Minnesota Sports Forum

Camden wrote:What pecking order? We have a 39-year old Kevin Garnett, a 22-year old Anthony Bennett and a 24-year old Adreian Payne. Bennett and Payne are barely worth rostering at this point let alone being productive off the bench and Garnett's got a 20-minute limit every night, not to mention his ineptitude to play anywhere near 82 games a season.

Enter Nemanja Bjelica, a 26-year old "do-it-all" forward who's coming off a 2014-15 campaign where he averaged 11.6 PPG, 8.2 RPG, 1.8 APG and 1 SPG while shooting 54.4% from the field, 40.4% from three (with 1.0 3PM per game) and 71.4% from the free throw line. This all in 25.9 MPG. The guy's 6'10", 235 lbs and clearly skilled.

I'm not saying Bjelica's gonna be a transformational talent with multiple All-Star nods in the future, but I do think he's a very worthy player of bringing over and would easily be the best power forward on our team. Not to mention he's a three-point shooter who can stretch the floor, which would actually be a good look next to Towns or Okafor.

I have him pegged as a good basketball player. He's a guy that I'd bring over and pay handsomely (Mirotic contract range) this off-season to do so.

By pecking order, I mean guys Flip went and got to fill the hole at PF instead of just bringing over Bjelica. Going into the season, we had to fill the hole at PF left by Love. Flip didn't consider Bjelica. Instead, he dealt for Thad Young. When Young didn't work out, Flip traded for Payne and later KG. To me, you don't make any of those moves if you feel Bjelica is your future PF.

It's certainly possible that Bjelica could become a decent NBA player. But often times the determining factors of success are "fit" and "situation" vs. strictly talent. It's my opinion that Flip is keeping both Payne and KG since he specifically dealt for both guys. I don't think Bennett will be back, but for now - he's still on the team too. So where would Bjelica "fit" in that scenario? I would think it would just be adding to the mess of unknowns. And while I don't disagree with you about holding roster spots for some guys, I can't see Flip just giving up on Payne and KG so soon after dealing for them. He's going to want to give those guys a chance to prove him right in making those moves. That's why I think Bjelica will be dealt away.

I have downplayed what Bjelica will bring to our team, but I should also add I am in favor of bringing him over. The more BIGs we have, the more likely some of them may pan out! That includes Bennett and Payne, unless one of them can fetch another need, such as backup PG (I'm taking to you, Calderon!).

Carlos Danger wrote:

Camden wrote:What pecking order? We have a 39-year old Kevin Garnett, a 22-year old Anthony Bennett and a 24-year old Adreian Payne. Bennett and Payne are barely worth rostering at this point let alone being productive off the bench and Garnett's got a 20-minute limit every night, not to mention his ineptitude to play anywhere near 82 games a season.

Enter Nemanja Bjelica, a 26-year old "do-it-all" forward who's coming off a 2014-15 campaign where he averaged 11.6 PPG, 8.2 RPG, 1.8 APG and 1 SPG while shooting 54.4% from the field, 40.4% from three (with 1.0 3PM per game) and 71.4% from the free throw line. This all in 25.9 MPG. The guy's 6'10", 235 lbs and clearly skilled.

I'm not saying Bjelica's gonna be a transformational talent with multiple All-Star nods in the future, but I do think he's a very worthy player of bringing over and would easily be the best power forward on our team. Not to mention he's a three-point shooter who can stretch the floor, which would actually be a good look next to Towns or Okafor.

I have him pegged as a good basketball player. He's a guy that I'd bring over and pay handsomely (Mirotic contract range) this off-season to do so.

By pecking order, I mean guys Flip went and got to fill the hole at PF instead of just bringing over Bjelica. Going into the season, we had to fill the hole at PF left by Love. Flip didn't consider Bjelica. Instead, he dealt for Thad Young. When Young didn't work out, Flip traded for Payne and later KG. To me, you don't make any of those moves if you feel Bjelica is your future PF.

