the bench. One has played "well enough" to get minutes. Another has played so poorly he's playing himself out of the rotation.
thedoper wrote:How Bazz gets so much more flack than Gorgui around here is silly too me. G gets more playing time, is more of a negative impact statistically because of his minutes, and makes it impossible for us to carry a legit 6th man on this roster because of his salary. G was my greatest hope for an improved bench and many nights been the worst player in the floor. So horrible.
There are many stats available that indicate that Dieng is offering a lot more than Muhammad on the court.
Dieng has struggled with fewer minutes... but not as bad as Muhammad. For example... he has +.5 OBPM with a -1.6DPM and a 114ORtg and 111DRTG. His PER is 15.6. (basketballreference).
Muhammad is -2.5 OBPM and -3.4 DPBM with a 103 OTRG and 114 DTRG. His PER is 9.9.
[Note: By the way, Wiggins PER was at 14.8 before tonight. He is -1.7 OBPM and -1.6 DBPM. But for the first time, he has a positive VORP -- +0.1. YES!!!!!!!]
I didn't say Muhammad had better stats than G. I said Gs bad stats have a greater impact on the team because he gets more minutes than Bazz. Thanks for your copy and pasting though.
Not sure what you're trying to do here.
Muhammad gets more flack because he's played like one of the worst players in the league. Dieng is playing like a slightly above average bench guy on a bit above average team... and has actually made contributions to win games.
We can parse out specific percentages for players responsibilities based on mpg and salaries in some convoluted spreadsheet if you want. Or, continue to simply call out Muhammad for playing horrible basketball on both ends of the court, regardless of playing time or salary.
Psssst... there's a reason his minutes are down. And it might have something to do with his lack of on-court success.
We all can note that Aaron Brooks has horrible stats, and we don't spend much time talking about it because he hardly plays. Bazz has horrible stats, Gorgui has horrible stats. Bazz gets talked about the most out of that group. But Gorgui has the most significant role. Bad individual stats have a greater impact on the team based on a players role and minutes played.I am still surprised that Gorgui gets to skate here when his stats have been awful yet another player who's stats have been awful takes up so much time and disdain of people here. Pretty simple point. It doesn't take a genius to see that Bazz has not been playing well. But G has likewise been horrible with an even greater responsibility. This is a very simple point that doesn't require a spreadsheet.
1. Their "horrible" stats and play are not comparable. One is measurably/tangibly much much worse than the other across the board.
2. Both guys are supposed to be key rotation guys off the bench. One has played "well enough" to get minutes. Another has played so poorly he's playing himself out of the rotation.
One was supposed to be our legitimate 6th man and has been horrible. They are comparable because of the necessity of role. The only reason G hasn't played himself out of the lineup is because his salary necessitates his play as the only supposedly legit available big off the bench. It's a travesty and the biggest problem with this team right now.
Maybe Doper just hasn't seen Dieng play before? His stats and statistical impact on the floor are extremely comparable to last season.
Not great. Not terrible or horrible or a travesty.
As for Muhammad... "Teams have outscored the Wolves at a rate of 20.9 points per 100 possessions in 247 minutes, one of the worst of any rotation player in the NBA."
Keep railing on and on and on about how terrible Dieng is or how comparable it is to Crawford... just know you'll find minimal statistical evidence to support your take.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Maybe Doper just hasn't seen Dieng play before? His stats and statistical impact on the floor are extremely comparable to last season.
Not great. Not terrible or horrible or a travesty.
As for Muhammad... "Teams have outscored the Wolves at a rate of 20.9 points per 100 possessions in 247 minutes, one of the worst of any rotation player in the NBA."
Keep railing on and on and on about how terrible Dieng is or how comparable it is to Crawford... just know you'll find minimal statistical evidence to support your take.
His net rating shows he has been an extremely negative player. Travesty.
On/off +/- per 100 possessions from BBall reference is definitely in the same neighborhood as Crawford.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2018.html
The reason we are relying on Crawford and Bazz right now is because G's salary forced our hand that way. It's such a shame we aren't getting more from our supposedly premiere bench player. He's bringing this team down with his awful play.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Maybe Doper just hasn't seen Dieng play before? His stats and statistical impact on the floor are extremely comparable to last season.
Not great. Not terrible or horrible or a travesty.
As for Muhammad... "Teams have outscored the Wolves at a rate of 20.9 points per 100 possessions in 247 minutes, one of the worst of any rotation player in the NBA."
Keep railing on and on and on about how terrible Dieng is or how comparable it is to Crawford... just know you'll find minimal statistical evidence to support your take.
His net rating shows he has been an extremely negative player. Travesty.
On/off +/- per 100 possessions from BBall reference is definitely in the same neighborhood as Crawford.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2018.html
The reason we are relying on Crawford and Bazz right now is because G's salary forced our hand that way. It's such a shame we aren't getting more from our supposedly premiere bench player. He's bringing this team down with his awful play.
