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Re: Around the NBA (non-Wolves talk)
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:49 am
by Monster
longstrangetrip wrote:I clearly hear the majority view here, and I wish I felt the same way...it's a much healthier way for a fan to feel. But I come down on Lip's side...an 8th seed is not optimal for this team. It's not the .5% chance of a top 3 pick that sways my opinion. It's these factors:
1) My G2 that Thibs is on the hot seat if the team doesn't make the playoffs, and conversely, that he is certain to stay if they do. A new coach is much more important to the future of this team (and to my viewing enjoyment) than playoff experience, especially against a team that destroyed us 4 times this year (3 times by 18 points)
2) The avoidance of a 4-game sweep with all losses double digit. This Thibs defense has proven over and over again that it simply can't defend the 3-point shot, and I would prefer avoiding the agony of watching 150 wide-open threes over the course of a series.
3) The avoidance of a negative experience for our young guys. Yes, playoff experience can be good for a young team, but not if the experience is a complete disaster. And come on, guys...you know that this would be a complete disaster.
4) The 14th pick in the draft. I hear Abe's point that we fans are tired of hoping draft picks will turn this team around. But wouldn't you rather have Miles Bridges (or the available wing of your choice) backing up our wings over Jamal Crawford?
I will be actively cheering for the Heat to beat the crap out of OkC tomorrow night, because I would very much enjoy a playoff series against Portland or Utah. But if OkC wins, I don't want the Wolves to beat Denver in the finale and end up playing the Rockets. The four points I lay out above are just too persuasive to me.
I'd be interested if the Rockets basically whooping our butts may have Thibs taking a harder look at everything he does. I know you and some other people are done with him but I don't see him going anywhere and I've seen him make some changes from his time in Chicago. There obviously is some things he hasn't changed but maybe a brutal sweep makes him consider doing something else new different. The guy is stubborn but competitive. It's not much to hope for but yeah.
Re: Around the NBA (non-Wolves talk)
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:57 am
by AbeVigodaLive
monsterpile wrote:longstrangetrip wrote:I clearly hear the majority view here, and I wish I felt the same way...it's a much healthier way for a fan to feel. But I come down on Lip's side...an 8th seed is not optimal for this team. It's not the .5% chance of a top 3 pick that sways my opinion. It's these factors:
1) My G2 that Thibs is on the hot seat if the team doesn't make the playoffs, and conversely, that he is certain to stay if they do. A new coach is much more important to the future of this team (and to my viewing enjoyment) than playoff experience, especially against a team that destroyed us 4 times this year (3 times by 18 points)
2) The avoidance of a 4-game sweep with all losses double digit. This Thibs defense has proven over and over again that it simply can't defend the 3-point shot, and I would prefer avoiding the agony of watching 150 wide-open threes over the course of a series.
3) The avoidance of a negative experience for our young guys. Yes, playoff experience can be good for a young team, but not if the experience is a complete disaster. And come on, guys...you know that this would be a complete disaster.
4) The 14th pick in the draft. I hear Abe's point that we fans are tired of hoping draft picks will turn this team around. But wouldn't you rather have Miles Bridges (or the available wing of your choice) backing up our wings over Jamal Crawford?
I will be actively cheering for the Heat to beat the crap out of OkC tomorrow night, because I would very much enjoy a playoff series against Portland or Utah. But if OkC wins, I don't want the Wolves to beat Denver in the finale and end up playing the Rockets. The four points I lay out above are just too persuasive to me.
.
Playoffs or not... does anybody really believe Thibs isn't coming back?
Firing him after the first winning season in 13 years doesn't seem like a Taylor move. Neither does eating $24M or whatever it is.
Most have reservations with Thibs... to varying degrees. But we might as well plan for hoping him to fail NEXT year because that's going to be when he really starts feeling the heat. If the Wolves miss the playoffs this season, I think Wiggins takes a lot more heat than Thibs does... whether that should be the case can be debated. But usually in these situations, there's one person who becomes the fall guy. And I think with Wiggins contract staring at us... and Wiggins already showing up on "Most Disappointing Player" lists... he gets the heat first.
Next season... it's Thibs turn. Then again... coaches are easier to fire than players... even with $24M on the books.
