OT - Making Sense of Tragedy

[mrhockey89]

I think the more major stark racial disparity in sentencing is white collar sentencing vs street crime. This is inherently an issue and judges and lawmakers have been trying to make excuses for it for a long time.

This is once again an apples to oranges comparison. The correct question IMO is if sentencing of white and non-white white-collar crimes is the same, and again white and non-white street crime. If we look at the reporting the past week in regards to the looting, vandalism, and arson you'll see a lot of people suggesting that because it's just property and is replaceable that means it's not as bad as a violent crime. If that logic applies to those situations should it not also apply to white-collar crime?

The question/problem isn't if these different crimes are inequitably written, they're not due to their being written without concern for the race of the criminal. The question is are they enforced/applied equally across race, religion, sexuality, or any other differences. In other words, is justice blind?

Agreed 100%

[mrhockey89]

All of that also just excuses the fact that blacks are having twice the amount of police encounters as whites despite being a fraction of the population. Why must the outcome be a result of racism and not cultural dynamics? Accountability is getting lost here in pursuit of another narrative.

Also agreed 100% here. We cannot forget the variables that come into play when throwing out statistics for arrest numbers, incarceration rates, etc. Not to straddle the line of what is politically correct in 2020 to talk about again, but if you go to two apartment complexes with the same number of units, one in Eden Prairie and one in North Minneapolis, which do you think will have more monthly police calls? This isn't to say that living in urban environments aren't a factor, or that income isn't a factor, but it's also not a complete coincidence. I don't even have to look at the numbers to know the answer here and neither does anyone else in society.

There are tons of great people in every race and tons of bad people in every race. If there's a white hacker or extremist that's causing riots or emptying people's bank accounts, I want them arrested just as much. If there's a black coworker that is a good person and a good worker, I want to see them promoted and good things to happen to them. My brother is very much a car person and drove across Oklahoma to pick up some car part he bought years ago. When stopping at a gas station in a rural area, the store owner asked him if he's part of the Klan and that they were having a meeting down the road. My brother took that as a sign to quickly get out of town. I'm all for the FBI monitoring those groups and cracking down hard when they find something/anything to do so.

85 shootings last weekend in Chicago, 24 of which resulted in deaths, 1 of which was a 5 year old child, and virtually all in black neighborhoods. Where is BLM for that? Why no outrage? Meanwhile, let's get rid of a police force for doing a fraction of that damage over an entire year.

So again, I believe in the overall intention, but I think there is a lot more ignorance than what's in our 'system'.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

All of that also just excuses the fact that blacks are having twice the amount of police encounters as whites despite being a fraction of the population. Why must the outcome be a result of racism and not cultural dynamics? Accountability is getting lost here in pursuit of another narrative.

I think accountability is a huge part of this discussion on both sides of the issue. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? Its a great question. The most likely answer is that they are the target of more policing.

I truly believe we're not too far off of an agreement, but that bolded sentence is a dangerous assumption that so far isn't substantiated. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? They're committing more crimes. That's the logical answer here that is void of any bias.

The bigger and more problematic issues are rooted in the culture, in my opinion. Where that stems from is up for debate, but oppression and police brutality pale in comparison to single-parent homes, gang violence, drug involvement, and educational failure when it comes to discussing why our black communities aren't growing like all races in America wants them to. I feel confident in saying that if those matters were improved considerably, then we'd see that subset of a demographic thrive.

https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/

You may not think Stanford is a great source of data but their study of 100million police stops shows implicit bias in regards to people of color. I think the assumption that blacks are more apt to be engaged in criminal activity is much more dangerous and is likely part of the issue why there is more engagement between people of color and police. I do think you present some compelling ways for the improvement of outcomes for people of color (better education, more opportunity for stable family units). I just believe that the dominant culture should be taking on a good deal of the responsibility in helping those communities address those issues, since the dominant culture played such a huge role in creating the dynamics we have now. I do agree with Q that police reform or one issue isnt going to magically solve everything. I think its about attitude. I hope that anyone who has had privilege and opportunity in their life should be grateful for that and be looking around to examine what they can do to create those opportunities for others, especially when a lack of opportunity could exist for a reason as silly as what someone looks like.

