FNG wrote:I'm going to make the point again, or at least every time we malign Simmons for his poor shooting and glorify DLO and Beasley for their offense. Every time Ben takes a shot, it has a statistically better chance of resulting in points than when either DLO or Beasley does...that's what eFG% tells us. And that is true for this past season, and it's true for their respective entire careers. And I don't need to hear the argument that Simmons isn't the volume shooter that DLO or Beas are, because with KAT and Ant, we don't need another volume shooter. And then there's the Grand Canyon of difference between their defensive competency. Shying away from a Simmons for DLO/Beas deal because it doesn't leave us with enough offense just isn't supported by statistics, guys. I don't think DLO/Beas is enough to get the deal done, but it couldn't be any more of a no brainer from a Wolves perspective.
Simmons wasn't an All Star either the last three years for no good reason. He's arguably the best defender in the NBA, at least in the conversation, has elite passing and handle. Finishes around the rim at a very high level. Going down hill to the rim is maybe only outdone by LeBron (pre injury) and Giannis.
Pork comparing him to Rubio is just silly.
He is more efficient then both DLO and Beas. on offense The only thing I would say on the contrary is that he can clog the paint some in the half court, since he simply doesn't shoot 3's. However, if you weigh his entire game, he's a guy I would love on our team.
Like I said, he doesn't make the All Star game 3 years in a row for looking nice in his uniform. His strengths far outweigh his weaknesses.
I think most everyone will agree that Simmons is a talent and plus-level contributor. But he's definitely not in that first tier of stars and his one major flaw is a really big deal come playoff time.
I get the accumulation of great players, but I just can't get over the hump with how much shooting we lose with both DLO and Beasley gone if that's what it required to get Simmons.
I also happen to believe that Beasley showed signs last season and the season before of emerging into one of the league's most dangerous 3-point threats. Certainly not Steph Curry/Trae Young territory, but the type of flamethrower that could shoot a team back into a game coming off the bench. And he's only 24. These guys peak in their mid to late 20s as shooters. It would pain me to lose him AND DLO while adding a guy that literally replaces zero percent of their outside shooting.
FNG wrote:I'm going to make the point again, or at least every time we malign Simmons for his poor shooting and glorify DLO and Beasley for their offense. Every time Ben takes a shot, it has a statistically better chance of resulting in points than when either DLO or Beasley does...that's what eFG% tells us. And that is true for this past season, and it's true for their respective entire careers. And I don't need to hear the argument that Simmons isn't the volume shooter that DLO or Beas are, because with KAT and Ant, we don't need another volume shooter. And then there's the Grand Canyon of difference between their defensive competency. Shying away from a Simmons for DLO/Beas deal because it doesn't leave us with enough offense just isn't supported by statistics, guys. I don't think DLO/Beas is enough to get the deal done, but it couldn't be any more of a no brainer from a Wolves perspective.
Simmons wasn't an All Star either the last three years for no good reason. He's arguably the best defender in the NBA, at least in the conversation, has elite passing and handle. Finishes around the rim at a very high level. Going down hill to the rim is maybe only outdone by LeBron (pre injury) and Giannis.
Pork comparing him to Rubio is just silly.
He is more efficient then both DLO and Beas. on offense The only thing I would say on the contrary is that he can clog the paint some in the half court, since he simply doesn't shoot 3's. However, if you weigh his entire game, he's a guy I would love on our team.
Like I said, he doesn't make the All Star game 3 years in a row for looking nice in his uniform. His strengths far outweigh his weaknesses.
I think most everyone will agree that Simmons is a talent and plus-level contributor. But he's definitely not in that first tier of stars and his one major flaw is a really big deal come playoff time.
I get the accumulation of great players, but I just can't get over the hump with how much shooting we lose with both DLO and Beasley gone if that's what it required to get Simmons.
