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Re: Wolves vs Celtics (No Irving, Covington, Rose or Teague)
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:06 am
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
AbeVigodaLive wrote:kekgeek1 wrote:longstrangetrip wrote:crazy-canuck wrote:Q12543 wrote:kekgeek1 wrote:Q12543 wrote:Wigs starts missing free throws at exactly the wrong time. Sigh.
Ya. He's tired he is on 25 consecutive game minutes
Wow, yeah, he and Tyus have had no break.
I think alot of our 4th q mishaps the last couple of years can be attributed to thibs' mismanagement of minutes.
35 minutes are doable, but thibs consistently puts guys out there for 15+ minute stretches.
I'm with you, c-c...I'm not willing to give thibs a break on this one, even with 3 players out. Yes, the bench was terrible last night, but I put that on Thibs too...his calling card as a coach has always been to ride his starters too much, and to have his bench underperform because he doesnt trust them or use them. Other coaches coach and develop their entire rosters, and as a result their reserves are ready to step up when called on.
Does anyone really think Terry Rozier would be as successful if he was coached by Thibs instead of Stevens? I never saw Rozier as a future pro when I watched him at Louisville, and he certainly would be languishing on Thibs' bench if he had drafted him. But Stevens drafts and develops him, and Rozier steps up when Irving gets hurt. Meanwhile, a guy like Bayless gets 23 minutes on a 52 win team last year, but can only get 5 on a night when 2 PGs are out hurt? I know the Thibs apologists will point out how ineffective Bayless was last night, but they have their cause and effect wrong...Bayless didn't get five minutes last night because he is a bad player, he got five minutes last night because Thibs doesn't trust him and preferred to run Tyus into the ground. Like he always does.
Playing 3 starters 43, 40 and 37 minutes while Boston plays nobody more than 32 minutes is a prescription for disaster both for the 4th quarter and the season. Many of us questioned why Thibs played Rose and RoCo 40 minutes coming back from injuries and, sure enough, now they are both out with injuries. I've held back this year on criticizing Thib's absurdly out-of-step rotations, but the last couple weeks have really pissed me off. This guy needs to go...today.
You are making up a false narrative this year. We have no player in the top 20 in minutes. Cov comes in 24th.
He was in a no win situation. We lose last night no matter what we did. Every single bench guy was trash. Kat was trash in the 1st half allowing a huge hole to dig out of in the 2nd half.
We weren't winning yesterday
The boy who cried THIBS!
Blaming Thibs for a horrible loss... when you missed the last three quarters is more than a bit over-the-top. The Celtics shot 59% for chrissakes. They were up by 18 points at halftime.
Bayless couldn't even execute calling a random timeout just beyond halfcourt without getting the ball stolen. James Nunnally came in for 3 minutes. In that time... a broken-down Gordon Hayward drove by him twice for easy buckets... not just for a layup. But he ended up ahead of Nunnally by several steps. It was alarming how bad the guy was defensively. I can't recall seeing another Wolves player beaten THAT badly... and obviously, that's saying something. The 3rd time Hayward got the ball vs. Nunnally, he drove by him again but passed out for a wide open three pointer.
Nunnally was unplayable. Literally... unplayable. But hey... Thibby Thibs Thibs THIBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please point out where I blamed Thibs for last night's loss, Abe. I literally just finished typing the opposite right before I read your post!
Perhaps I didn't make my narrative clear and that's on me, but let's keep the discussion on topic. To summarize:
1) The Wolves were likely to lose last night regardless of Thibs' coaching.
2) That said, if that is true why does he continue to run his players into the ground...both in games where we are clearly going to lose as well as games where we are up 20 with 3 minutes to go?
3) I think Thibs' benches are generally awful because of his coaching, not because they are terrible players. I will continue to think this until someone gives me a rational supportable reason for why players like Aldrich, Tolliver and Bayless can play 20+ minutes on winning teams, and then not be able to get off the bench when they come here. Is it any wonder that they completely suck when Thibs finally has to play them out of desperation?
