Minnesota Sports Forum

WolvesFan21 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

WolvesFan21 wrote:If I am Glen Taylor I fire Thibs but only after talking to KAT and Butler (who I assume would be on board). Unless you can convince me that a team with two All Stars should have been as bad as they were in defense and an 8th seed. What team with 2 All Stars finished worse then the Wolves?

My feeling is that they underachieved. So, either me and a ton other people are overrating the talent or maybe the other side is right. Thibs is great and the players are just mediocre.

What makes you think Butler would want Thibs fired?

What was the defense rated? With the additions of Taj and Butler they didn't get better really, the same constant is Thibs KAT and Wiggins. I don't blame everything on KAT and Wiggins. Wiggins is an avg defender I think, while KAt below avg.

I don't see the Wolves on a path right now to winning a championship, thus I would fire Thibs and I think Butler would agree. The reason to ask the players is obvious, you need them to sign extensions, so they should be involved in that decision.

If Butler or KAT wanted t keep Thibs and think they will win it all with him, then I stay the course.

Well every report that's come out even the comments from Butler's agent da Butler supports Thibs. His complaint isn't with Thibs it's with young guys not performing.

Q12543 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:Don't underestimate continuity in professional sports. We made major changes last year. If we keep making major changes every summer we'll never have the continuity that breeds consistency. A major reason we stayed in the dumps for 14 years were the wholesale changes that kept happening from the GM to the coach to the players. We should look to add to what we did last year and not try to move the furniture or subtract because keeping the coach and the roster largely in place is gonna be more beneficial than selling role players at their peak for other role players. Unless you can add a legitimate all-star to make this team better then stay the course and there will be natural improvement from just playing together more.

I guess it depends on how you define major changes. Boston, Utah, and Philly all have at least 4 or 5 new guys in their playoff rotation versus last season. I consider that pretty major.

Thibs the POBO needs to make some changes. This team doesn't quite fit together the way it's currently constructed. I could easily see a scenario where up to three or four of our regular rotation guys get swapped out.

It sure helps that some/all of these teams have coaches and or GMs that have been there long enough to have something to actually build on.

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:I see two options. Continue the "all-in" approach that has already been started by hiring Tom Thibodeau, trading young players and assets for Jimmy Butler, signing Jeff Teague and Taj Gibson, OR go half rebuild by firing Thibs, hiring someone more devoted to player development and incremental success (Tony Bennett, Brent Barry, Jay Wright, and Ryan Saunders would be my candidates), dealing veterans Taj Gibson and Jeff Teague to playoff contending teams in need of a starting caliber plugin in hopes of getting back expirings and a first-round pick or two, and trading Jimmy Butler for a top-eight pick in this year's draft, a future pick, and a useful role player or two -- Cleveland would potentially be the perfect trade partner for this as they showed real interest in Butler last summer and could offer Brooklyn's first-round pick in 2018, Cleveland's first-round pick in 2020, Larry Nance Jr., and Jordan Clarkson.

If you choose the former, as I'm sure most Wolves fans would, then you can't be afraid to spend money this off-season or be afraid to trade Andrew Wiggins. We must get better in a plethora of areas.

If you choose the latter, you're potentially a lottery team once again or fighting for the eighth-seed at very best for the next couple of seasons, but you might have salvaged your long-term window. You also probably lose a significant portion of credibility around the league as well as within your own fan base.

You laid out lots of good stuff here Cam. Worthwhile question IMO...does one of those top college coaches make a jump to the NBA if the franchise that's hiring them is going to sell off the vet players?

Also does any up and coming coach want to come here and when we fire thibs after our best season in 14 years

They might if it means the expectations are re-set and the starting point is KAT, with a bundle of picks, expiring contracts, etc. They'd have a couple years before winning would be expected.

That being said, I'm not for Cam's "Choice B". I prefer we keep our current core together, but I define that as KAT, Butler, and Gibson. That doesn't mean everyone else gets traded, but I really think some combination of Teague/Wiggins/Dieng needs to go if we can get the right value back and it means a more complimentary player on our roster.

I think that is fair. I'm cool with trading Wiggins if we get a borderline all star back. Young guy would be preferred.

In general I don't see the wolves being a super attractive job. If we fire thibs after the wolves best season in 14 years. A angry butler on a contract year. And if we trade all of those pieces does Kat really want to go through a rebuild again. Also what player would want to come here after the wolves 1st above 500 year in 14 years and they just blow it up right away.

Think this all needs to be in consideration if we are looking to fire thibs

kekgeek1 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:I see two options. Continue the "all-in" approach that has already been started by hiring Tom Thibodeau, trading young players and assets for Jimmy Butler, signing Jeff Teague and Taj Gibson, OR go half rebuild by firing Thibs, hiring someone more devoted to player development and incremental success (Tony Bennett, Brent Barry, Jay Wright, and Ryan Saunders would be my candidates), dealing veterans Taj Gibson and Jeff Teague to playoff contending teams in need of a starting caliber plugin in hopes of getting back expirings and a first-round pick or two, and trading Jimmy Butler for a top-eight pick in this year's draft, a future pick, and a useful role player or two -- Cleveland would potentially be the perfect trade partner for this as they showed real interest in Butler last summer and could offer Brooklyn's first-round pick in 2018, Cleveland's first-round pick in 2020, Larry Nance Jr., and Jordan Clarkson.