There has been decades of affirmative action, an EEOC, corporate diversity training, and tons of non-profits and scholarship money dedicated to people of color. Continuing to hit whites over the head with the cudgel of racism just isn't a very effective strategy in my opinion in light of how much effort, legislation, and money has been thrown at this problem.

By the way, one thing that has dominated inner cities is democratic governance. Now I'm not suggesting republicans would do any better, but are these folks looking in the mirror at all and asking what they could do better? They are the ones that negotiate the union contracts that protect cops from the type of accountability that could have prevented this tragedy. And let's not even start with public school unions....

I disagree. Blacks have been trending up in attaining university degrees and general socioeconomic status as a direct result from legislation and that type of social action. We are still a few generations removed from when it was legal for certain universities to not allow minority students to even attend l, as well as K-12 segregation. Comprehensive change on something that was so grossly negligent takes time. Without strong legislation including affirmative action it would be even worse if the population dynamics continued on the same trajectory. Im not a democrat either.
But calling an legislation correcting blatant negligence "a cudgel" is disingenuous to how great whites still have it in the US. There is literally no burden that whites have had to face in terms of their own economic growth, health outcomes, or access to education since this type of legislation has come around. If anything the diversity has been good for whites in all those areas.

My point isn't that the past legislation and efforts were all for naught. My point is that the very progress you cite is reason to believe that the vast majority of Americans are not racist and believe in equal opportunity and justice. I believe that is the case while also acknowledging that a racist past has laid the groundwork for many of the problems we see today.

Continuing to tell whites they've had it easy, they are privileged, that they are complicit in systemic racism, etc. doesn't yield much benefit. Making people feel guilty because of the color of their skin isn't a successful strategy for change.

I'd like to hear actionable ideas from you on what changes you think should happen to help provide African Americans more opportunities and upward mobility.

[Monster]

All of that also just excuses the fact that blacks are having twice the amount of police encounters as whites despite being a fraction of the population. Why must the outcome be a result of racism and not cultural dynamics? Accountability is getting lost here in pursuit of another narrative.

I think accountability is a huge part of this discussion on both sides of the issue. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? Its a great question. The most likely answer is that they are the target of more policing.

I truly believe we're not too far off of an agreement, but that bolded sentence is a dangerous assumption that so far isn't substantiated. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? They're committing more crimes. That's the logical answer here that is void of any bias.

The bigger and more problematic issues are rooted in the culture, in my opinion. Where that stems from is up for debate, but oppression and police brutality pale in comparison to single-parent homes, gang violence, drug involvement, and educational failure when it comes to discussing why our black communities aren't growing like all races in America wants them to. I feel confident in saying that if those matters were improved considerably, then we'd see that subset of a demographic thrive.

https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/

You may not think Stanford is a great source of data but their study of 100million police stops shows implicit bias in regards to people of color. I think the assumption that blacks are more apt to be engaged in criminal activity is much more dangerous and is likely part of the issue why there is more engagement between people of color and police. I do think you present some compelling ways for the improvement of outcomes for people of color (better education, more opportunity for stable family units). I just believe that the dominant culture should be taking on a good deal of the responsibility in helping those communities address those issues, since the dominant culture played such a huge role in creating the dynamics we have now. I do agree with Q that police reform or one issue isnt going to magically solve everything. I think its about attitude. I hope that anyone who has had privilege and opportunity in their life should be grateful for that and be looking around to examine what they can do to create those opportunities for others, especially when a lack of opportunity could exist for a reason as silly as what someone looks like.

There has been decades of affirmative action, an EEOC, corporate diversity training, and tons of non-profits and scholarship money dedicated to people of color. Continuing to hit whites over the head with the cudgel of racism just isn't a very effective strategy in my opinion in light of how much effort, legislation, and money has been thrown at this problem.