Doper one significant reason Dieng gets the benefit of the doubt is every year he has played in the league he has been an effective player and advanced stats for him the last couple years in particular have been quite positive. Bazz hasn't done enough to be given the benefit of the doubt. Sure Dieng is getting paid a lot of money and hasn't played well overall but I think most people assume he will trend more towards being a reasonably effective player that he has been for years. Bazz probably won't stay playing this bad but the upside for him is being a bit better than the vet min contract he signed. Compare the 2 last night. Dieng had 5 rebounds and 2 assists and zero turnovers in 15 mins. Bazz has 1 rebound and 1 turnover in 4 minutes. People are calling for MGH to play and at this point signing and playing Brandon Rush looks like near a savior compared to the thought of Bazz going out there. Nobody is clamoring for Cole Aldrich to get out there instead of Dieng because I think we all know who the better player is regardless of salary. Heck Dieng is even shooting the 3 better than Bazz right now. Lol
Ironically one of the reasons why the bench is not effective is because Thibs priorized some youth at the back end of the roster and on the bench. He could have easily signed some more vet players but instead he held out for Bazz which is looking terrible right now. They are probably gonna keep playing him a while longer because they went out of their way to get him here and he chose to come back. At some point something has to give though. Either he plays to some level of effectiveness or they are gonna have to play or even sign someone else. MGH is sitting there where they could have signed a vet guy. Tyus is probably better than Brooks but so many people thought Brooks was gonna get minutes over Tyus.
AbeVigodaLive wrote:Maybe Doper just hasn't seen Dieng play before? His stats and statistical impact on the floor are extremely comparable to last season.
Not great. Not terrible or horrible or a travesty.
As for Muhammad... "Teams have outscored the Wolves at a rate of 20.9 points per 100 possessions in 247 minutes, one of the worst of any rotation player in the NBA."
Keep railing on and on and on about how terrible Dieng is or how comparable it is to Crawford... just know you'll find minimal statistical evidence to support your take.
His net rating shows he has been an extremely negative player. Travesty.
On/off +/- per 100 possessions from BBall reference is definitely in the same neighborhood as Crawford.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2018.html
The reason we are relying on Crawford and Bazz right now is because G's salary forced our hand that way. It's such a shame we aren't getting more from our supposedly premiere bench player. He's bringing this team down with his awful play.
Doper one significant reason Dieng gets the benefit of the doubt is every year he has played in the league he has been an effective player and advanced stats for him the last couple years in particular have been quite positive. Bazz hasn't done enough to be given the benefit of the doubt. Sure Dieng is getting paid a lot of money and hasn't played well overall but I think most people assume he will trend more towards being a reasonably effective player that he has been for years. Bazz probably won't stay playing this bad but the upside for him is being a bit better than the vet min contract he signed. Compare the 2 last night. Dieng had 5 rebounds and 2 assists and zero turnovers in 15 mins. Bazz has 1 rebound and 1 turnover in 4 minutes. People are calling for MGH to play and at this point signing and playing Brandon Rush looks like near a savior compared to the thought of Bazz going out there. Nobody is clamoring for Cole Aldrich to get out there instead of Dieng because I think we all know who the better player is regardless of salary. Heck Dieng is even shooting the 3 better than Bazz right now. Lol
Ironically one of the reasons why the bench is not effective is because Thibs priorized some youth at the back end of the roster and on the bench. He could have easily signed some more vet players but instead he held out for Bazz which is looking terrible right now. They are probably gonna keep playing him a while longer because they went out of their way to get him here and he chose to come back. At some point something has to give though. Either he plays to some level of effectiveness or they are gonna have to play or even sign someone else. MGH is sitting there where they could have signed a vet guy. Tyus is probably better than Brooks but so many people thought Brooks was gonna get minutes over Tyus.
I think your insight is on point. I look at it at a more basic level at this point. We all agree our bench is horrible. Going into the season the optimist (me being one of them) thought that by having Dieng as a capable NBA player back there we would see improvements. His salary left us with hardly any money to add guys 9-10 (Crawford and Bazz). Could we have done better than Bazz with that 10 spot? Maybe, but more importantly if the 10mpg 10th man is taking up a large portion of conversation, then I think we're missing the bigger picture of what is wrong with this team and this bench. Coincidentally, Dieng has been in the conversation for the least effective impact player (along with guys 9-10) on the team and is anchoring this God awful bench. I think this cumulative situation makes Dieng all the more disappointing to me. He was supposed to be elevating our 2nd unit but is having the opposite effect at present. I do give him the benefit of the doubt too in that I think there is still talent there. But his play and his salary's effect of blocking us from getting more talent is part of the problem so far.