It's certainly possible that Bjelica could become a decent NBA player. But often times the determining factors of success are "fit" and "situation" vs. strictly talent. It's my opinion that Flip is keeping both Payne and KG since he specifically dealt for both guys. I don't think Bennett will be back, but for now - he's still on the team too. So where would Bjelica "fit" in that scenario? I would think it would just be adding to the mess of unknowns. And while I don't disagree with you about holding roster spots for some guys, I can't see Flip just giving up on Payne and KG so soon after dealing for them. He's going to want to give those guys a chance to prove him right in making those moves. That's why I think Bjelica will be dealt away.

You can keep Payne, Bennett and Garnett and add Bjelica. Why? Two of the aforementioned three bigs currently on the roster SUCK. The roster sport Bjelica would take up would likely be Hamilton's.

As for why Flip made the moves he made, it's because he thought it was the right move at the time. You can't make moves with stash guys in mind because they have to prove themselves in their overseas league AND still be negotiated to come play in the NBA. Bjelica's play definitely improved this year and it was rightfully noticed by many, which is why he won the MVP award.

Where does Bjelica fit? Well, other than being the best player of the bunch, he's also a good shooter. We don't have a lot of shooters; actually, we have three at max (Martin, Budinger, post All-Star break LaVine). That's one area that we are terrible at that he could help with.

I am not suggesting Hummel is as good as NB (or defending Zgoda too much lol) but look up Hummel's stats his one year in Europe and realize he was a pretty good player over there. You can't conpare a highlight reel of those two guys and say Hummel can't do that they are very different players. It's kinda like 2 Spurs players Danny Green and Belli. One is a 3 and D guy and the other is a shooting wing with PG skills and not a top defender. Very different players.

Not putting stock in guys playing in Euro leagues seems odd. It's the best league outside of the NBA although I do think the D-league is catching up as teams take it more seriously and use it to develop talent. NB signed a contract that kept him in Europe longer and wasn't quite ready and the Wolves didn't have a spot for him then. The last couple years he has really filled out and improved his game and this year even more so. I would like him here but I am also not against trading him. It's just hard to know how good he will be. I feel confident he is going to be good enough to be a rotation player but if that's it idk if signing him makes sense if you can get something for him especially if it gets you a younger PF prospect.

Wolfson has made the point about Dallas which is what Zgoda probably picked up on but tony Ronzone works for the Mavs so that's a reasonable connection. If you get something good fine I am not going to lose sleep over trading him to a WC team. Good for them if he does well hopefully what we get back is good.

Carlos Danger wrote:
Yeah - that would have been me there Camsie. Take another look at Tim's list of past Euro MVPs. Kirilenko is the only name anyone will recognize. And the year Kirilenko won was after he was already an established NBA star - so I wouldn't even count him as part of that list. And yeah, as bad as Payne was last year, he's still already had a better NBA career than most of those past Euro MVPs. I cringe when I see people putting so much value in Euro stats/honors. The NBA is the Premiere League. Players that go to Europe or other places generally do so because they are not good enough to play in the NBA.

Let's check how some established Euroleague/ACB players have lately doing in NBA compared their Euroleague/ACB stats. There was actually some formula (made by Hollinger maybe) to convert Euroleague stats to NBA stats but since I'm too lazy to try to find that I do comparison player by player.

Luis Scola:
2006/07 Euroleague per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
22.5 pts, 8.6 rbs, 3.2 asts, 1.3 stls, 0.5 blks, 2.6 tos, .60 TS%, 23.9 PER
2007/08 NBA per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
17.0 pts, 10.6 rbs, 2.1 asts, 1.2 stls, 0.4 blks, 2.1 tos, .54 TS%, 16.2 PER

Marc Gasol:
2007/08 ACB per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats: (ACB stats used since Gasol's team didn't play Euroleague)
19.9 pts, 10.1 rbs, 3.0 asts, 1.5 stls, 2.1 blks, 2.4 tos, .69 TS%, 26.9 PER
2008/09 NBA per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
15.7 pts, 9.7 rbs, 2.3 asts, 1.0 stls, 1.5 blks, 2.7 tos, .58 TS%, 16.8 PER