By the way, one thing that has dominated inner cities is democratic governance. Now I'm not suggesting republicans would do any better, but are these folks looking in the mirror at all and asking what they could do better? They are the ones that negotiate the union contracts that protect cops from the type of accountability that could have prevented this tragedy. And let's not even start with public school unions....

I disagree. Blacks have been trending up in attaining university degrees and general socioeconomic status as a direct result from legislation and that type of social action. We are still a few generations removed from when it was legal for certain universities to not allow minority students to even attend l, as well as K-12 segregation. Comprehensive change on something that was so grossly negligent takes time. Without strong legislation including affirmative action it would be even worse if the population dynamics continued on the same trajectory. Im not a democrat either.
But calling an legislation correcting blatant negligence "a cudgel" is disingenuous to how great whites still have it in the US. There is literally no burden that whites have had to face in terms of their own economic growth, health outcomes, or access to education since this type of legislation has come around. If anything the diversity has been good for whites in all those areas.

My point isn't that the past legislation and efforts were all for naught. My point is that the very progress you cite is reason to believe that the vast majority of Americans are not racist and believe in equal opportunity and justice. I believe that is the case while also acknowledging that a racist past has laid the groundwork for many of the problems we see today.

Continuing to tell whites they've had it easy, they are privileged, that they are complicit in systemic racism, etc. doesn't yield much benefit. Making people feel guilty because of the color of their skin isn't a successful strategy for change.

I'd like to hear actionable ideas from you on what changes you think should happen to help provide African Americans more opportunities and upward mobility.

Q you really believe the vast majority in this country don't have a racial bias? I'd invite you to speak to some black people and ask their true experience. I'll explain why I say that.

Yesterday afternoon I spent some time reading and watching a couple facebook posts by black men that I went to college with. Both guys were ballers in their own right in college. One of them still lives in Lincoln and married to someone I knew pretty well in college. His wife's family did not want them dating back then because he was black. That was widely known around campus. He is very accomplished in his field.

The other guy was the head resident assistant in the dormitories for a couple years. He was basically like a staff member. That's the level of responsibility and way he carried himself...IMO in a good way. He deserved his position a leader and just a great guy. He was also fun to talk with had a a lot of wisdom to share and was giving with his time. I specifically remember a couple conversations with him that I've taken with me throughout the years. He has recently started his own tech company. I believe previous to that he was a CEO in the health care industry.

Both men shared their experience as black men how certain experiences have made them feel either fear for their own and/or their families safety or that the country as a whole didn't respect them as much as someone else with a different color of skin. They both said they felt tired and worn down. There was a desperation in their posts unexpected from them.

These posts hit me in a different way than some. Why? They are strong independent men that always seemed to be unaffected by what anyone else said. They played their game on and off the court. One of them is around 6'9" and back in the 90's he would play a quirky perimeter game and people would complain and want him to play in the post. He wasn't gonna do that instead he was going to rain threes on you. the other guy used to be more athletic and dunk on people but put on some weight and would play a physical brand of basketball but with a certain quickness and finesse that would often shock people that didn't know what to expect. If these 2 guys are feeling like this and and have been feeling affects of this for years...damn. These guys were never people that made excuses for anything. They forged their own path.

No, we aren't going to eliminate racism and to some extent I think you are right just demanding everyone feel white guilt isn't the answer either. On the other hand we gotta fucking do better than we have. As my friend said on his Facebook video..."I am not ok." This country clearly isn't ok. We can do better and we can do better for not just one community we can do better for all. Has anyone mentioned the Native American community? I've seen a couple articles recently that bring that up. There are some areas that are in really bad shape. I don't think it's a bad thing to be focusing primarily on the Black community either. They are clearly hurting right now. To me part of what changes in this country (there needs to be some legislation in terms of police brutality) is working towards real community. That's hard work. That's willingness and desire to go out and do some things likely beyond our current sphere. Its willingness to screw up. It's willingness from everyone to be a part of something and grace when the other misses the mark. Some of what has worn down POC is micro aggressions that erodes trust. Little experiences that build trust can have the opposite effect. We can do better and it doesn't have to be out of shame it can be because it's what we truly want for ourselves, our family and everyone in our community. We also can listen, process what is going on and realize things aren't ok or we will just go back to whatever we were doing before.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Monster, We all have biases that go in multiple directions. That is different from calling people racist. I agree that we need to listen and open our minds and you have clearly modeled that behavior.

