Next Years Bigs

[Coolbreeze44]

I share FNG’s reluctance to deal KAT for Scoot because of those “red” flags he listed, although I’d call them yellow cautionary flags. Just too many cautionary flags to get as the prize return for KAT. But I’d be even less inclined to deal KAT for Miller - a guy with actual red flags. I wouldn’t go near him. If we’re going to trade KAT for a top 5 pick, I’d be more interested in Amen Thompson.

Charlotte isn’t going to pass on the chance to get KAT because of Mark Williams. That’s pretty silly. But I’m not sure the Hornets would give up their #2 pick for KAT. The question is whether the Hornets front office wants to jump-start the team’s development and become a likely playoff team next season. If so, then I think they’d deal #2 for KAT. Pairing LaMello with KAT would provide a really potent offensive machine. The Wolves were the #8 offense two seasons ago with KAT and Edwards before Edwards was an all-star caliber player. But if Charlotte’s front office is still all in on building methodically around Ball, then they’ll keep the pick.

I still think it’s a bad idea to trade KAT. Trading KAT takes away one of the team’s two all-stars, an offensive unicorn and the only elite three-point shooter on team that’s already deficient in that area. Trading KAT for a completely unproven young college or G-League player other than Wemba seems far too risky to me - the sort of deal that could easily implode.

The torrent of talk about trading KAT for a top 4 pick strikes me as the wrong way to address the obvious cap cliff the Wolves are headed towards the season after next. KAT’s supermax isn’t the problem. This team could easily stay below the apron in 2024 pairing KAT with Edwards, Jaden, Naz and Naw signed to the contracts they’re likely to get. The problem is Gobert. His $43 million in 2024 can’t be justified given what he provides to the team and as he ages he’ll provide even less. I think it would be a mistake to allow one terrible deal - the Gobert trade - to cause another bad trade - swapping an allstar in his prime for a young unknown.

I’ll offer another path. Instead of trading KAT for a top 4 pick, how about trading Gobert for expiring contracts and a lower first-round or a couple high second round picks. The Wolves owners gave TC an unprecedented contract to lure him here based largely on his reputation for finding great talent low in the draft. It’s time to put his supposed prowess to the test. There are some exciting young prospects who will likely be available in the 15-40 range, including Nick Smith, Kobe Bufkin, Kris Murray, James Nnaji, Brandon Podziemski, Sidy Cissoko, Marcus Sasser, Kobe Brown and others. There are a number of teams with lottery picks who also have other picks. Orlando has ##6, 11 and 36. Houston has ##4 and 20. Portland has ##3, 23 and 43. Charlotte has ##2, 27, 34, 39 and 41. Indiana has ##7, 26, 29, and 32. Those are all teams that can have their cake and eat it too - meaning they can get a lottery prospect to build for the future and use another pick or two to get an all NBA defensive center in Rudy to help improve the team more immediately. I suspect Orlando has their sights set on trying to make a big jump next season. Obviously, Portland wants to make a big jump for a last shot with Lillard and Gobert would be a big improvement over Nurkic. I’d offer Rudy +#53 for ## 23 and 43 along with matching salaries.

I agree with lip. Its fun to think about potential Kat deals because we know he is in his prime and has great value and will bring a lot back. But ultimately it is unwise to move him over gobert. Gobert trade was a mistake. TC needs to own up to that and move on and get the best possible pieces to salvage that trade. Build the team around ant, kat and jaden. They are young enough that you still have time to fit the right pieces around them. Riding out Gobert’s contract while trading away Kat will just put us in the lower seed/playin spot for the next 4 years.

I don't think the demeanor of KAT gets talked about enough. Sure, he is very talented, but the guy puts off some weird energy. He is not a leader, though he attempts to awkwardly force it. He bitches after bowling over defenders, and then mentally checks out all over the court. Hasn't shown up in either of our playoff stints. Moving KAT isn't just about it being our best option to gain value, there is an addition by subtraction value to moving KAT as well. KAT is not a player to build a culture around. Edwards is. Hell, even Gobert is. Slo-mo is. Prince, McDaniels, Conley are. KAT is a bitch. Mannerisms, robotic PR interviews. Move him, he hasn't improved nearly enough in 4+ years to commit to the insane contract he is signed to, instead he has regressed.