If you choose the former, as I'm sure most Wolves fans would, then you can't be afraid to spend money this off-season or be afraid to trade Andrew Wiggins. We must get better in a plethora of areas.

If you choose the latter, you're potentially a lottery team once again or fighting for the eighth-seed at very best for the next couple of seasons, but you might have salvaged your long-term window. You also probably lose a significant portion of credibility around the league as well as within your own fan base.

You laid out lots of good stuff here Cam. Worthwhile question IMO...does one of those top college coaches make a jump to the NBA if the franchise that's hiring them is going to sell off the vet players?

Also does any up and coming coach want to come here and when we fire thibs after our best season in 14 years

They might if it means the expectations are re-set and the starting point is KAT, with a bundle of picks, expiring contracts, etc. They'd have a couple years before winning would be expected.

That being said, I'm not for Cam's "Choice B". I prefer we keep our current core together, but I define that as KAT, Butler, and Gibson. That doesn't mean everyone else gets traded, but I really think some combination of Teague/Wiggins/Dieng needs to go if we can get the right value back and it means a more complimentary player on our roster.

I think that is fair. I'm cool with trading Wiggins if we get a borderline all star back. Young guy would be preferred.

In general I don't see the wolves being a super attractive job. If we fire thibs after the wolves best season in 14 years. A angry butler on a contract year. And if we trade all of those pieces does Kat really want to go through a rebuild again. Also what player would want to come here after the wolves 1st above 500 year in 14 years and they just blow it up right away.

Think this all needs to be in consideration if we are looking to fire thibs

Great point. It would be a completely amateur business move.... so maybe Taylor will do it. Honestly firing Thibs would pretty much ensure we would be back in the dark ages and have to move the team.

kekgeek1 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:

Camden0916 wrote:I see two options. Continue the "all-in" approach that has already been started by hiring Tom Thibodeau, trading young players and assets for Jimmy Butler, signing Jeff Teague and Taj Gibson, OR go half rebuild by firing Thibs, hiring someone more devoted to player development and incremental success (Tony Bennett, Brent Barry, Jay Wright, and Ryan Saunders would be my candidates), dealing veterans Taj Gibson and Jeff Teague to playoff contending teams in need of a starting caliber plugin in hopes of getting back expirings and a first-round pick or two, and trading Jimmy Butler for a top-eight pick in this year's draft, a future pick, and a useful role player or two -- Cleveland would potentially be the perfect trade partner for this as they showed real interest in Butler last summer and could offer Brooklyn's first-round pick in 2018, Cleveland's first-round pick in 2020, Larry Nance Jr., and Jordan Clarkson.

If you choose the former, as I'm sure most Wolves fans would, then you can't be afraid to spend money this off-season or be afraid to trade Andrew Wiggins. We must get better in a plethora of areas.

If you choose the latter, you're potentially a lottery team once again or fighting for the eighth-seed at very best for the next couple of seasons, but you might have salvaged your long-term window. You also probably lose a significant portion of credibility around the league as well as within your own fan base.

You laid out lots of good stuff here Cam. Worthwhile question IMO...does one of those top college coaches make a jump to the NBA if the franchise that's hiring them is going to sell off the vet players?

Also does any up and coming coach want to come here and when we fire thibs after our best season in 14 years

They might if it means the expectations are re-set and the starting point is KAT, with a bundle of picks, expiring contracts, etc. They'd have a couple years before winning would be expected.

That being said, I'm not for Cam's "Choice B". I prefer we keep our current core together, but I define that as KAT, Butler, and Gibson. That doesn't mean everyone else gets traded, but I really think some combination of Teague/Wiggins/Dieng needs to go if we can get the right value back and it means a more complimentary player on our roster.

I think that is fair. I'm cool with trading Wiggins if we get a borderline all star back. Young guy would be preferred.

In general I don't see the wolves being a super attractive job. If we fire thibs after the wolves best season in 14 years. A angry butler on a contract year. And if we trade all of those pieces does Kat really want to go through a rebuild again. Also what player would want to come here after the wolves 1st above 500 year in 14 years and they just blow it up right away.

Think this all needs to be in consideration if we are looking to fire thibs

Geek -- As I think about it, I'm persuaded you're right. We have to let this thing play out at least another season with Thibodeau.

There's a lot we don't know other than the fact that Butler really likes Thibodeau. We have no idea what KAT and the others think of him. The most important priority this summer for this franchise over the long term is signing KAT to the max extension. It's critical that we lock him up this summer. Unless KAT really dislikes Thibodeau, I think he'd probably prefer to keep our current coaching staff and build on what we did last season. Blowing things up this summer might make KAT reluctant to commit here long term.