Nikola Pekovic:
2009/10 Euroleague per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
27.2 pts, 6.5 rbs, 1.0 asts, 1.1 stls, 0.7 blks, 3.5 tos, .65 TS%, 26.4 PER
2011/12 NBA per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
20.0 pts, 10.6 rbs, 1.0 asts, 0.9 stls, 1.0 blks, 2.7 tos, .60 TS%, 21.4 PER

Tiago Splitter:
2009/10 Euroleague per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
19.4 pts, 8.1 rbs, 2.7 asts, 1.1 stls, 0.7 blks, 2.1 tos, .58 TS%, 21.2 PER
2011/12 NBA per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
19.3 pts, 10.7 rbs, 2.3 asts, 0.7 stls, 1.6 blks, 3.1 tos, .64 TS%, 20.5 PER

Andrei Kirilenko:
2011/12 Euroleague per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
18.4 pts, 9.8 rbs, 3.1 asts, 2.0 stls, 2.5 blks, 1.9 tos, .66 TS%, 27.9 PER
2012/13 NBA per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
15.4 pts, 7.0 rbs, 3.5 asts, 1.9 stls, 1.2 blks, 2.3 tos, .58 TS%, 17.6 PER

Nikola Mirotic:
2013/14 Euroleague per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
20.3 pts, 7.5 rbs, 2.0 asts, 1.8 stls, 1.3 blks, 1.7 tos, .65 TS%, 24.3 PER
2014/15 NBA per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
19.8 pts, 9.6 rbs, 2.3 asts, 1.3 stls, 1.3 blks, 2.1 tos, .54 TS%, 17.1 PER

Nemanja Bjelica:
2014/15 Euroleague per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
17.5 pts, 12.3 rbs, 2.8 asts, 1.9 stls, 1.0 blks, 2.2 tos, .58 TS%, 22.8 PER

It would be probably quite nice to see how Bjelica would play next to Towns or Okafor. His rebounding and assists numbers in Euroleague are really impressive. Typically Euroleague studs have been even better rebounders in NBA, so it is difficult to see how he wouldn't get at least 10 per 40 minutes in NBA.

Mikkeman - Great post. I wonder what the ages are of each when they made the move.

One of the best things for me about this board is when I make a relatively good post, but don't have the time to go as in-depth on the numbers as I'd like because I'm in the heat of battle, so to speak, usually Q or Mikkeman come in behind in relief and shut the door. Great post.

bleedspeed177 wrote:Mikkeman - Great post. I wonder what the ages are of each when they made the move.

Scola was 27, Splitter 26, Gasol 24, Pek 25, Kirilenko 31 (when he came back after his Euroleague season), Mirotic 23. I took both Pek's and Splitter's caase their 2nd NBA season because they didn't get much minutes in 1st season which may partially explain why they didn't see that big drop in efficiency. I think that because ACB is not as tough league as Euroleague, it may explain why Gasol's stats decreased more. Also since Kirilenko was already past his prime, it was not surprise that his stats dropped quite much.

There have been some other players that did play in Euroleague whom were not as successful in NBA (Freeland, Antic, Andersen, Baynes) because they were not that good in Euroleague either or they played there in some less successful teams. I also didn't want to include some players that moved really young from Euroleague to NBA (Ilyasova, Casspi, etc) because they were not yet studs in Euroleague.

Mikkeman wrote:

Carlos Danger wrote:
Yeah - that would have been me there Camsie. Take another look at Tim's list of past Euro MVPs. Kirilenko is the only name anyone will recognize. And the year Kirilenko won was after he was already an established NBA star - so I wouldn't even count him as part of that list. And yeah, as bad as Payne was last year, he's still already had a better NBA career than most of those past Euro MVPs. I cringe when I see people putting so much value in Euro stats/honors. The NBA is the Premiere League. Players that go to Europe or other places generally do so because they are not good enough to play in the NBA.

Let's check how some established Euroleague/ACB players have lately doing in NBA compared their Euroleague/ACB stats. There was actually some formula (made by Hollinger maybe) to convert Euroleague stats to NBA stats but since I'm too lazy to try to find that I do comparison player by player.

