Minnesota Sports Forum

thedoper wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:With D-Lo: 3-2

Without D-Lo: 0-3

I'm not saying he's played great. He's been uncharacteristically bad shooting the basketball. He's had careless turnovers. I get all of that. What he does do is cause more problems for opposing defenses. He does create shots for others while also creating makeable shots for himself. He also has a propensity to make big shots in a time of need -- and I'm not just talking about end of game situations.

This team is severely missing him right now. Anthony Edwards noted it tonight after the game. The shots haven't been falling, but just the threat of D-Lo scoring is a weapon. The Wolves don't have that right now with Patrick Beverley and Jordan McLaughlin sharing point guard duties. Hopefully, D-Lo returns on Monday and provides a calming presence to the team and finds his stroke from range while maintaining the very solid defense he's shown early in the season. Lord knows this team needs a shot in the arm any way they can get it.

DLo is great at getting everyone in their place and running an offense while being an offensive threat. There is no doubt we're a better team with him. The crappy issue seems to be that the wheels shouldnt come off that bad. There needs to be some sort of system that can weather significant losses. And it should be KAT shooting 25 times a game even if theyre all jumpers.

Apparently DLO is not much of an offensive threat and not sure about the rest of what you said.

kekgeek1 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:With D-Lo: 3-2

Without D-Lo: 0-3

I'm not saying he's played great. He's been uncharacteristically bad shooting the basketball. He's had careless turnovers. I get all of that. What he does do is cause more problems for opposing defenses. He does create shots for others while also creating makeable shots for himself. He also has a propensity to make big shots in a time of need -- and I'm not just talking about end of game situations.

This team is severely missing him right now. Anthony Edwards noted it tonight after the game. The shots haven't been falling, but just the threat of D-Lo scoring is a weapon. The Wolves don't have that right now with Patrick Beverley and Jordan McLaughlin sharing point guard duties. Hopefully, D-Lo returns on Monday and provides a calming presence to the team and finds his stroke from range while maintaining the very solid defense he's shown early in the season. Lord knows this team needs a shot in the arm any way they can get it.

With all due respect - post less

I'm confused in what way was Cams post a bad one?

I'm not going to speak for Cool, kek, but I suspect it was the lack of context in Cam's opening stat. Yes, we are 0-2 in games DLo hasn't played in, and 3-3 in games he has. But you have to consider the teams we were playing against. The teams he played against are currently 10-33, and I think most of us would conclude a 3-3 record with almost all home games against injured bottom feeding teams is not very impressive. In contrast, we lost two games against the Clippers with DLo sitting out. The Clippers are 4-4...not great, but certainly better than the absurdly bad 10-33 record of the teams in our first 6 games. Context matters.

I believe I was the first person to point out DLo's improved defense, and I continue to point it out in every game summary. And the stats support the eye chart...it's only been 6 games, but his impact on defense is completely different than anything we have ever seen from him, and it has made a difference. The Wolves give up 22.8 fewer points per 100 when DLo is on the court rather than off, an impact similar to what JO has brought. Let's hope he can keep that up.

But as impressive as he has been on defense, he has equally terrible on offense. His ORtg of 89 resembles Jaden's, and trails such offensive stalwarts as Vando and JO. And his TS% of 45.5% trails everyone on the roster in the rotation except for offensively-challenged JO, Prince and JMac. He's the second most prolific shooter on the team with almost 20 shots a game, so we all know his horrible efficiency is one of the most important factors in our poor start. We lost to the Clippers twice because they are better than us, not because we were missing a player with a 45.5 TS%.

FNG wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:With D-Lo: 3-2

Without D-Lo: 0-3

I'm not saying he's played great. He's been uncharacteristically bad shooting the basketball. He's had careless turnovers. I get all of that. What he does do is cause more problems for opposing defenses. He does create shots for others while also creating makeable shots for himself. He also has a propensity to make big shots in a time of need -- and I'm not just talking about end of game situations.

This team is severely missing him right now. Anthony Edwards noted it tonight after the game. The shots haven't been falling, but just the threat of D-Lo scoring is a weapon. The Wolves don't have that right now with Patrick Beverley and Jordan McLaughlin sharing point guard duties. Hopefully, D-Lo returns on Monday and provides a calming presence to the team and finds his stroke from range while maintaining the very solid defense he's shown early in the season. Lord knows this team needs a shot in the arm any way they can get it.