If fans are honest, KAT is a #1 talent with a weird non-accepting role-player attitude.

Now is the time to attempt to cash out.

Yes, we've been waiting a long time for things to change with KAT. We keep pushing the "wait one more year narrative", and I think his value is already on the decline. Future you are right, now is the time to cash out and get as much as we can. I know he's a great talent, but that alone hasn't been good enough.

[BloopOracle]

If Kat is in a Wolves jersey next season he will be have the longest streak of a number 1 pick staying with the team that drafted him since Tim Duncan. We've seen more than enough, send him packing if Scoot is on the table.

[Lipoli390]

I agree with lip. Its fun to think about potential Kat deals because we know he is in his prime and has great value and will bring a lot back. But ultimately it is unwise to move him over gobert. Gobert trade was a mistake. TC needs to own up to that and move on and get the best possible pieces to salvage that trade. Build the team around ant, kat and jaden. They are young enough that you still have time to fit the right pieces around them. Riding out Gobert’s contract while trading away Kat will just put us in the lower seed/playin spot for the next 4 years.

I don't think the demeanor of KAT gets talked about enough. Sure, he is very talented, but the guy puts off some weird energy. He is not a leader, though he attempts to awkwardly force it. He bitches after bowling over defenders, and then mentally checks out all over the court. Hasn't shown up in either of our playoff stints. Moving KAT isn't just about it being our best option to gain value, there is an addition by subtraction value to moving KAT as well. KAT is not a player to build a culture around. Edwards is. Hell, even Gobert is. Slo-mo is. Prince, McDaniels, Conley are. KAT is a bitch. Mannerisms, robotic PR interviews. Move him, he hasn't improved nearly enough in 4+ years to commit to the insane contract he is signed to, instead he has regressed.

If fans are honest, KAT is a #1 talent with a weird non-accepting role-player attitude.

Now is the time to attempt to cash out.

Yes, we've been waiting a long time for things to change with KAT. We keep pushing the "wait one more year narrative", and I think his value is already on the decline. Future you are right, now is the time to cash out and get as much as we can. I know he's a great talent, but that alone hasn't been good enough.

Cool - You and I have been having this debate for a while. It’s a fascinating discussion. You know where I stand. I do think the best argument for trading KAT this summer is your “cash out now” argument. Although I disagree with you on whether to trade KAT this summer, I’ll add another argument that supports your position. If we trade KAT this summer for a prospect like Scoot, it’s highly likely this team will take a step or half-step back and end up in the lottery next year or as an 8th seed again at best. Therefore, if we’re going to deal KAT, now is the time because we have our 2024 first round pick. If we deal KAT next summer, we’d risk taking a step back without the benefit of draft compensation. So while I don’t want the Wolves to trade KAT this summer, that fact has to be considered by our front office.

[Coolbreeze44]

I don't think the demeanor of KAT gets talked about enough. Sure, he is very talented, but the guy puts off some weird energy. He is not a leader, though he attempts to awkwardly force it. He bitches after bowling over defenders, and then mentally checks out all over the court. Hasn't shown up in either of our playoff stints. Moving KAT isn't just about it being our best option to gain value, there is an addition by subtraction value to moving KAT as well. KAT is not a player to build a culture around. Edwards is. Hell, even Gobert is. Slo-mo is. Prince, McDaniels, Conley are. KAT is a bitch. Mannerisms, robotic PR interviews. Move him, he hasn't improved nearly enough in 4+ years to commit to the insane contract he is signed to, instead he has regressed.

If fans are honest, KAT is a #1 talent with a weird non-accepting role-player attitude.

Now is the time to attempt to cash out.

Yes, we've been waiting a long time for things to change with KAT. We keep pushing the "wait one more year narrative", and I think his value is already on the decline. Future you are right, now is the time to cash out and get as much as we can. I know he's a great talent, but that alone hasn't been good enough.