Those are the points I'm trying to make, and I apologize that I wasn't clear...haven't had enough coffee yet. Let's limit the discussion to my main question...do Thibs-coached reserves generally underperform compared to prior performance (Rose being the only meaningful exception I can think of) because they suddenly become bad basketball players, or do they underperform because Thibs both doesn't trust them and doesn't know how to coach them? I think you know what my position is.
Re: Wolves vs Celtics (No Irving, Covington, Rose or Teague)
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:10 am
by kekgeek
WolvesFan21 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:WolvesFan21 wrote:Abe- Is Nunnally and Bayless unplayable because Thibs picked them up or Thibs coached him? Once again, anyway you slice it, Thibs the PBO or Coach is the problem. Your choice is to select which Thibs is at fault.
Yes.
[highlight=#ddd123]THIBS DESERVES TO BE FIRED!!!![/highlight] Literally, every person on this site agrees with this (I think).
So since we all agree on this... can we agree that it's possible to offer praise and criticism for the players from time to time without blaming Thibs?
In no way should you ever not blame Thibs though. Deflecting blame from him is nonsensical. Yes the players are at fault for sucking and Thibs is at fault for being a crappy coach/PBO. Both are the issue.
Do you disagree a coach like Stevens or Pop with this team for 3 years instead of Thibs would have them under .500? They'd be in the 3-5 seed range IMO this season. It doesn't take much to swing 6-7 games either way.
Who fucking knows. Lavine is not good, wiggins is not good.
There is luck involved. We are a small market. We can't just go and sign al Horford or Hayward. We can't trade KG, Pierce, Terry for a ton of draft picks. We didn't draft Duncan 15 billion years ago allowing a championship pedigree to sign an All-Nba guy in Aldridge. They hit on one draft pick in Leonard. Good for them. It happens.
Thibs hasn't drafted well but name one player we could of drafted that would have made us a legit contender. Name 1 trade we could of done to make us a contender (don't say Wiggins for kyrie because the celtics offer was better at the time). Name 1 realistic free agent that would of changed everything.
Thibs is not good. But sometimes we are going to hit a wall no matter once. Thibs made 1 trade that made gave us a chance to be a contender and the players didn't mix it happens
Re: Wolves vs Celtics (No Irving, Covington, Rose or Teague)
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:10 am
by Wolvesfan21
AbeVigodaLive wrote:WolvesFan21 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:WolvesFan21 wrote:Abe- Is Nunnally and Bayless unplayable because Thibs picked them up or Thibs coached him? Once again, anyway you slice it, Thibs the PBO or Coach is the problem. Your choice is to select which Thibs is at fault.
Yes.
[highlight=#ddd123]THIBS DESERVES TO BE FIRED!!!![/highlight] Literally, every person on this site agrees with this (I think).
So since we all agree on this... can we agree that it's possible to offer praise and criticism for the players from time to time without blaming Thibs?
In no way should you ever not blame Thibs though. Deflecting blame from him is nonsensical. Yes the players are at fault for sucking and Thibs is at fault for being a crappy coach/PBO. Both are the issue.
Do you disagree a coach like Stevens or Pop with this team for 3 years instead of Thibs would have them under .500? They'd be in the 3-5 seed range IMO this season. It doesn't take much to swing 6-7 games either way.
[highlight=#f3efb1]
NOBODY IS DEFLECTING BLAME... BUT IT'S LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO BE ON THIS FORUM LATELY BECAUSE SOME POSTERS ARE BLAMING THIBS IN EVERY SINGLE POST... FREE THROWS -- BLAME THIBS!!! LAZY DEFENSE -- BLAME THIBS!!! BAD POST-GAME MEAL -- BLAME THIBS!!![/highlight]
Maybe I'm in the minority. I like to discuss people playing basketball... not loud overweight 55 year old men in suits.
I'm going back to the NBA history card. The entire 70-year history of the NBA has been built on the idea/reality that players win games... NOT coaches. It's been a superstar league in every way. Every single year. EVER.