With all due respect - post less

I'm confused in what way was Cams post a bad one?

I'm not going to speak for Cool, kek, but I suspect it was the lack of context in Cam's opening stat. Yes, we are 0-2 in games DLo hasn't played in, and 3-3 in games he has. But you have to consider the teams we were playing against. The teams he played against are currently 10-33, and I think most of us would conclude a 3-3 record with almost all home games against injured bottom feeding teams is not very impressive. In contrast, we lost two games against the Clippers with DLo sitting out. The Clippers are 4-4...not great, but certainly better than the absurdly bad 10-33 record of the teams in our first 6 games. Context matters.

I believe I was the first person to point out DLo's improved defense, and I continue to point it out in every game summary. And the stats support the eye chart...it's only been 6 games, but his impact on defense is completely different than anything we have ever seen from him, and it has made a difference. The Wolves give up 22.8 fewer points per 100 when DLo is on the court rather than off, an impact similar to what JO has brought. Let's hope he can keep that up.

But as impressive as he has been on defense, he has equally terrible on offense. His ORtg of 89 resembles Jaden's, and trails such offensive stalwarts as Vando and JO. And his TS% of 45.5% trails everyone on the roster in the rotation except for offensively-challenged JO, Prince and JMac. He's the second most prolific shooter on the team with almost 20 shots a game, so we all know his horrible efficiency is one of the most important factors in our poor start. We lost to the Clippers twice because they are better than us, not because we were missing a player with a 45.5 TS%.

I'm confused. From a guy who loves Ricky because of his plus minus. Shouldn't Dlo help when he is 2nd on the team in +/- (83rd percentile) only behind mcdaniels. Wolves are 16-13 (14 if you count the magic game) when Dlo and Kat play together and 10-42 when one of them miss a game (this is a big issue)

I don't think Dlo fixes the issues at all but to say he doesn't make a difference to this team in my opinion is wrong (Once again i don't think dlo is amazing)

kekgeek1 wrote:

FNG wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:With D-Lo: 3-2

Without D-Lo: 0-3

I'm not saying he's played great. He's been uncharacteristically bad shooting the basketball. He's had careless turnovers. I get all of that. What he does do is cause more problems for opposing defenses. He does create shots for others while also creating makeable shots for himself. He also has a propensity to make big shots in a time of need -- and I'm not just talking about end of game situations.

This team is severely missing him right now. Anthony Edwards noted it tonight after the game. The shots haven't been falling, but just the threat of D-Lo scoring is a weapon. The Wolves don't have that right now with Patrick Beverley and Jordan McLaughlin sharing point guard duties. Hopefully, D-Lo returns on Monday and provides a calming presence to the team and finds his stroke from range while maintaining the very solid defense he's shown early in the season. Lord knows this team needs a shot in the arm any way they can get it.

With all due respect - post less

I'm confused in what way was Cams post a bad one?

I'm not going to speak for Cool, kek, but I suspect it was the lack of context in Cam's opening stat. Yes, we are 0-2 in games DLo hasn't played in, and 3-3 in games he has. But you have to consider the teams we were playing against. The teams he played against are currently 10-33, and I think most of us would conclude a 3-3 record with almost all home games against injured bottom feeding teams is not very impressive. In contrast, we lost two games against the Clippers with DLo sitting out. The Clippers are 4-4...not great, but certainly better than the absurdly bad 10-33 record of the teams in our first 6 games. Context matters.

I believe I was the first person to point out DLo's improved defense, and I continue to point it out in every game summary. And the stats support the eye chart...it's only been 6 games, but his impact on defense is completely different than anything we have ever seen from him, and it has made a difference. The Wolves give up 22.8 fewer points per 100 when DLo is on the court rather than off, an impact similar to what JO has brought. Let's hope he can keep that up.

But as impressive as he has been on defense, he has equally terrible on offense. His ORtg of 89 resembles Jaden's, and trails such offensive stalwarts as Vando and JO. And his TS% of 45.5% trails everyone on the roster in the rotation except for offensively-challenged JO, Prince and JMac. He's the second most prolific shooter on the team with almost 20 shots a game, so we all know his horrible efficiency is one of the most important factors in our poor start. We lost to the Clippers twice because they are better than us, not because we were missing a player with a 45.5 TS%.