I also happen to believe that Beasley showed signs last season and the season before of emerging into one of the league's most dangerous 3-point threats. Certainly not Steph Curry/Trae Young territory, but the type of flamethrower that could shoot a team back into a game coming off the bench. And he's only 24. These guys peak in their mid to late 20s as shooters. It would pain me to lose him AND DLO while adding a guy that literally replaces zero percent of their outside shooting.
Those holes would be also then prioritized from trade onwards. You can find cheaper 3 point shooters who can defend decent. Someone like Nowell I would expect could step in, we could move Rubio for someone, etc. Even guys like Juancho and Layman have shown potential for hitting 3's at a nice clip.
What you do is move on from guys like Vandy, Culver and Okogie and fill the roster out with solid role players who will hit the 3 and defend decently.
FNG wrote:I'm going to make the point again, or at least every time we malign Simmons for his poor shooting and glorify DLO and Beasley for their offense. Every time Ben takes a shot, it has a statistically better chance of resulting in points than when either DLO or Beasley does...that's what eFG% tells us. And that is true for this past season, and it's true for their respective entire careers. And I don't need to hear the argument that Simmons isn't the volume shooter that DLO or Beas are, because with KAT and Ant, we don't need another volume shooter. And then there's the Grand Canyon of difference between their defensive competency. Shying away from a Simmons for DLO/Beas deal because it doesn't leave us with enough offense just isn't supported by statistics, guys. I don't think DLO/Beas is enough to get the deal done, but it couldn't be any more of a no brainer from a Wolves perspective.
Simmons wasn't an All Star either the last three years for no good reason. He's arguably the best defender in the NBA, at least in the conversation, has elite passing and handle. Finishes around the rim at a very high level. Going down hill to the rim is maybe only outdone by LeBron (pre injury) and Giannis.
Pork comparing him to Rubio is just silly.
He is more efficient then both DLO and Beas. on offense The only thing I would say on the contrary is that he can clog the paint some in the half court, since he simply doesn't shoot 3's. However, if you weigh his entire game, he's a guy I would love on our team.
Like I said, he doesn't make the All Star game 3 years in a row for looking nice in his uniform. His strengths far outweigh his weaknesses.
I think most everyone will agree that Simmons is a talent and plus-level contributor. But he's definitely not in that first tier of stars and his one major flaw is a really big deal come playoff time.
I get the accumulation of great players, but I just can't get over the hump with how much shooting we lose with both DLO and Beasley gone if that's what it required to get Simmons.
I also happen to believe that Beasley showed signs last season and the season before of emerging into one of the league's most dangerous 3-point threats. Certainly not Steph Curry/Trae Young territory, but the type of flamethrower that could shoot a team back into a game coming off the bench. And he's only 24. These guys peak in their mid to late 20s as shooters. It would pain me to lose him AND DLO while adding a guy that literally replaces zero percent of their outside shooting.
Those holes would be also then prioritized from trade onwards. You can find cheaper 3 point shooters who can defend decent. Someone like Nowell I would expect could step in, we could move Rubio for someone, etc. Even guys like Juancho and Layman have shown potential for hitting 3's at a nice clip.
What you do is move on from guys like Vandy, Culver and Okogie and fill the roster out with solid role players who will hit the 3 and defend decently.
Really?! Please start naming these cheap 3-point shooters that can defend if they are so plentiful and what assets would you use to acquire them?
FNG wrote:I'm going to make the point again, or at least every time we malign Simmons for his poor shooting and glorify DLO and Beasley for their offense. Every time Ben takes a shot, it has a statistically better chance of resulting in points than when either DLO or Beasley does...that's what eFG% tells us. And that is true for this past season, and it's true for their respective entire careers. And I don't need to hear the argument that Simmons isn't the volume shooter that DLO or Beas are, because with KAT and Ant, we don't need another volume shooter. And then there's the Grand Canyon of difference between their defensive competency. Shying away from a Simmons for DLO/Beas deal because it doesn't leave us with enough offense just isn't supported by statistics, guys. I don't think DLO/Beas is enough to get the deal done, but it couldn't be any more of a no brainer from a Wolves perspective.