But beyond that, we need substantive solutions. Peaceful demonstrations, listening, communications - that is all important stuff. But then substantive and serious proposals need to be discussed and debated.

[thedoper]

All of that also just excuses the fact that blacks are having twice the amount of police encounters as whites despite being a fraction of the population. Why must the outcome be a result of racism and not cultural dynamics? Accountability is getting lost here in pursuit of another narrative.

I think accountability is a huge part of this discussion on both sides of the issue. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? Its a great question. The most likely answer is that they are the target of more policing.

I truly believe we're not too far off of an agreement, but that bolded sentence is a dangerous assumption that so far isn't substantiated. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? They're committing more crimes. That's the logical answer here that is void of any bias.

The bigger and more problematic issues are rooted in the culture, in my opinion. Where that stems from is up for debate, but oppression and police brutality pale in comparison to single-parent homes, gang violence, drug involvement, and educational failure when it comes to discussing why our black communities aren't growing like all races in America wants them to. I feel confident in saying that if those matters were improved considerably, then we'd see that subset of a demographic thrive.

https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/

You may not think Stanford is a great source of data but their study of 100million police stops shows implicit bias in regards to people of color. I think the assumption that blacks are more apt to be engaged in criminal activity is much more dangerous and is likely part of the issue why there is more engagement between people of color and police. I do think you present some compelling ways for the improvement of outcomes for people of color (better education, more opportunity for stable family units). I just believe that the dominant culture should be taking on a good deal of the responsibility in helping those communities address those issues, since the dominant culture played such a huge role in creating the dynamics we have now. I do agree with Q that police reform or one issue isnt going to magically solve everything. I think its about attitude. I hope that anyone who has had privilege and opportunity in their life should be grateful for that and be looking around to examine what they can do to create those opportunities for others, especially when a lack of opportunity could exist for a reason as silly as what someone looks like.

There has been decades of affirmative action, an EEOC, corporate diversity training, and tons of non-profits and scholarship money dedicated to people of color. Continuing to hit whites over the head with the cudgel of racism just isn't a very effective strategy in my opinion in light of how much effort, legislation, and money has been thrown at this problem.

By the way, one thing that has dominated inner cities is democratic governance. Now I'm not suggesting republicans would do any better, but are these folks looking in the mirror at all and asking what they could do better? They are the ones that negotiate the union contracts that protect cops from the type of accountability that could have prevented this tragedy. And let's not even start with public school unions....

I disagree. Blacks have been trending up in attaining university degrees and general socioeconomic status as a direct result from legislation and that type of social action. We are still a few generations removed from when it was legal for certain universities to not allow minority students to even attend l, as well as K-12 segregation. Comprehensive change on something that was so grossly negligent takes time. Without strong legislation including affirmative action it would be even worse if the population dynamics continued on the same trajectory. Im not a democrat either.
But calling an legislation correcting blatant negligence "a cudgel" is disingenuous to how great whites still have it in the US. There is literally no burden that whites have had to face in terms of their own economic growth, health outcomes, or access to education since this type of legislation has come around. If anything the diversity has been good for whites in all those areas.

My point isn't that the past legislation and efforts were all for naught. My point is that the very progress you cite is reason to believe that the vast majority of Americans are not racist and believe in equal opportunity and justice. I believe that is the case while also acknowledging that a racist past has laid the groundwork for many of the problems we see today.

Continuing to tell whites they've had it easy, they are privileged, that they are complicit in systemic racism, etc. doesn't yield much benefit. Making people feel guilty because of the color of their skin isn't a successful strategy for change.

