Minnesota Sports Forum

Mr. Brightside wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Mr. Brightside wrote:No thanks on Ibaka. All advanced statistics show he does not make his teams better. And for $25 million? Nope.

To be fair, Ibaka has never finished a season on a team below .500. And he's started virtually his entire career. We can search for stats to suggest he has nothing to do with that... and probably find some to support that narrative. But we might be pushing a confirmation bias with that search.

"Take that for data!"

To be fair, he's played with some great players. Felton Spencer would have been on all .500 or better teams under the same circumstances.

Ummm. No.

I don't know what else to tell you. We seem to be very very far apart on this... and I'm not even advocating bringing in Ibaka to the Wolves.

Really? Westbrook and Durant wouldn't have gotten OKC above .500 without Ibaka? Toronto with Lowry and Derozan would be under .500 without Ibaka? Please explain.

Wait. I think we're just disconnecting here. I'm talking specifically about the comment that he's essentially Felton Spencer out there. No. He's not. Not even close.

Ibaka isn't just a guy on a .500 team. He was a starter on teams that won at a 55 - 60-win pace (.700) FIVE times in 7 seasons. They won "only" 50 games when Ibaka was a rookie coming off the bench. And they won "only" 45 games in a season where Durant missed 65 games. Westbrook missed 15 games. And Ibaka missed 18 games.

No, I'm definitely not saying he was Felton Spencer. I'm saying that players with far less talent than Ibaka could have been .500 on those teams. Ibaka, while a certain contributor, isn't the reason those teams were at least .500.

Ok. Now that we that settled...

My point stands for Mr. Brightside who claimed Ibaka hasn't made his teams better. I disagree entirely with that. A 3rd or even 4th option who doesn't need the ball much... plays good pick-and-roll defense... leads the league in blocks... hits between 47% - 57% of his shots... etc. That guy has value. That guy helps good teams be good or even great.

Ibaka absolutely provides value. However, he's clearly on the downslope of his career when looking at the numbers. So for $25 million a year, I don't want him.

His blocked shots rate has decreased every year since the 11-12 season. He's not an elite rebounder and never has been. He had a career year shooting the ball from deep this year and has developed into an above average to very good shooter. His offensive rating continues to decline while his defensive rating continues to rise. His win shares continue to drop. His VORP continues to drop.

His usage continues to increase every season and was above 20% this year. I would not consider that someone who "doesn't need the ball much." It's not high usage but it certainly isn't low.

Ibaka is not the same player that was a catalyst when OKC made the finals. He's not even OKC Ibaka. He's a nice player who would potentially be a nice fit. But I would not be comfortable paying a guy $25 million a year who clearly peaked 4-5 seasons ago. If I'm paying $25 million, I want a guy who would give the Wolves a huge boost. A guy who is elite at at least 1-2 areas. Ibaka was that guy at one point. He isn't now.

Neither would I... as I wrote. I don't know if anybody here is willing to pay him $25M.

ALL of my Ibaka apologist stuff in this thread centered around (1) claims he adds no value to a team. (2) is basically Felton Spencer. We all know he adds value... even with a diminishing return. At what cost is the question...

Personally, I might give him $25M for each year in a 2-year contract. But that largely depends on other factors about who's out there and at what cost. It's not like the Wolves/Taylor can't afford it and it wouldn't hurt down the line. He can play defense, both at the rim and in the PnR. And he can space the floor offensively... in fact, statistically, he'd be the Wolves best three point shooter. 39.1% on 4.0 attempts this season.

Anything more than that... and the team would be overpaying for a player on the wrong slope that could impact keeping young players with more promise down the line.


[RIDICULOUS STATS: Don't count on Ibaka to help with moving the ball. And don't be fooled by his 6 assists in Game 2 of the playoffs on Tuesday. That was a career high. He's so against passing... he's only reached 5 assists one other time. He's only reached 4 assists 8 times in 694 games. He's never averaged above 1.0 assists per game in a season.]

One thing to consider about Ibaka was that supposedly one reason OKC was willing to deal him last offseason was he wanted a larger role as an offensive player along with a big contract. I don't know if he still feels that way (assuming that's the reports were true) after the way his season played out.

I think we should position ourselves as the team that will take on someone else's contract and get something for it. Hopefully t is an expiring and someone we can salvage. Maybe like how we had to give a first to trade Wes Johnson away. It would be awesome if we could pull a Khan and get a AK47 type player this offseason. He was a player that really transformed a team.

FWIW on Wolfson's last podcast he said from what he has heard a few guys would come to the Wolves if they get better $ offers than other places.

T Gibson (loves Thibs obviously but preference is to stay in OKC)
JJ Redick
Patrick Patterson
Ugh now I can't remember but I think there was a 4th solid player.

He also said when Thibs and Layden met with Bazz for his exit interviews they indicated they would really like him back and see him as a piece of the future and they value him. Wolfson said the Nets are a team he could see offering him a big deal that would really test that which is obvious speculation.

He is having David Thorpe on his next podcast and he said Thorpe said the Wolves ran a college offense this year without creatively. Should be interesting to here what he has to say.

I would take all 3 of them, nice to see we get our championship culture discount lol

monsterpile wrote:FWIW on Wolfson's last podcast he said from what he has heard a few guys would come to the Wolves if they get better $ offers than other places.