Simmons wasn't an All Star either the last three years for no good reason. He's arguably the best defender in the NBA, at least in the conversation, has elite passing and handle. Finishes around the rim at a very high level. Going down hill to the rim is maybe only outdone by LeBron (pre injury) and Giannis.
Pork comparing him to Rubio is just silly.
He is more efficient then both DLO and Beas. on offense The only thing I would say on the contrary is that he can clog the paint some in the half court, since he simply doesn't shoot 3's. However, if you weigh his entire game, he's a guy I would love on our team.
Like I said, he doesn't make the All Star game 3 years in a row for looking nice in his uniform. His strengths far outweigh his weaknesses.
I think most everyone will agree that Simmons is a talent and plus-level contributor. But he's definitely not in that first tier of stars and his one major flaw is a really big deal come playoff time.
I get the accumulation of great players, but I just can't get over the hump with how much shooting we lose with both DLO and Beasley gone if that's what it required to get Simmons.
I also happen to believe that Beasley showed signs last season and the season before of emerging into one of the league's most dangerous 3-point threats. Certainly not Steph Curry/Trae Young territory, but the type of flamethrower that could shoot a team back into a game coming off the bench. And he's only 24. These guys peak in their mid to late 20s as shooters. It would pain me to lose him AND DLO while adding a guy that literally replaces zero percent of their outside shooting.
Those holes would be also then prioritized from trade onwards. You can find cheaper 3 point shooters who can defend decent. Someone like Nowell I would expect could step in, we could move Rubio for someone, etc. Even guys like Juancho and Layman have shown potential for hitting 3's at a nice clip.
What you do is move on from guys like Vandy, Culver and Okogie and fill the roster out with solid role players who will hit the 3 and defend decently.
Really?! Please start naming these cheap 3-point shooters that can defend if they are so plentiful and what assets would you use to acquire them?
We have some on the roster already. A guy like Nowell could step up. Even a guy like Juancho who really only hits 3's well is better off with a guy like Simmons. Simmons is an elite defender, elite in transition. It would translate to more open 3's for other guys. He makes others better.
As far as potential trades, there are plenty of guys who are both avg on defense and avg in hitting 3's but can't do much else. I'm not even saying a great 3 and D guy, simply avg on both.
FNG wrote:I'm going to make the point again, or at least every time we malign Simmons for his poor shooting and glorify DLO and Beasley for their offense. Every time Ben takes a shot, it has a statistically better chance of resulting in points than when either DLO or Beasley does...that's what eFG% tells us. And that is true for this past season, and it's true for their respective entire careers. And I don't need to hear the argument that Simmons isn't the volume shooter that DLO or Beas are, because with KAT and Ant, we don't need another volume shooter. And then there's the Grand Canyon of difference between their defensive competency. Shying away from a Simmons for DLO/Beas deal because it doesn't leave us with enough offense just isn't supported by statistics, guys. I don't think DLO/Beas is enough to get the deal done, but it couldn't be any more of a no brainer from a Wolves perspective.
Simmons wasn't an All Star either the last three years for no good reason. He's arguably the best defender in the NBA, at least in the conversation, has elite passing and handle. Finishes around the rim at a very high level. Going down hill to the rim is maybe only outdone by LeBron (pre injury) and Giannis.
Pork comparing him to Rubio is just silly.
He is more efficient then both DLO and Beas. on offense The only thing I would say on the contrary is that he can clog the paint some in the half court, since he simply doesn't shoot 3's. However, if you weigh his entire game, he's a guy I would love on our team.
Like I said, he doesn't make the All Star game 3 years in a row for looking nice in his uniform. His strengths far outweigh his weaknesses.
I think most everyone will agree that Simmons is a talent and plus-level contributor. But he's definitely not in that first tier of stars and his one major flaw is a really big deal come playoff time.
I get the accumulation of great players, but I just can't get over the hump with how much shooting we lose with both DLO and Beasley gone if that's what it required to get Simmons.