I'm confused. From a guy who loves Ricky because of his plus minus. Shouldn't Dlo help when he is 2nd on the team in +/- (83rd percentile) only behind mcdaniels. Wolves are 16-13 (14 if you count the magic game) when Dlo and Kat play together and 10-42 when one of them miss a game (this is a big issue)

I don't think Dlo fixes the issues at all but to say he doesn't make a difference to this team in my opinion is wrong (Once again i don't think dlo is amazing)

No, I agree...DLo is a completely different player this season, and I believe for the first time in his career, actually is having a positive impact on his team from an on/off standpoint. Terrific to see, and let's hope he can keep it up. But I still don't think we beat the Clippers in either game if DLo were healthy...I just see a big difference between the two teams, and I don't see DLo as impactful enough to erase the 31 point deficit we had in the two games.

We're only 7 games in, and the mood on this board has changed 180 degrees over ten days. I was concerned that expectations were way too high after some meaningless wins against some bottom feeders, because they still looked like a 35-win team to me. I was hoping for improvement, and I think we have seen it at least on the defensive end, and except for last night (which I didn't see and probably won't), they have been entertaining to watch. 35 wins, energy, and better defense is how I define success this season, because I just don't see a team with $60 million tied up in KAT and DLo having much success. KAT looks great statistically, but we all know there is something intangible missing there. And despite his positive 6-game start this season, DLo has a 6-year record that tells me he is not a long-term winning option for us. Others may disagree, but that's how I see it. My long-term hope is that Ant can develop into the high-performing guy he could be, and that Gupta can engineer some trades that bring back winning talent in exchange for two max guys who have never been successful.

I love when the plus-minus and net rating fanboys abandon their favorite stats. Something about that makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. If D'Angelo Russell wore the number nine jersey and had "Rubio" on his back (or basically any other name) there would be a much different tune here -- even with the uncharacteristically bad shooting. Oh, well. What can you say? Just another day on the Enjin board.

Camden wrote:

KG4Ever wrote:

Camden wrote:Still way too early in the season with way too many games left on the schedule for me to echo the current sentiment of the board, but this roster needs to reach back to whatever motivation they had leaving training camp because that team played much better basketball than the team we've watched the last week. Also, laugh all you want, but they are missing D'Angelo Russell in a very bad way right now. Even just the threat of him scoring the basketball opens up the floor for other guys let alone the desperate need of another ball-handler and shot-creator. It's been a much worse team without him.

Well, the Wolves traded Rubio away so yes they miss DLO as the Wolves don't have many other guys that can pass, but perhaps they miss Rubio as much as DLO. After all, a terrible Cleveland team from last year is now 6-4 with Rubio aboard. Say what you want about Ricky's shooting but the offensive is energized when he's playing and his plus minus numbers are good.

Is that Cleveland team 6-4 because of Ricky Rubio or is he along for the ride? There are some very talented young players on that Cavs team that are driving the bus, so to speak. Also, it's not like the guy has an extensive history of being a winner or a culture setter. Rubio orchestrates the offense well, plays hard on defense, and misses over 60-percent of his shots. He's been doing that his entire career. It's just up for debate how much he actually contributes to winning with that style. Minnesota watched him lose here for about a decade. While those losses aren't solely his responsibility, I think it's fair to say that we've seen enough of him to know that he's not that much of a difference-maker.

Well, while I agree that there's not only one player on the Cavs who is making a big difference (potential ROY Evan Mobley has certainly had a big impact), there are stats that indicate Ricky is a difference maker. I know you're not a fan of off/on stats but the fact of the matter is you have to outscore your opponent to win. And despite generally playing with backups, Ricky currently leads the Cavs with a plus 11.9. He seems to be the same player he's always been...a poor shooter who always shows up well in on/off because of his distribution, lack of turnovers, and team defense. Gupta blundered badly when he traded him for Prince, because it sure would have been nice to have either Ricky or DLo (or both) in the past three games. The hope that Prince has played poorly in the past because of injuries was a pipe dream.

kekgeek1 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:With D-Lo: 3-2

Without D-Lo: 0-3

I'm not saying he's played great. He's been uncharacteristically bad shooting the basketball. He's had careless turnovers. I get all of that. What he does do is cause more problems for opposing defenses. He does create shots for others while also creating makeable shots for himself. He also has a propensity to make big shots in a time of need -- and I'm not just talking about end of game situations.