As for your hypothetical drafted wing vs. Crawford angle. It's quite the staged one. Isn't it just as likely the team drafts another Justin Patton or Shabazz Muhammad or William Avery as it is a quality wing (and this part is important) that Thibs thinks deserves run over a guy like Jamal Crawford?
And a negative experience for the players? If they're THAT soft... that watching the playoffs as one of the relatively few teams who miss out is better than playing in a tournament that many of the best players play in every single year... it's better to learn about it now and start planning another rebuild. If they're THAT type of competitor... get rid of them. Now. Even if for 8 cents on the dollar. Seriously.
Re: Around the NBA (non-Wolves talk)
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:14 am
by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
Thibs is 100% coming back so make your preference based on that. Glen is not about to eat 24 million to fire a guy who had the first winning season in forever and who's best player went down during the toughest stretch of the year. That's an easy pitch for Thibs to keep his job. Also Glenn would have to pay a new coach and GM. That's just too much money for a team that took a step forward this year. We've improved by 14 wins this year so far. That almost matches our win total several years during the last decade. That's a lot in just one offseason. Imagine what it will be next year with another offseason under our belt to build out our depth.
Re: Around the NBA (non-Wolves talk)
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:17 am
by Big O [enjin:13874644]
If Denver beats Portland which is possible given the next two are meaningless for Portland the Wolves Nuggets game decides who is in and who is out of the playoffs. My guess is that if we lose an important game like that, at home, to an inferior team, Glen eats the paltry $24MM and finds a new coach. Think about it, $24MM is a lot of money but when you are old as dirt, filthy rich, and your team just finished out of the lottery for the 15th year in a row, you'd be pissed enough to can the blowhard whom you blame.
Re: Around the NBA (non-Wolves talk)
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:28 am
by rapsuperstar31
We are never satisfied with our coach, and basically every year the last 15 years the narrative has been the coach needs to go. Thibs probably wasn't the right choice, at least having as much power as he does. I think we would be seeing similar results with another coach, minus the Butler trade and the best free agent signing Summer in Woves history. Right now we would be having a Thibs better fire Van Gundy discussion had we gone that route. I am not even remotely considering getting rid of Thibs until Jimmy is either extended or traded for valuable pieces. You fire Thibs and Jimmy walks period.
Re: Around the NBA (non-Wolves talk)
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:29 am
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
Big O wrote:If Denver beats Portland which is possible given the next two are meaningless for Portland the Wolves Nuggets game decides who is in and who is out of the playoffs. My guess is that if we lose an important game like that, at home, to an inferior team, Glen eats the paltry $24MM and finds a new coach. Think about it, $24MM is a lot of money but when you are old as dirt, filthy rich, and your team just finished out of the lottery for the 15th year in a row, you'd be pissed enough to can the blowhard whom you blame.
I partially agree with you, O. Fans should not underestimate how much Glen wants to win, and how enormously dissatified he is with Thibs right now...both his demeanor and his performance. Sure, we have won several more games this year, but Glen expected that after agreeing to spend millions on Butler, Teague and Gibson. I don't think he even considered the possibility of not making the playoffs this year, and that's why I think the $24 mill won't be the deciding factor here.
I don't agree with your Portland assessment though...their next two are not meaningless. If Utah wins out (and they just might) they will pass Portland for the third seed. And I think the Wolves/Denver game will decide who makes the playoffs regardless of how the Denver/Portland game ends up.
Re: Around the NBA (non-Wolves talk)
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:32 am
by AbeVigodaLive
longstrangetrip wrote:Big O wrote:If Denver beats Portland which is possible given the next two are meaningless for Portland the Wolves Nuggets game decides who is in and who is out of the playoffs. My guess is that if we lose an important game like that, at home, to an inferior team, Glen eats the paltry $24MM and finds a new coach. Think about it, $24MM is a lot of money but when you are old as dirt, filthy rich, and your team just finished out of the lottery for the 15th year in a row, you'd be pissed enough to can the blowhard whom you blame.
I partially agree with you, O. Fans should not underestimate how much Glen wants to win, and how enormously dissatified he is with Thibs right now...both his demeanor and his performance. Sure, we have won several more games this year, but Glen expected that after agreeing to spend millions on Butler, Teague and Gibson. I don't think he even considered the possibility of not making the playoffs this year, and that's why I think the $24 mill won't be the deciding factor here.