I also happen to believe that Beasley showed signs last season and the season before of emerging into one of the league's most dangerous 3-point threats. Certainly not Steph Curry/Trae Young territory, but the type of flamethrower that could shoot a team back into a game coming off the bench. And he's only 24. These guys peak in their mid to late 20s as shooters. It would pain me to lose him AND DLO while adding a guy that literally replaces zero percent of their outside shooting.
Those holes would be also then prioritized from trade onwards. You can find cheaper 3 point shooters who can defend decent. Someone like Nowell I would expect could step in, we could move Rubio for someone, etc. Even guys like Juancho and Layman have shown potential for hitting 3's at a nice clip.
What you do is move on from guys like Vandy, Culver and Okogie and fill the roster out with solid role players who will hit the 3 and defend decently.
Really?! Please start naming these cheap 3-point shooters that can defend if they are so plentiful and what assets would you use to acquire them?
Who cares if they can defend?
Beasley and Russell can't defend. More importantly, are the new guys willing to TRY to defend? Blair is the new head defensive assistant. He came out with a quote today that defense is about effort. What's more likely? Getting Russell to finally buy in defensively and compete after making $100+M not caring about defense for several years now? Or, some fringe 4th or 5th option who can shoot and wants to keep a starting spot, so he'll compete defensively?
The other side of this is that the Wolves would have Simmons and McDaniels on the court... so at least 40% of the team would be solid defensively. That might not seem like much... but it's a step forward.
I guess I'm the only one that saw improvement in DLO's effort and effectiveness defensively after the return from injury?
Also...I've never questioned Beasley's effort level on the defensive end . . . He's laterally challenged...but the effort is there.
Defense...like offense... must be a team sport in the NBA. Thibs couldn't get buy in from a few players on team shoulder and hip defense...the wings and guards we have now were starting to position themselves correctly in more situations towards the end of the season.
I don't want any major changes this off-season. I really just want a summer and pre-season to develop what we have
leado01 wrote:I guess I'm the only one that saw improvement in DLO's effort and effectiveness defensively after the return from injury?
Also...I've never questioned Beasley's effort level on the defensive end . . . He's laterally challenged...but the effort is there.
Defense...like offense... must be a team sport in the NBA. Thibs couldn't get buy in from a few players on team shoulder and hip defense...the wings and guards we have now were starting to position themselves correctly in more situations towards the end of the season.
I don't want any major changes this off-season. I really just want a summer and pre-season to develop what we have
Leado -
As you know, I'm not a DLO fan, but I definitely noticed the improvement in his effort and effectiveness defensively after he came back from his knee surgery.
I agree with you about Beasley's defensive effort. He's a high-energy player who plays really hard on both ends of the court. As you noted, it's his lack of lateral quickness that hurts him defensively. But you can see his effort in his very good rebounding stats for his position.
Finally, I agree with you that defensive is a collective effort that can be greater than the sum of its parts. And I'm with you in not wanting any major changes this off season. I'd like to see a deal or free agent acquisition that brings in a defensive big to play alongside KAT. If we can do that via trade without giving up Ant, McDaniels, DLO, Beasley or a future lottery pick, then that's what I'd do.
Q, you're one of the most stat-based analytical guys on this board, and I've heard you extol the virtues of efficient shooting often. So I'm surprised by your comment above that we lose a lot of shooting if we trade DLO and Beas for Simmons, because we actually replace two inefficient shooters with one who is actually quite efficient despite his FT woes and lack of 3-point shooting. An efficient scorer tries to maximize his points per shot by good shot selection, and Simmons does this by converting a high percentage of his 2-point shots...something that DLO and Beas can't do. If your point is that we lose a lot of shooting volume with this trade, then I agree with you...DLO and Beas are going to consistently get off more shots than Ben. But with KAT and Ant already in the starting lineup, we don't need more shot volume, we need more efficient scoring next to them. And despite his 3-pointer avoidance, Ban has clearly shown that he is the most efficient scorer of the three.