Why do I consider extending KAT this summer our top priority? Because he is the center of both of Cam's alternatives -- the short term and long term strategies. In the short term, KAT's our only allstar other than Butler. Those two are our keys to making the playoffs again next season. In the longer term, KAT is our one young player around whom we can retool in the event we part company with Butler and Taj after next season.

So as much as I don't like Thibodeau as a head coach, I'd opt for Cam's plan A. As Cam said, that means we can't be afraid to spend money. The problem, however, is that the salary cap won't allow us to spend much. We're pretty much limited to re-signing Belly and then relying on a limited portion of the MLE, the vet minimum and our two draft picks to supplement the roster. So Cam's point about being willing to trade Wiggins is an important one. I'd be reluctant to deal him, but I'd quietly make some inquiries. If we're lucky, maybe we'll find a team willing to give us good value for Gorgui or Jeff Teague. And as I indicated, I'd be willing to trade Taj for the right return as well if we're going to take Cam's all-in approach. Taj was terrific this past season, but Butler's the key to our success last season.

My fork in the road would be next February's trade deadline. If we're struggling to just make the playoffs at that point and kind of floundering, then I'd be inclined to blow things up by firing Thibodeau and also dealing Butler, Teague and anyone not named KAT for draft picks. But all that would depend on the team's atmosphere and trajectory at the time. I suspect we'll have a good feel for this team's prospects, both short and long term, by next February. If we build on last season through some smart personnel moves this summer, some adjustments by Thibodeau, and significant improvement from KAT and Wiggins, then assuming good health the Wolves should be on the road to a 52+ win season. In spite of my doubts about Thibodeau, I can't see blowing things up this summer. I think we really need to see this thing through for at least another 8 months.

If it were only between Cam's A and B, I would also choose A. The roster isn't perfect and needs a little tweaking, but it's still very good and should not be blown up. But I would modify choice A to include replacing the head coach. I would love to see what success this talented roster could have under a dynamic young coach who coaches a defense that encourages the long 2 instead of 3's and layups and plays his starters more reasonable minutes. Don't think it's going to happen, but that is my dream.

I've been saying for a while that I think the ideal is that Thibs eventually goes full time President and hands the coaching over to Ryan. Hope it happens at some point. When the fundamentals are as flawed as we have seen with our young players I think a psycho is good to help address those things. Once they're showing promise in those areas hopefully Thibs starts getting creative with offense, just like Pop eventually did with those San Antonio teams.

thedoper wrote:I've been saying for a while that I think the ideal is that Thibs eventually goes full time President and hands the coaching over to Ryan. Hope it happens at some point. When the fundamentals are as flawed as we have seen with our young players I think a psycho is good to help address those things. Once they're showing promise in those areas hopefully Thibs starts getting creative with offense, just like Pop eventually did with those San Antonio teams.

No idea why Ryan Saunders would be on anybody's short list of top coaching candidates.

No offense to him... but there are a lot of coaches out there who put in more time... and may have a better resume than provinicialism to get the gig.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:I've been saying for a while that I think the ideal is that Thibs eventually goes full time President and hands the coaching over to Ryan. Hope it happens at some point. When the fundamentals are as flawed as we have seen with our young players I think a psycho is good to help address those things. Once they're showing promise in those areas hopefully Thibs starts getting creative with offense, just like Pop eventually did with those San Antonio teams.

No idea why Ryan Saunders would be on anybody's short list of top coaching candidates.

No offense to him... but there are a lot of coaches out there who put in more time... and may have a better resume than provinicialism to get the gig.

I think it's clear he gets along with the players great and has been tapped for a while with skill development. This would be the type of play I would be interested in, someone young and creative. In my mind he seems to fit that bill with the way he communicates to the media. Doesn't have to be him. But I think the good cop, bad cop relationship is good for team sports. Ryan seems to fit that good cop role. If that was the hire it would be clear that it was Thibs judgement in his x and o's basketball ability. But after the history of nepotism in this franchise I get your hesitation.

thedoper wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:I've been saying for a while that I think the ideal is that Thibs eventually goes full time President and hands the coaching over to Ryan. Hope it happens at some point. When the fundamentals are as flawed as we have seen with our young players I think a psycho is good to help address those things. Once they're showing promise in those areas hopefully Thibs starts getting creative with offense, just like Pop eventually did with those San Antonio teams.

No idea why Ryan Saunders would be on anybody's short list of top coaching candidates.

No offense to him... but there are a lot of coaches out there who put in more time... and may have a better resume than provinicialism to get the gig.

I think it's clear he gets along with the players great and has been tapped for a while with skill development. This would be the type of play I would be interested in, someone young and creative. In my mind he seems to fit that bill with the way he communicates to the media. Doesn't have to be him. But I think the good cop, bad cop relationship is good for team sports. Ryan seems to fit that good cop role. If that was the hire it would be clear that it was Thibs judgement in his x and o's basketball ability. But after the history of nepotism in this franchise I get your hesitation.

Regardless of who eventually succeeds Thibs as coach, I just have a hard time seeing him in a front office role. I think he eventually gets fired from both roles, perhaps as soon as next summer, then flames out as a head coach with one or two other stops before going back to his roots as a defensive assistant coach.