This has to be the only fanbase (at least on this site) who remains convinced coaches are more important than players.
I'm not defending Thibs. I'm literally calling for him to be fired in nearly every single post I write at this point to prove it. I don't like him. I think he sucks. I think his system is antiquated and he's being tuned out by the players. I don't like listening to him on my television (although I love hearing the disdain for him in Jim Peterson's voice). I think the Wolves made a terrible mistake giving him the Executive gig, too. I don't like the type of PG he seems to like. I don't like that he hasn't embraced the modern NBA as other coaches. I don't like his interviews. I don't like how he looks. I think his hair is stupid looking. And I think he doesn't buy very good suits, relatively speaking.
But blaming him in every post makes this a tough board to participate in sometimes. Ultimately, that's on me. If that's what it is... it's what it is... and no amount of attempts at reason from the likes of me is going to change it. It's on me to leave if it comes to that.
End rant.
I see your point how it can be over the top. But like I said a million times, Thibs brought in the players and Thibs coached them. It's hard to discuss change without us first solving the person in charge of the ship.
Coaching matters more then you think it does. The Wolves are not that far off from being an upper tier team. You flip 6-7 games and that puts the Wolves in the upper tier. A good PBO and Coach can (Could have) do that.
Is Wigs savable with a better coach and utilization of his skills? Would KAT be even better of the ogre wasn't in charge potentially hindering his progress? These are big issues not to be underestimated.
Re: Wolves vs Celtics (No Irving, Covington, Rose or Teague)
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:16 am
by kekgeek
WolvesFan21 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:WolvesFan21 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:WolvesFan21 wrote:Abe- Is Nunnally and Bayless unplayable because Thibs picked them up or Thibs coached him? Once again, anyway you slice it, Thibs the PBO or Coach is the problem. Your choice is to select which Thibs is at fault.
Yes.
[highlight=#ddd123]THIBS DESERVES TO BE FIRED!!!![/highlight] Literally, every person on this site agrees with this (I think).
So since we all agree on this... can we agree that it's possible to offer praise and criticism for the players from time to time without blaming Thibs?
In no way should you ever not blame Thibs though. Deflecting blame from him is nonsensical. Yes the players are at fault for sucking and Thibs is at fault for being a crappy coach/PBO. Both are the issue.
Do you disagree a coach like Stevens or Pop with this team for 3 years instead of Thibs would have them under .500? They'd be in the 3-5 seed range IMO this season. It doesn't take much to swing 6-7 games either way.
[highlight=#f3efb1]
NOBODY IS DEFLECTING BLAME... BUT IT'S LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO BE ON THIS FORUM LATELY BECAUSE SOME POSTERS ARE BLAMING THIBS IN EVERY SINGLE POST... FREE THROWS -- BLAME THIBS!!! LAZY DEFENSE -- BLAME THIBS!!! BAD POST-GAME MEAL -- BLAME THIBS!!![/highlight]
Maybe I'm in the minority. I like to discuss people playing basketball... not loud overweight 55 year old men in suits.
I'm going back to the NBA history card. The entire 70-year history of the NBA has been built on the idea/reality that players win games... NOT coaches. It's been a superstar league in every way. Every single year. EVER.
This has to be the only fanbase (at least on this site) who remains convinced coaches are more important than players.
I'm not defending Thibs. I'm literally calling for him to be fired in nearly every single post I write at this point to prove it. I don't like him. I think he sucks. I think his system is antiquated and he's being tuned out by the players. I don't like listening to him on my television (although I love hearing the disdain for him in Jim Peterson's voice). I think the Wolves made a terrible mistake giving him the Executive gig, too. I don't like the type of PG he seems to like. I don't like that he hasn't embraced the modern NBA as other coaches. I don't like his interviews. I don't like how he looks. I think his hair is stupid looking. And I think he doesn't buy very good suits, relatively speaking.