I also don't agree with your point that Ben's outside shooting weakness is highlighted in the playoffs, because he has statistically performed better during the playoffs than the regular season. His FG% is a remarkable 62% over 24 games in the past two playoff series, and this year he averaged 12/9/8 in his 12 playoff games...slightly lower than his 14 PPG during the regular season, but with more rebounds and assists. More importantly, Philly's offense thrived when Ben was on the court this post-season compared to when he was off, averaging an astonishing 21.3 more points per 100 possessions when he was on the court compared to when he was off. The typical Philly fan is going to remember Ben's missed free throws (4 misses per game) and the bizarre no-dunk moment and blame him for losing to the Hawks, but in actuality it was the dreadful performance by the 76ers bench that cost them a series they should have won. And the disdain the 76er fan base has for Simmons right now is our only chance of stealing him away from Philly for a reasonable price.
Edit: I've been corrected before about using eFG% since it doesn't take into account free throws, but I haven't learned :oops: . It turns out though that even despite his poor free throw shooting, Simmons has a better TS% than both DLO and Beasley...although admittedly the gap isn't as large as it is with eFG%. So by either measure, Simmons is a more efficient shooter than DLO or Beasley.
FNG, I do value efficiency. but individual efficiency needs to be paired with overall team offensive efficiency to get a fuller picture.
Take Russell Westbrook for example (especially his OKC days). He has never been particularly efficient as a scorer, but his ability to break down a defense and get in the paint has led to countless easy dunks and open jumpers for team mates over the years. Of course he'd be even better if he were a lights-out shooter, but his ability to get to the rack at will and put tremendous pressure on a defense outweighs his shooting inefficiency because he's helping to lift others' efficiency up.
The other extreme would be DeAndre Jordan, who has a career field-goal percentage of 67%. Amazing ! Yet his impact and minutes have been diminished in recent years due to what he does to a team offense.
Simmons is in a great situation with Philly because the other four starters - Green, Embiid, Harris, and Curry - are all somewhere in the range of capable to elite 3-point shooters.
If we traded Beasley and DLO for Simmons, we'd have one truly proven 3-point shooter to put out there with him and that's KAT. Now opposing teams can play soft on multiple guys - not just Simmons. For as great of an all-around player Simmons is, I find this to be problematic given how important outside shooting is to an offense these days.
Q12543 wrote:FNG, I do value efficiency. but individual efficiency needs to be paired with overall team offensive efficiency to get a fuller picture.
Take Russell Westbrook for example (especially his OKC days). He has never been particularly efficient as a scorer, but his ability to break down a defense and get in the paint has led to countless easy dunks and open jumpers for team mates over the years. Of course he'd be even better if he were a lights-out shooter, but his ability to get to the rack at will and put tremendous pressure on a defense outweighs his shooting inefficiency because he's helping to lift others' efficiency up.
The other extreme would be DeAndre Jordan, who has a career field-goal percentage of 67%. Amazing ! Yet his impact and minutes have been diminished in recent years due to what he does to a team offense.
Simmons is in a great situation with Philly because the other four starters - Green, Embiid, Harris, and Curry - are all somewhere in the range of capable to elite 3-point shooters.
If we traded Beasley and DLO for Simmons, we'd have one truly proven 3-point shooter to put out there with him and that's KAT. Now opposing teams can play soft on multiple guys - not just Simmons. For as great of an all-around player Simmons is, I find this to be problematic given how important outside shooting is to an offense these days.
I agree, Q. I was going to write something similar, but you expressed my thoughts better than I would have. If we were simply talking about DLO for Simmons, I'd be on board. But I'm not interested in giving up Beasley and other assets as well. DLO and Beasley can both spread the floor for KAT to do damage in the low post where he's really effective and for Ant to drive the lane. Furthermore, Ant has shows an ability to penetrate and dish, which can set up KAT, DLO and/or Beasley for 3 pointers. I'll add that if we've learned anything from this year's playoffs it's the importance of depth. Giving up multiple good players for one would further deplete our already questionable depth.
