FNG wrote:I'll repeat a question I posed earlier when considering whether we would offer DLO/Beasley for Simmons. Which starting 5 would you rather begin the season with?
KAT
Simmons
Jaden
Ant
Beverley
or
KAT
Vando
Jaden
Ant
DLO
It's a pretty easy answer for me. It's also clear to me that this discussion is irrelevant, because Philly would have no interest in this deal. There still holding out for a Lillard-like deal, and I can't see how the wolves get into that conversation...even with another team involved.
The first lineup is so much better and its not even close. The Wolves still would have ample scoring, but now they would have some legit defenders and perhaps more efficient scorers. I'd be both shocked and thrilled if Rosas could get Simmons without giving up KAT, Ant or McDaniels and shedding DLO's massive contract would be a big win too.
Since Ben Simmons is a hot topic in this thread, I figure I'll drop this here. This is a three-team deal that Bleacher Report's Zach Buckley came up with in which Sacramento lands Simmons.
Sixers receive: Buddy Hield, Goran Dragic, a 2022 first-round pick and a 2024 first-round pick from the Kings, a 2023 second-round pick and a 2025 second-round pick from the Raptors
Kings receive: Simmons
Raptors receive: Marvin Bagley III and Furkan Korkmaz
My first thought when I saw this trade is that Minnesota could beat that offer in multiple ways without needing to include a third or fourth team, which is what some sources have said would be necessary. I think the Wolves could offer Patrick Beverley, Malik Beasley, their 2022 first-round pick, their 2024 first-round pick, and two second-round picks of Philadelphia's choosing. In my opinion, that package exceeds the one in Bleacher Report's article.
Now, I'm not saying the Sixers would pounce on that trade. I continue to think that Philadelphia is going to hold off on any Simmons trade until they've exhausted all efforts on prying Damian Lillard away from Portland. But I think Minnesota has several avenues that they could explore that ends with Simmons in a Wolves jersey. Whether or not that's the right move to make is another discussion.
Finding a Wolves trade with Simmons is a bit tricky because Philly no longer has George Hill's contract to ship out. While, I think a DLO plus draft picks for Ben works for the Wolves, its a bit hard to figure out how to turn the draft picks into players Philly would want and within the salary cap restraints. I found a trade that would works under the ESPN trade machine if Philly is willing to also ship out Tobias Harris.
Timberwolves trade: DLO, Beasley, Beverley and 2022 first, 2024 first Timberwolves receive: Ben Simmons, Tobias Harris, Malachi Flynn
Philly trades: Simmons, Tobias Harris, Tolliver & 2024 first round pick: Philly receives: Siakam, DLO, Beverley, Wolves 2024 1st round pick
Toronto trades: Siakam, Flynn Toronto receives Beasley, Tolliver, Wolves 2022 and Philly 2024 first round pick
KG4Ever wrote:Finding a Wolves trade with Simmons is a bit tricky because Philly no longer has George Hill's contract to ship out. While, I think a DLO plus draft picks for Ben works for the Wolves, its a bit hard to figure out how to turn the draft picks into players Philly would want and within the salary cap restraints. I found a trade that would works under the ESPN trade machine if Philly is willing to also willing to ship out Tobias Harris.
Timberwolves trade: DLO, Beasley, Beverley and 2022 first, 2024 first Timberwolves receive: Ben Simmons, Tobias Harris, Malachi Flynn
Philly trades: Simmons, Tobias Harris, Tolliver & 2024 first round pick: Philly receives: Siakam, DLO, Beverley, Wolves 2024 1st round pick
Toronto trades: Siakam, Flynn Toronto receives Beasley, Tolliver, Wolves 2022 and Philly 2024 first round pick
That doesn't make Philadelphia better this season... and it doesn't give them much for the future either.
KG4Ever wrote:Finding a Wolves trade with Simmons is a bit tricky because Philly no longer has George Hill's contract to ship out. While, I think a DLO plus draft picks for Ben works for the Wolves, its a bit hard to figure out how to turn the draft picks into players Philly would want and within the salary cap restraints. I found a trade that would works under the ESPN trade machine if Philly is willing to also willing to ship out Tobias Harris.
Timberwolves trade: DLO, Beasley, Beverley and 2022 first, 2024 first Timberwolves receive: Ben Simmons, Tobias Harris, Malachi Flynn
Philly trades: Simmons, Tobias Harris, Tolliver & 2024 first round pick: Philly receives: Siakam, DLO, Beverley, Wolves 2024 1st round pick
Toronto trades: Siakam, Flynn Toronto receives Beasley, Tolliver, Wolves 2022 and Philly 2024 first round pick
That doesn't make Philadelphia better this season... and it doesn't give them much for the future either.
It also leaves Minnesota extremely bare in terms of three-point shooting. Ben Simmons would leave one situation that had issues with clogged driving lanes and into another that had similar issues. Yay. The Wolves are back to playing basketball from the 1980's.
KG4Ever wrote:Finding a Wolves trade with Simmons is a bit tricky because Philly no longer has George Hill's contract to ship out. While, I think a DLO plus draft picks for Ben works for the Wolves, its a bit hard to figure out how to turn the draft picks into players Philly would want and within the salary cap restraints. I found a trade that would works under the ESPN trade machine if Philly is willing to also willing to ship out Tobias Harris.
Timberwolves trade: DLO, Beasley, Beverley and 2022 first, 2024 first Timberwolves receive: Ben Simmons, Tobias Harris, Malachi Flynn
Philly trades: Simmons, Tobias Harris, Tolliver & 2024 first round pick: Philly receives: Siakam, DLO, Beverley, Wolves 2024 1st round pick
Toronto trades: Siakam, Flynn Toronto receives Beasley, Tolliver, Wolves 2022 and Philly 2024 first round pick
That doesn't make Philadelphia better this season... and it doesn't give them much for the future either.