But blaming him in every post makes this a tough board to participate in sometimes. Ultimately, that's on me. If that's what it is... it's what it is... and no amount of attempts at reason from the likes of me is going to change it. It's on me to leave if it comes to that.
End rant.
I see your point how it can be over the top. But like I said a million times, Thibs brought in the players and Thibs coached them. It's hard to discuss change without us first solving the person in charge of the ship.
Coaching matters more then you think it does. The Wolves are not that far off from being an upper tier team. You flip 6-7 games and that puts the Wolves in the upper tier. A good PBO and Coach can (Could have) do that.
Is Wigs savable with a better coach and utilization of his skills? Would KAT be even better of the ogre wasn't in charge potentially hindering his progress? These are big issues not to be underestimated.
Greak Freak played under a terrible coach last year he was amazing, Lebron played for a terrible coaches and he is amazing. Kat has played under the same head coach as wiggins and he is amazing.
Sure a coach can make you a little better, no doubt. But a coach doesn't turn a meh player of Wiggins into an all star player. It doesn't happen. You either have it or you don't. Wiggins doesn't have it and like cool pointed out that is why we are where we are because we needed Wiggins to be a star and he isn't.
Abe where do you work. I need a beer.
Re: Wolves vs Celtics (No Irving, Covington, Rose or Teague)
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:18 am
by Wolvesfan21
kekgeek1 wrote:WolvesFan21 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:WolvesFan21 wrote:Abe- Is Nunnally and Bayless unplayable because Thibs picked them up or Thibs coached him? Once again, anyway you slice it, Thibs the PBO or Coach is the problem. Your choice is to select which Thibs is at fault.
Yes.
[highlight=#ddd123]THIBS DESERVES TO BE FIRED!!!![/highlight] Literally, every person on this site agrees with this (I think).
So since we all agree on this... can we agree that it's possible to offer praise and criticism for the players from time to time without blaming Thibs?
In no way should you ever not blame Thibs though. Deflecting blame from him is nonsensical. Yes the players are at fault for sucking and Thibs is at fault for being a crappy coach/PBO. Both are the issue.
Do you disagree a coach like Stevens or Pop with this team for 3 years instead of Thibs would have them under .500? They'd be in the 3-5 seed range IMO this season. It doesn't take much to swing 6-7 games either way.
Who fucking knows. Lavine is not good, wiggins is not good.
There is luck involved. We are a small market. We can't just go and sign al Horford or Hayward. We can't trade KG, Pierce, Terry for a ton of draft picks. We didn't draft Duncan 15 billion years ago allowing a championship pedigree to sign an All-Nba guy in Aldridge. They hit on one draft pick in Leonard. Good for them. It happens.
Thibs hasn't drafted well but name one player we could of drafted that would have made us a legit contender. Name 1 trade we could of done to make us a contender (don't say Wiggins for kyrie because the celtics offer was better at the time). Name 1 realistic free agent that would of changed everything.
Thibs is not good. But sometimes we are going to hit a wall no matter once. Thibs made 1 trade that made gave us a chance to be a contender and the players didn't mix it happens
The Butler fiasco hurt the team overall causing a massive distraction. Thibs knew what type of person he was and so thats that. We have no idea who we could have gotten instead of Butler for Lavine and the 7th pick swap. Endless speculation. But what we do know is what has happened has not worked.
Wigs has regressed, KAT was playing terrible while Butler was here. I think that Thibs has hindered the progress of both players and every player on the team. Again, it's my opinion and it's not measurable. I think the players don't listen to Thibs. As we can see with the lack of defense from the "defensive genius".
Thibs and many experts called this roster the most talented in the NBA. Coaches and GM's voted that KAT was the best player to start a franchise with. What has that gotten us? No where. It's been an utter failure.
Just like people say Wigs is a net negative, Thibs is too. The team would be better off without a head coach then with Thibs. He hurts the team.
Re: Wolves vs Celtics (No Irving, Covington, Rose or Teague)
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:19 am
by Coolbreeze44
I'm just confused about one thing. Abe, do you think Thibs should be fired?