I don't agree with your Portland assessment though...their next two are not meaningless. If Utah wins out (and they just might) they will pass Portland for the third seed. And I think the Wolves/Denver game will decide who makes the playoffs regardless of how the Denver/Portland game ends up.
To be fair... does it really make a difference if Portland is #3 or #4. They still have homecourt... and it's not like they have much say in who they'll be playing. With all the tied teams, it could be NOP, OKC or SA, right?
They really have very little at stake win or lose beyond momentum... which can be meaningless once the playoffs hit.
Re: Around the NBA (non-Wolves talk)
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:40 am
by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
Big O wrote:If Denver beats Portland which is possible given the next two are meaningless for Portland the Wolves Nuggets game decides who is in and who is out of the playoffs. My guess is that if we lose an important game like that, at home, to an inferior team, Glen eats the paltry $24MM and finds a new coach. Think about it, $24MM is a lot of money but when you are old as dirt, filthy rich, and your team just finished out of the lottery for the 15th year in a row, you'd be pissed enough to can the blowhard whom you blame.
I could see Glen pulling the dual role from Thibs as punishment for a bad year, but I just don't see any scenario he completely dumps Thibs. Glen just dumped a bunch of his own money in the stadium. He's not eating 24 million to fire a winning coach given our team history and then have to pay 2 new guys another chunk of change. And yes Glen has plenty of money, but he didn't get that money by blowing large chunks of money on sunk costs. It would have taken a complete disaster to get that 24 million to be burned and that just didn't happen.
Re: Around the NBA (non-Wolves talk)
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:42 am
by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
AbeVigodaLive wrote:longstrangetrip wrote:Big O wrote:If Denver beats Portland which is possible given the next two are meaningless for Portland the Wolves Nuggets game decides who is in and who is out of the playoffs. My guess is that if we lose an important game like that, at home, to an inferior team, Glen eats the paltry $24MM and finds a new coach. Think about it, $24MM is a lot of money but when you are old as dirt, filthy rich, and your team just finished out of the lottery for the 15th year in a row, you'd be pissed enough to can the blowhard whom you blame.
I partially agree with you, O. Fans should not underestimate how much Glen wants to win, and how enormously dissatified he is with Thibs right now...both his demeanor and his performance. Sure, we have won several more games this year, but Glen expected that after agreeing to spend millions on Butler, Teague and Gibson. I don't think he even considered the possibility of not making the playoffs this year, and that's why I think the $24 mill won't be the deciding factor here.
I don't agree with your Portland assessment though...their next two are not meaningless. If Utah wins out (and they just might) they will pass Portland for the third seed. And I think the Wolves/Denver game will decide who makes the playoffs regardless of how the Denver/Portland game ends up.
To be fair... does it really make a difference if Portland is #3 or #4. They still have homecourt... and it's not like they have much say in who they'll be playing. With all the tied teams, it could be NOP, OKC or SA, right?
They really have very little at stake win or lose beyond momentum... which can be meaningless once the playoffs hit.
That 3 might get a Warriors team without Steph in the second round where the 4 gets the Rockets. 3 v 4 absolutely is a big deal.
Re: Around the NBA (non-Wolves talk)
Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:44 am
by Monster
If Glen fired Thibs as coach and hired a new GM and coach then...you could make an argument that maybe the upside of that move is more getting a new GM than a new coach. Why? None of the coaches really stand out to me. Meanwhile you have GMs like Sam Heinke or David Griffin with some real positives on their resume. Not perfect but I would think they would be viewed as guys that would be top candidates a few places. Would those guys hire the right coach or make the right moves? Idk. Also it's worth remembering Layden was a boring but well regarded canidate at the time we added him as the GM with Thibs. Some people didn't like adding him hut he wasn't just some out of the blue guy nobody was considering.
To me one thing this organization need to do is find an assistant GM and assistant coach that helps balance both guys out. And assistant GM that is more of a people person for both guys and and an assistant coach that influences offense or defense in some way. Maybe their are guys already either he organization that will emerge and have bigger roles and help fill in these holes. It's possible remember we are less than 2 years into this thing and they cleaned out a lot of folks.