Luis Scola:
2006/07 Euroleague per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
22.5 pts, 8.6 rbs, 3.2 asts, 1.3 stls, 0.5 blks, 2.6 tos, .60 TS%, 23.9 PER
2007/08 NBA per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
17.0 pts, 10.6 rbs, 2.1 asts, 1.2 stls, 0.4 blks, 2.1 tos, .54 TS%, 16.2 PER

Marc Gasol:
2007/08 ACB per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats: (ACB stats used since Gasol's team didn't play Euroleague)
19.9 pts, 10.1 rbs, 3.0 asts, 1.5 stls, 2.1 blks, 2.4 tos, .69 TS%, 26.9 PER
2008/09 NBA per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
15.7 pts, 9.7 rbs, 2.3 asts, 1.0 stls, 1.5 blks, 2.7 tos, .58 TS%, 16.8 PER

Nikola Pekovic:
2009/10 Euroleague per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
27.2 pts, 6.5 rbs, 1.0 asts, 1.1 stls, 0.7 blks, 3.5 tos, .65 TS%, 26.4 PER
2011/12 NBA per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
20.0 pts, 10.6 rbs, 1.0 asts, 0.9 stls, 1.0 blks, 2.7 tos, .60 TS%, 21.4 PER

Tiago Splitter:
2009/10 Euroleague per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
19.4 pts, 8.1 rbs, 2.7 asts, 1.1 stls, 0.7 blks, 2.1 tos, .58 TS%, 21.2 PER
2011/12 NBA per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
19.3 pts, 10.7 rbs, 2.3 asts, 0.7 stls, 1.6 blks, 3.1 tos, .64 TS%, 20.5 PER

Andrei Kirilenko:
2011/12 Euroleague per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
18.4 pts, 9.8 rbs, 3.1 asts, 2.0 stls, 2.5 blks, 1.9 tos, .66 TS%, 27.9 PER
2012/13 NBA per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
15.4 pts, 7.0 rbs, 3.5 asts, 1.9 stls, 1.2 blks, 2.3 tos, .58 TS%, 17.6 PER

Nikola Mirotic:
2013/14 Euroleague per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
20.3 pts, 7.5 rbs, 2.0 asts, 1.8 stls, 1.3 blks, 1.7 tos, .65 TS%, 24.3 PER
2014/15 NBA per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
19.8 pts, 9.6 rbs, 2.3 asts, 1.3 stls, 1.3 blks, 2.1 tos, .54 TS%, 17.1 PER

Nemanja Bjelica:
2014/15 Euroleague per 40 minutes pace adjusted stats:
17.5 pts, 12.3 rbs, 2.8 asts, 1.9 stls, 1.0 blks, 2.2 tos, .58 TS%, 22.8 PER

It would be probably quite nice to see how Bjelica would play next to Towns or Okafor. His rebounding and assists numbers in Euroleague are really impressive. Typically Euroleague studs have been even better rebounders in NBA, so it is difficult to see how he wouldn't get at least 10 per 40 minutes in NBA.

Those are all good players. But that's a biased sample not a random sample. You specifically picked guys known to have some success in the NBA vs. taking a random cross section. Again - just look at past Euro MVPs.... The only name most people would recognize was Kirilinko - and as I mentioned in prior posts, he was already an NBA guy taking a year off in Europe (where he not surprisingly dominated).

But even using your biased sample/data a couple of things pop out supporting what I've been saying:
1.) Every single one of those players performed worse in the NBA than in Europe.
2.) Other than Scola, each of those players were younger than Bjelica when they came over (throw out Kirilinko he doesn't count)

I go back to this....if the Wolves scouts thought Bjelica was the answer, he would have been here last year instead of Thad Young and Adriene Payne.

"I go back to this....if the Wolves scouts thought Bjelica was the answer, he would have been here last year instead of Thad Young and Adriene Payne."

You keep trying to sell this point, and yet, it still holds zero truth to it. It's not even a functional thought really considering in 2013 Bjelica signed a three-year deal overseas to play for Obradovi?, who he really wanted to play for.

If they really thought he was the answer blah blah blah. Payne's not the answer. Bennett's not the answer. Garnett WAS the answer and is NOW a place-holder for a possible answer. I don't understand why you keep whining about bringing over Bjelica. It's a good move.