Re: Wolves vs Celtics (No Irving, Covington, Rose or Teague)
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:22 am
by Q12543 [enjin:6621299]
Did someone say beer? I'm in. Where are we meeting and when is LST's private plane coming to get me?
(Abe, just to be clear, are you suggesting we should keep Thibs?).
Re: Wolves vs Celtics (No Irving, Covington, Rose or Teague)
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:24 am
by AbeVigodaLive
kekgeek1 wrote:WolvesFan21 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:WolvesFan21 wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:WolvesFan21 wrote:Abe- Is Nunnally and Bayless unplayable because Thibs picked them up or Thibs coached him? Once again, anyway you slice it, Thibs the PBO or Coach is the problem. Your choice is to select which Thibs is at fault.
Yes.
[highlight=#ddd123]THIBS DESERVES TO BE FIRED!!!![/highlight] Literally, every person on this site agrees with this (I think).
So since we all agree on this... can we agree that it's possible to offer praise and criticism for the players from time to time without blaming Thibs?
In no way should you ever not blame Thibs though. Deflecting blame from him is nonsensical. Yes the players are at fault for sucking and Thibs is at fault for being a crappy coach/PBO. Both are the issue.
Do you disagree a coach like Stevens or Pop with this team for 3 years instead of Thibs would have them under .500? They'd be in the 3-5 seed range IMO this season. It doesn't take much to swing 6-7 games either way.
[highlight=#f3efb1]
NOBODY IS DEFLECTING BLAME... BUT IT'S LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO BE ON THIS FORUM LATELY BECAUSE SOME POSTERS ARE BLAMING THIBS IN EVERY SINGLE POST... FREE THROWS -- BLAME THIBS!!! LAZY DEFENSE -- BLAME THIBS!!! BAD POST-GAME MEAL -- BLAME THIBS!!![/highlight]
Maybe I'm in the minority. I like to discuss people playing basketball... not loud overweight 55 year old men in suits.
I'm going back to the NBA history card. The entire 70-year history of the NBA has been built on the idea/reality that players win games... NOT coaches. It's been a superstar league in every way. Every single year. EVER.
This has to be the only fanbase (at least on this site) who remains convinced coaches are more important than players.
I'm not defending Thibs. I'm literally calling for him to be fired in nearly every single post I write at this point to prove it. I don't like him. I think he sucks. I think his system is antiquated and he's being tuned out by the players. I don't like listening to him on my television (although I love hearing the disdain for him in Jim Peterson's voice). I think the Wolves made a terrible mistake giving him the Executive gig, too. I don't like the type of PG he seems to like. I don't like that he hasn't embraced the modern NBA as other coaches. I don't like his interviews. I don't like how he looks. I think his hair is stupid looking. And I think he doesn't buy very good suits, relatively speaking.
But blaming him in every post makes this a tough board to participate in sometimes. Ultimately, that's on me. If that's what it is... it's what it is... and no amount of attempts at reason from the likes of me is going to change it. It's on me to leave if it comes to that.
End rant.
I see your point how it can be over the top. But like I said a million times, Thibs brought in the players and Thibs coached them. It's hard to discuss change without us first solving the person in charge of the ship.
Coaching matters more then you think it does. The Wolves are not that far off from being an upper tier team. You flip 6-7 games and that puts the Wolves in the upper tier. A good PBO and Coach can (Could have) do that.
Is Wigs savable with a better coach and utilization of his skills? Would KAT be even better of the ogre wasn't in charge potentially hindering his progress? These are big issues not to be underestimated.
Greak Freak played under a terrible coach last year he was amazing, Lebron played for a terrible coaches and he is amazing. Kat has played under the same head coach as wiggins and he is amazing.
Sure a coach can make you a little better, no doubt. But a coach doesn't turn a meh player of Wiggins into an all star player. It doesn't happen. You either have it or you don't. Wiggins doesn't have it and like cool pointed out that is why we are where we are because we needed Wiggins to be a star and he isn't.