I'd like to hear actionable ideas from you on what changes you think should happen to help provide African Americans more opportunities and upward mobility.

Most of the legislation brought up was forced on whites through the courts not through their own good will. Its the legal principles of our laws that protect all, even though they weren't originally intended to protect Native Americans, Blacks, or women. Generally I agree that there has been a lot of progress, but I believe that has just as much been because these forced laws have made whites see the humanity in people of color by their forced proximity to them. The other mode of progress has been through movements very similar to what is happening now, when horrible things happen, the minority populations protest, and incremental changes happen.

Telling white people all of those things you mention creates a lot of change if white people listen, and acknowledge those realities. If a white individual doesnt believe that, then of course they arent going to be an agent of change.

Finally on solutions, I believe the top priority is eduction. I believe that all public universities should be mandated to have enrolment demographics that mirror the racial demographics within their states. If they dont have the applications to meet those demographics, they as public institutions should be heavily involved in their state K-12 districts with programming that guarantees admission to a degree program on the other side.

I also believe all public schools (k-12)should have equal funding (including PTA monies). They should limit the ability of certain districts to enhance their opportunities through private donation or find a distribution model similar to baseball. It would be nice if this were applied to private schools too but that would be a supreme court battle I am sure.

I can see the frustrations and deficiencies in how current affirmative action operates because finding suitable candidates is a practical issue void of race. Capacity building is the only way out of any of this. Its how you breed opportunity, its also a huge opportunity for all of society to gain benefits of a more diverse, educated workforce.

Finally I never called anyone here a racist nor do I believe anyone is. I do believe racism on an individual level is more about intentionality. Im not saying your accusing me of that either i just want to be clear that I dont want to insult anyone. That being said, Im pretty sure all of us have had misinformed or ignorant views about people unlike our own at various points in our lives. I have. Even with the best intentions racist dynamics exist in our society, hence the term systemic racism. I could try and come up with a term that absolves individual, well meaning white people. For me it serves a purpose to want to be part of striving for a more equitable society. Maybe other people are inherently above it all and are working diligently for that without taking part in a shared responsibility to correct a wrong, good for them if so. But I suspect those people are fewer than the people who believe that their life is just fine the way it is and that the responsibility for positive change rests within the communities with the problems.

[Monster]

Monster, We all have biases that go in multiple directions. That is different from calling people racist. I agree that we need to listen and open our minds and you have clearly modeled that behavior.

But beyond that, we need substantive solutions. Peaceful demonstrations, listening, communications - that is all important stuff. But then substantive and serious proposals need to be discussed and debated.

Thanks for responding. I think we are pretty much on the same page. I think there are more people that veer into actual racism than simply biases than you do however we both agree that often calling people out as racist may not be effective. I think we both want to hear and find answers but at times struggle to find anything that really seems to have significant impact. I do think some of the legislation could be having a more significant impact than can be seen but really how can we really measure it? There are so so so many factors to consider.

Personally I'm not waiting around for some legislative action. I'm finding some ways no matter how small to be part of the solution. One of the things is I've been kicking around some ideas of how to volunteer my time more than I have although that is something I have been considering for a while.

There have been some Facebook posts I've seen that said one of the biggest ways that things people are wanting to change in the current movement are actually at the local level. We need to be looking to and learning about our local officials and making sure we are making a worthwhile selection next time elections happen in and for our own communities. In some cases that may have a really significant impact based on the breakdown of where we live and who typically is voting for and running for office. I've felt for years in so many spheres this is something that's often vastly under considered by people when considering various problems in society.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Thanks for sharing your ideas for change Doper. I certainly think education is where a huge opportunity for improvement exists, Your university idea is an explicit use of quotas, which is unconstitutional at the moment, so there would need to be major legislation enacted to make that happen. Regardless, the bigger problem is K-12 which I think you would agree. I don't necessarily agree that funding is the major root cause, but I can't argue that - all else being equal - more money is better than less money.