This team is severely missing him right now. Anthony Edwards noted it tonight after the game. The shots haven't been falling, but just the threat of D-Lo scoring is a weapon. The Wolves don't have that right now with Patrick Beverley and Jordan McLaughlin sharing point guard duties. Hopefully, D-Lo returns on Monday and provides a calming presence to the team and finds his stroke from range while maintaining the very solid defense he's shown early in the season. Lord knows this team needs a shot in the arm any way they can get it.

With all due respect - post less

I'm confused in what way was Cams post a bad one?

It wasn't, it's just a broken record. DLO radio, all DLO all the time.

I read through all of the posts after watching the game. Abe nailed it. There is not much to discuss.

KAT is extremely talented offensively, but he is clueless on defense. I do not think that ever changes. I would look to dump Towns and Dlo for the best offer tomorrow. This is never going to work, but there are some exciting pieces that we can reconstruct around. Ones that are not entitled.

I see warriors all over the court. Kat is not one. Neither is Dlo. Build around the actual superstar and hope for the best. Again.

Camden wrote:I love when the plus-minus and net rating fanboys abandon their favorite stats. Something about that makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside. If D'Angelo Russell wore the number nine jersey and had "Rubio" on his back (or basically any other name) there would be a much different tune here -- even with the uncharacteristically bad shooting. Oh, well. What can you say? Just another day on the Enjin board.

This post is confusing to me since I am perhaps the biggest proponent of on/off stats here, and in the post directly above I point out that DLo's improved defense is helping him actually have a positive impact by this stat for one of the few times in his career...and I've mentioned that fact several times in game threads this season, so I don't understand your "different tune" comment. Unfortunately, his net rating currently stands at a career worst -18 (ORtg 89, but DRtg a career best 107) because of his poor shooting, so he's a mixed bag this year statistically. Those of us who employ a variety of stats to evaluate a player's value to a team consistently say that on/off stats and net ratings are merely two measures that we use, but you completely dismiss these two measures and persist with a false narrative that there are posters here who rely on only them...that's just not true. I'm not sure why you dismiss net rating and on/off stats, but I have a feeling your thoughts about them have a lot to do with the fact that DLo almost always ranks in the 4th quartile of the league by these measures.

I also think you ignore it when on/off proponents here consistently say sample size needs to be considered when evaluating any stat. If someone were to evaluate Corey Brewer just based on his 4-11-21 performance, they would conclude that he was a 51 PPG scorer on with 63% shooting. Obviously that sample size would be inadequate. It's fair to conclude that Corey had a great game that night, but it's not enough to form any conclusions about his career. But that's where I think you miss the point that many of us make when we talk about how poorly DLo performs in on/off stats and net rating. He may occasionally have a very bad game, and he may occasionally have a very good game. But the point we are making is that he ranks near the bottom of the league in net rating and on/off...every season of his career except one! That is notable, and to ignore those statistics merely because you like a player seems disingenuous to me. I have always enjoyed Ricky Rubio's game, but it would be disingenuous of me to try to defend his shooting stats just because I like his overall game.

So continue to ignore net ratings and on/off when they are brought up if you choose...that's your prerogative. But frankly your occasional snarky disdain for those of us who see the value in those stats gets a little tiresome.

FNG, this is pure comedy at this point. Not only did you spend time writing that "gotcha" toned rebuttal, but you didn't even give the accurate numbers in statistics that you typically drool over.

You said D'Angelo Russel has a negative net rating this season... Well, no he doesn't. His net rating of 8.8 ranks third on the team even with his poor shooting percentages. The team is 21.4 points better with Russell on the floor than when he's off. Oh, and he has a traditional plus-minus of 5.4. These are all positive numbers in statistics that you and others here value heavily.

This is what I was talking about. We watched Ricky Rubio shoot 30-percent from the floor for years only to be represented well in these kinds of metrics and get absolutely fawned over. Why shouldn't Russell get that same level of appreciation from the plus-minus fanboys? Or is it because of something else... Hmm.

Anyways, I was being a smartass in previous posts in this thread. Apparently, those comments struck a nerve a day later. All good. I'm looking forward to tomorrow night's game.