It also leaves Minnesota extremely bare in terms of three-point shooting. Ben Simmons would leave one situation that had issues with clogged driving lanes and into another that had similar issues. Yay. The Wolves are back to playing basketball from the 1980's.
Salaries and picks aside... Ben Simmons and Tobias Harris replacing DLO and Beasley and Beverly still makes MN a much better team next season.
KG4Ever wrote:Finding a Wolves trade with Simmons is a bit tricky because Philly no longer has George Hill's contract to ship out. While, I think a DLO plus draft picks for Ben works for the Wolves, its a bit hard to figure out how to turn the draft picks into players Philly would want and within the salary cap restraints. I found a trade that would works under the ESPN trade machine if Philly is willing to also willing to ship out Tobias Harris.
Timberwolves trade: DLO, Beasley, Beverley and 2022 first, 2024 first Timberwolves receive: Ben Simmons, Tobias Harris, Malachi Flynn
Philly trades: Simmons, Tobias Harris, Tolliver & 2024 first round pick: Philly receives: Siakam, DLO, Beverley, Wolves 2024 1st round pick
Toronto trades: Siakam, Flynn Toronto receives Beasley, Tolliver, Wolves 2022 and Philly 2024 first round pick
That doesn't make Philadelphia better this season... and it doesn't give them much for the future either.
It also leaves Minnesota extremely bare in terms of three-point shooting. Ben Simmons would leave one situation that had issues with clogged driving lanes and into another that had similar issues. Yay. The Wolves are back to playing basketball from the 1980's.
Salaries and picks aside... Ben Simmons and Tobias Harris replacing DLO and Beasley and Beverly still makes MN a much better team next season.
You're probably right, but hopefully you're smart enough to realize that Minnesota isn't getting Tobias Harris as a throw-in in any trade. That's what he is in the deal suggested above as it would take an outgoing package close to what was included for just Ben Simmons only. And good luck keeping Jaden McDaniels or Naz Reid in any of those scenarios. The whole cupboard would be emptied and that's assuming Philadelphia would even be interested in selling more of their pieces, which goes against everything reported about them wanting to remain in win-now mode.
(this post is for discussion purposes only, as I'm on record as saying I see no path forward for the Wolves to acquire Ben Simmons...dammit)
I keep hearing about Simmons' offensive woes and how teams will suffer offensively with him in the starting lineup. There won't be enough 3-point shooting, the lanes will be clogged, etc. I've provided a lot of data to show that Ben's individual offensive numbers are actually quite good. But we haven't talked about the impact he has on a team's offense. So let's look at Philly last year, since I'm sure we can all agree the ball was in Ben's hands much of the time.
3-point shooting: 37.4%, 11th in the league (Wolves 34.9%, 25th)
TS%: 57.9%, 11th in the league (Wolves 55.5%, 25th)
ORtg: 112.09, 13th in the league (Wolves 108.91, 24th)
Most of us probably think of Philly as a defensive team...they did have the 2nd best defensive rating on NBA.com last year (the Wolves were 28th) and obviously Ben was the centerpiece of their defense. But they also performed quite well by most offensive measures.
I recognize that the Wolves were missing DLO and Beasley for a lot of the year, and that likely hurt their offensive numbers. But both players have missed considerable time throughout their careers, so who's to say last year wasn't representative. I keep hearing that our 3-point shooting will suffer if we trade DLO and Beasley for Simmons, but while we know Ben won't be taking any threes, I think we would be just fine beyond the arc. Check out these post All-star game 3-point stats for some Wolves that Ben would be finding behind the 3-point line (I'm using second half of the season stats, because I think most of us believe our two rookies will look more like they did in the second half then the first...it's natural for rookies to need some time to adapt to the NBA:
KAT: 39.1%
Jaden: 38.3
Ant: 34.9%
Naz: 36.3
Beverley didn't play much the second half of the season, but he shot 39.7% on threes for the year. The wild card would be Nowell. He was a 40% three-point shooter in college and even better in the G League. I believe he will progress to a better mean this season, but I admit there is risk in him replacing Beasley as 6th man. Then again, NBA players need to work on their games in the off-season, and unfortunately there isn't a basket in the Wright County jail. One thing we know about Simmons...if a guy is open beyond the arc, he will find him. And it looks he would have several good targets on the Wolves.
Pipe dream, but acquiring Simmons would instantly transform this woeful team.
FNG, this team is in serious trouble if Naz Reid is one of the best shooters on the roster. Your post illustrates that he'd be exactly that. And look at the roster of last season's Sixers team. While it didn't have enough three-point shooting in the eyes of many, it did have much more than the skeleton of a Wolves team that you're alluding to having post-trade. Acquiring Ben Simmons is a good idea for all of the reasons you've explained above and in the past. Selling your best perimeter shooters -- and in this case a secondary creator -- in order to accomplish that just isn't the right move at this time.
Camden wrote:FNG, this team is in serious trouble if Naz Reid is one of the best shooters on the roster. Your post illustrates that he'd be exactly that. And look at the roster of last season's Sixers team. While it didn't have enough three-point shooting in the eyes of many, it did have much more than the skeleton of a Wolves team that you're alluding to having post-trade. Acquiring Ben Simmons is a good idea for all of the reasons you've explained above and in the past. Selling your best perimeter shooters -- and in this case a secondary creator -- in order to accomplish that just isn't the right move at this time.