I'm a little concerned that your proposals are 100% top-down, which perhaps you believe is the only way out of this mess. That's fair. I do find it curious that you have stayed completely silent on the role of public unions, which work 100% on behalf of the employee they represent (which includes the abusive cop or the derelict school teacher) versus the people they actually serve. To me, reform of the relationship between state/local goverments and unions is a key plank in any hope to reverse the cycle of dysfunction in our inner cities.

[Monster]

All of that also just excuses the fact that blacks are having twice the amount of police encounters as whites despite being a fraction of the population. Why must the outcome be a result of racism and not cultural dynamics? Accountability is getting lost here in pursuit of another narrative.

I think accountability is a huge part of this discussion on both sides of the issue. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? Its a great question. The most likely answer is that they are the target of more policing.

I truly believe we're not too far off of an agreement, but that bolded sentence is a dangerous assumption that so far isn't substantiated. Why are more blacks having encounters with police? They're committing more crimes. That's the logical answer here that is void of any bias.

The bigger and more problematic issues are rooted in the culture, in my opinion. Where that stems from is up for debate, but oppression and police brutality pale in comparison to single-parent homes, gang violence, drug involvement, and educational failure when it comes to discussing why our black communities aren't growing like all races in America wants them to. I feel confident in saying that if those matters were improved considerably, then we'd see that subset of a demographic thrive.

https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/

You may not think Stanford is a great source of data but their study of 100million police stops shows implicit bias in regards to people of color. I think the assumption that blacks are more apt to be engaged in criminal activity is much more dangerous and is likely part of the issue why there is more engagement between people of color and police. I do think you present some compelling ways for the improvement of outcomes for people of color (better education, more opportunity for stable family units). I just believe that the dominant culture should be taking on a good deal of the responsibility in helping those communities address those issues, since the dominant culture played such a huge role in creating the dynamics we have now. I do agree with Q that police reform or one issue isnt going to magically solve everything. I think its about attitude. I hope that anyone who has had privilege and opportunity in their life should be grateful for that and be looking around to examine what they can do to create those opportunities for others, especially when a lack of opportunity could exist for a reason as silly as what someone looks like.

There has been decades of affirmative action, an EEOC, corporate diversity training, and tons of non-profits and scholarship money dedicated to people of color. Continuing to hit whites over the head with the cudgel of racism just isn't a very effective strategy in my opinion in light of how much effort, legislation, and money has been thrown at this problem.

By the way, one thing that has dominated inner cities is democratic governance. Now I'm not suggesting republicans would do any better, but are these folks looking in the mirror at all and asking what they could do better? They are the ones that negotiate the union contracts that protect cops from the type of accountability that could have prevented this tragedy. And let's not even start with public school unions....

I disagree. Blacks have been trending up in attaining university degrees and general socioeconomic status as a direct result from legislation and that type of social action. We are still a few generations removed from when it was legal for certain universities to not allow minority students to even attend l, as well as K-12 segregation. Comprehensive change on something that was so grossly negligent takes time. Without strong legislation including affirmative action it would be even worse if the population dynamics continued on the same trajectory. Im not a democrat either.
But calling an legislation correcting blatant negligence "a cudgel" is disingenuous to how great whites still have it in the US. There is literally no burden that whites have had to face in terms of their own economic growth, health outcomes, or access to education since this type of legislation has come around. If anything the diversity has been good for whites in all those areas.

My point isn't that the past legislation and efforts were all for naught. My point is that the very progress you cite is reason to believe that the vast majority of Americans are not racist and believe in equal opportunity and justice. I believe that is the case while also acknowledging that a racist past has laid the groundwork for many of the problems we see today.

Continuing to tell whites they've had it easy, they are privileged, that they are complicit in systemic racism, etc. doesn't yield much benefit. Making people feel guilty because of the color of their skin isn't a successful strategy for change.

I'd like to hear actionable ideas from you on what changes you think should happen to help provide African Americans more opportunities and upward mobility.