T Gibson (loves Thibs obviously but preference is to stay in OKC)
JJ Redick
Patrick Patterson
Ugh now I can't remember but I think there was a 4th solid player.

He also said when Thibs and Layden met with Bazz for his exit interviews they indicated they would really like him back and see him as a piece of the future and they value him. Wolfson said the Nets are a team he could see offering him a big deal that would really test that which is obvious speculation.

He is having David Thorpe on his next podcast and he said Thorpe said the Wolves ran a college offense this year without creatively. Should be interesting to here what he has to say.

I'm not surprised by Thorpe's comment. Thibs has a long-standing reputation for running a pedestrian offense. That's another reason I didn't think he was the best choice for our team. The best coaches adapt to the players they have. We have a young potentially high-scoring roster. In my view, the best approach for the Wolves would be a creative, high-speed offense that turns our young guys loose like D'Antoni has done in Houston and did years ago in Phoenix. Yes, the defense needs to get better, but an effective, high-scoring offense would actually help our defense by putting pressure on the other team while also allowing us to outscore other teams in what is generally a high-scoring League.

lipoli390 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:FWIW on Wolfson's last podcast he said from what he has heard a few guys would come to the Wolves if they get better $ offers than other places.

T Gibson (loves Thibs obviously but preference is to stay in OKC)
JJ Redick
Patrick Patterson
Ugh now I can't remember but I think there was a 4th solid player.

He also said when Thibs and Layden met with Bazz for his exit interviews they indicated they would really like him back and see him as a piece of the future and they value him. Wolfson said the Nets are a team he could see offering him a big deal that would really test that which is obvious speculation.

He is having David Thorpe on his next podcast and he said Thorpe said the Wolves ran a college offense this year without creatively. Should be interesting to here what he has to say.

I'm not surprised by Thorpe's comment. Thibs has a long-standing reputation for running a pedestrian offense. That's another reason I didn't think he was the best choice for our team. The best coaches adapt to the players they have. We have a young potentially high-scoring roster. In my view, the best approach for the Wolves would be a creative, high-speed offense that turns our young guys loose like D'Antoni has done in Houston and did years ago in Phoenix. Yes, the defense needs to get better, but an effective, high-scoring offense would actually help our defense by putting pressure on the other team while also allowing us to outscore other teams in what is generally a high-scoring League.

Lip plenty of smart basketball folks said Thibs was a pretty good as an offensive coach in Chicago. I do think there was absolutely times the offense wasn't what we wanted. Let's remember a number of these guys are young players that can play in isolation and especially with Lavine and Bjelica out of the picture that really hurts the idea of moving the ball etc because there are so few shooters on the floor. Also a bunch of these guys have been yelled at by both Thibs and Sam in consecutive years especially early on to push the ball and...they haven't done it much less doing what they are supposed to do on offense and...the backup PGs now have 2.5 years of experience between them. This roster isn't build to be a Sun or Houston team there just isn't enough shooting. Towns scored more points in the paint than anyone this year and it's hard to complain about that. The offense needs to get better and I agree Thibs may need to make some adjustments there. The way he started using Rubio differently as the season went on seems to show he is willing to do just that.

Monster -- I haven't heard many voices praising Thibs' offensive coaching. My friend whose been a long-standing Bulls season ticket holder used to complain about Thibs' offense and said that was a common complain among local basketball analysts in Chicago. One of my friend's biggest complains was the fact that Thibs dictates nearly every offensive possession from the bench, barking out every play and directing players on the floor. I heard him doing that this season. I'll be interested in hearing exactly what Thorpe said, but I respect his opinion. He's a very good basketball mind. What I saw a lot this past season was Thibs designing Wiggins isolation plays in crunch time and I complained about it repeatedly as you know throughout the season.

I'm not saying Thibs is the worst offensive coach in the NBA or completely exonerating the players. And I recognize the need for more shooters. But I think it's clear that Thibs needs to adapt and improve his coaching on the offensive side of the ball. I really think he should swallow his ego a bit and bring in an offensive guru as an assistant to run the offense. And he needs to turn his players loose and allow them to react and adapt without constant control of their every move dictated from the bench.

Yes, we need to add another 3-point marksman to the roster. But we already have two very good three-point shooters in Zach and Towns. Wiggins improved his three-point shooting this season and needs to continue improving in that area. I like that Thibs expects Ricky to improve in that areas as well. Wiggins' continued improvement coupled with the addition of better three-point shooting from Ricky and the addition of a three-point marksman like Redick would go a long way towards improving our offensive production. But I'd still like to see Thibs add someone to his coaching staff who can take over the offense.

Rumour has it Nets are looking to sign Bazz and I'd say they're prepared to over pay. As much as I like Bazz I think the Nets is a good fit for him and he would probably get a starting role there. Maybe a sign and trade? Although not a whole lot appealing on that Nets roster!

KiwiMatt wrote:Rumour has it Nets are looking to sign Bazz and I'd say they're prepared to over pay. As much as I like Bazz I think the Nets is a good fit for him and he would probably get a starting role there. Maybe a sign and trade? Although not a whole lot appealing on that Nets roster!

Nets have cap space they don't need to do a sign and trade.

Also I have been saying the Nets will be a pain in the ass for the wolves these next 2 offseasons, with their ability to take chances on young players when they don't have any picks. They did it with Tyler johnson and Crabbe last year and they are setting up to do it with Bazz and Lavine (max) next year