Abe where do you work. I need a beer.
And it's not limited to the modern NBA. Do you guys realize just how bad some NBA coaches have been? Yet... there has not been a player who's been "meh" to "average at best" for three different coaches while not showing any meaningful statistical improvement for several seasons... who suddenly blew up and became an all-star player with a new coach. NEVER. (I'm sorta/kinda sure about this)
But hey... maybe the Wolves are the anomaly.
After all, we're the one organization who repeatedly picks terrible coaches who are to blame for on-court performance... Adelman, Mitchell, Thibs, et al.
[Note: It's definitely Beer:30.]
Re: Wolves vs Celtics (No Irving, Covington, Rose or Teague)
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:28 am
by AbeVigodaLive
longstrangetrip wrote:AbeVigodaLive wrote:kekgeek1 wrote:longstrangetrip wrote:crazy-canuck wrote:Q12543 wrote:kekgeek1 wrote:Q12543 wrote:Wigs starts missing free throws at exactly the wrong time. Sigh.
Ya. He's tired he is on 25 consecutive game minutes
Wow, yeah, he and Tyus have had no break.
I think alot of our 4th q mishaps the last couple of years can be attributed to thibs' mismanagement of minutes.
35 minutes are doable, but thibs consistently puts guys out there for 15+ minute stretches.
You are making up a false narrative this year. We have no player in the top 20 in minutes. Cov comes in 24th.
He was in a no win situation. We lose last night no matter what we did. Every single bench guy was trash. Kat was trash in the 1st half allowing a huge hole to dig out of in the 2nd half.
We weren't winning yesterday
The boy who cried THIBS!
Blaming Thibs for a horrible loss... when you missed the last three quarters is more than a bit over-the-top. The Celtics shot 59% for chrissakes. They were up by 18 points at halftime.
Bayless couldn't even execute calling a random timeout just beyond halfcourt without getting the ball stolen. James Nunnally came in for 3 minutes. In that time... a broken-down Gordon Hayward drove by him twice for easy buckets... not just for a layup. But he ended up ahead of Nunnally by several steps. It was alarming how bad the guy was defensively. I can't recall seeing another Wolves player beaten THAT badly... and obviously, that's saying something. The 3rd time Hayward got the ball vs. Nunnally, he drove by him again but passed out for a wide open three pointer.
Nunnally was unplayable. Literally... unplayable. But hey... Thibby Thibs Thibs THIBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Please point out where I blamed Thibs for last night's loss, Abe. I literally just finished typing the opposite right before I read your post!
"I'm not willing to give thibs a break on this one, even with 3 players out. Yes, the bench was terrible last night, but I put that on Thibs too..."
Re: Wolves vs Celtics (No Irving, Covington, Rose or Teague)
Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 9:30 am
by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
I also understand why the Thibs-bashing may get a little stale for Abe. We all have our topics that make us want to pull our hair out (for me it is the Wig trade proposals, all of which are unlikely to ever happen), and I think most of us just ignore the posts that irritate us. But I also think Abe sometimes only reads what he wants to read to support his narrative that this board is unfair to Thibs (AND YES ABE...I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU ALSO WANT THIBS FIRED!). Abe, you have portrayed me as a Thibs-hater, but I know if I took the time I could find 50+ instances where I have praised a move Thibs has made, either as a coach or a POBO. I don't think Thibs is the right guy to coach this team, but my differences with him are narrow, not broad. I don't hate him at all, I merely disagree with many of his decisions. Specifically, I think he plays his starters too much, I think his offense is antiquated, and I think his reserves generally perform worse for Thibs then they did for their previous coaches. Points one and three can be supported by empirical evidence, and point two is admittedly just based on my observation. But I'm willing to have a discussion about any of my three points with which a poster disagrees with...disagreements on specific points are the beauty of this board. But labeling posters who point out things they dislike in Thibs' coaching as general Thibs-haters is not constructive in my opinion. That said, I kind of enjoy your rants, so carry on.