Most of the legislation brought up was forced on whites through the courts not through their own good will. Its the legal principles of our laws that protect all, even though they weren't originally intended to protect Native Americans, Blacks, or women. Generally I agree that there has been a lot of progress, but I believe that has just as much been because these forced laws have made whites see the humanity in people of color by their forced proximity to them. The other mode of progress has been through movements very similar to what is happening now, when horrible things happen, the minority populations protest, and incremental changes happen.

Telling white people all of those things you mention creates a lot of change if white people listen, and acknowledge those realities. If a white individual doesnt believe that, then of course they arent going to be an agent of change.

Finally on solutions, I believe the top priority is eduction. I believe that all public universities should be mandated to have enrolment demographics that mirror the racial demographics within their states. If they dont have the applications to meet those demographics, they as public institutions should be heavily involved in their state K-12 districts with programming that guarantees admission to a degree program on the other side.

I also believe all public schools (k-12)should have equal funding (including PTA monies). They should limit the ability of certain districts to enhance their opportunities through private donation or find a distribution model similar to baseball. It would be nice if this were applied to private schools too but that would be a supreme court battle I am sure.

I can see the frustrations and deficiencies in how current affirmative action operates because finding suitable candidates is a practical issue void of race. Capacity building is the only way out of any of this. Its how you breed opportunity, its also a huge opportunity for all of society to gain benefits of a more diverse, educated workforce.

Finally I never called anyone here a racist nor do I believe anyone is. I do believe racism on an individual level is more about intentionality. Im not saying your accusing me of that either i just want to be clear that I dont want to insult anyone. That being said, Im pretty sure all of us have had misinformed or ignorant views about people unlike our own at various points in our lives. I have. Even with the best intentions racist dynamics exist in our society, hence the term systemic racism. I could try and come up with a term that absolves individual, well meaning white people. For me it serves a purpose to want to be part of striving for a more equitable society. Maybe other people are inherently above it all and are working diligently for that without taking part in a shared responsibility to correct a wrong, good for them if so. But I suspect those people are fewer than the people who believe that their life is just fine the way it is and that the responsibility for positive change rests within the communities with the problems.

Lots of good stuff here. I'll just add to these thoughts especially on schools that IMHO the education system is broken even if you have schools with reasonable resources...so I only gets worse with less of them. I've seen issues in the past and the schools I experienced it were not in the low socioeconomically disadvantaged areas. I think the local public school systems in my city are far from terrible...but there are some real problems. Oh and I just remembered that there was a Local HS basketball game that happened this year before COVID that had a racial issue during the game from someone in the stands.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Monster, We all have biases that go in multiple directions. That is different from calling people racist. I agree that we need to listen and open our minds and you have clearly modeled that behavior.

But beyond that, we need substantive solutions. Peaceful demonstrations, listening, communications - that is all important stuff. But then substantive and serious proposals need to be discussed and debated.

Thanks for responding. I think we are pretty much on the same page. I think there are more people that veer into actual racism than simply biases than you do however we both agree that often calling people out as racist may not be effective. I think we both want to hear and find answers but at times struggle to find anything that really seems to have significant impact. I do think some of the legislation could be having a more significant impact than can be seen but really how can we really measure it? There are so so so many factors to consider.

Personally I'm not waiting around for some legislative action. I'm finding some ways no matter how small to be part of the solution. One of the things is I've been kicking around some ideas of how to volunteer my time more than I have although that is something I have been considering for a while.

There have been some Facebook posts I've seen that said one of the biggest ways that things people are wanting to change in the current movement are actually at the local level. We need to be looking to and learning about our local officials and making sure we are making a worthwhile selection next time elections happen in and for our own communities. In some cases that may have a really significant impact based on the breakdown of where we live and who typically is voting for and running for office. I've felt for years in so many spheres this is something that's often vastly under considered by people when considering various problems in society.

Yes, I agree local elections are important. I admit to being fairly lax in this regard, but I'm also living in a fairly well-run and adequately funded locality (privileged, if you will!). I suppose if things went sideways I'd get more engaged....