Cool - You and I have been having this debate for a while. It’s a fascinating discussion. You know where I stand. I do think the best argument for trading KAT this summer is your “cash out now” argument. Although I disagree with you on whether to trade KAT this summer I’ll add another argument that supports your position. If we trade KAT this summer for a prospect like Scoot, it’s highly likely this team will take a step or half-step back and end up in the lottery next year or as an 8th seed again at best. Therefore, if we’re going to deal KAT, now is the time because we have our 2024 first round pick. If we deal KAT next summer, we’d risk taking a step back without the benefit of draft compensation. So while I don’t want the Wolves to trade KAT this summer, that fact has to be considered by our front office.

Lipster, we basically made the playoffs without KAT this year. I'm guessing we have Anfernee Simons and Henderson added to better versions of Ant and McDaniels next year. To me it seems like an awfully exciting roster, and one that should be ready to make us better right away. I respect your opinion on this as well, it's going to be a really interesting offseason to say the least.

[TheFuture]

I know Towns has his flaws but my goodness he isn’t some horrible guy.

One of the problems that come with trading Towns or Gobert or any big salary player for assets or to save money a season from now is that it likely means multiple players coming back. That can be a good thing but it could also mean taking up roster spots that could be used to acquire the types of players this team needs. For example let’s say Garza turns into a nice bench big for the next 5 years. If the Wolves don’t do the Gobert trade Garza probably isn’t here as the Wolves wouldn’t have had an open roster spot of any kind. Roster spots are so valuable and can be a way to mitigate spending and or overspending on other players. Miami is in the Finals partly because of all the undrafted players on their roster. They ended up overpaying Duncan Robinson but no worries they found 3 more guys that are playing legit minutes on a team that is in the finals.

What’s the concern about the expensive roster into the lux tax? The Wolves can’t sign FA over a couple million bucks? Ok sure that’s a problem but look at Miami. They literally screwed themselves a few different times the last few years overpaying guys and look at where they are now. If Connelly is the guy that nearly built Denver into a contender then I’m feeling just fine in having him try to find cheap worthwhile players and part of doing that is getting the most out of every roster spot and in some cases simply having on available to add a guy that could turn into something. As I have said numerous times there is more opportunity to do this than ever.

I don’t want to make it sound like the money part doesn’t matter because it does but to me the question about whether to trade Gobert or Towns should be more about basketball not salaries. If that’s the case then I just don’t think we have seen those guys and this roster play enough as a group to know that it won’t work. Im not opposed to trading either guy but I’m not gonna worry about the Wolves being in the tax a season from now. So much can happen in a year and 2 off seasons in the NBA. Let’s go find the next Naz Reid or Caleb Martin or Bruce Brown or Joe Harris etc.

Miami has won in it's history, has a cornerstone of basketball running the show in Riley, a top 5 current coach in Spoelstra, and is in Florida.

Garza is nothing. Let's be honest, players like him are happy to get a check. The Wolves are the bottom rung of the league for players trying to make it. If Miami or LA want you as a trial run, you go there. MN is just a step above the G-League. Would Caleb Martin bet on himself getting noticed in MN or Miami?

The only reason people talk highly about Tim Connelly in Denver is because he struck three grand slams in a single swing with Jokic. That very very rarely happens. Remove Jokic, and Murray, Porter and whatever other players on Denver are just another middling team.

[Lipoli390]

Yes, we've been waiting a long time for things to change with KAT. We keep pushing the "wait one more year narrative", and I think his value is already on the decline. Future you are right, now is the time to cash out and get as much as we can. I know he's a great talent, but that alone hasn't been good enough.

Cool - You and I have been having this debate for a while. It’s a fascinating discussion. You know where I stand. I do think the best argument for trading KAT this summer is your “cash out now” argument. Although I disagree with you on whether to trade KAT this summer I’ll add another argument that supports your position. If we trade KAT this summer for a prospect like Scoot, it’s highly likely this team will take a step or half-step back and end up in the lottery next year or as an 8th seed again at best. Therefore, if we’re going to deal KAT, now is the time because we have our 2024 first round pick. If we deal KAT next summer, we’d risk taking a step back without the benefit of draft compensation. So while I don’t want the Wolves to trade KAT this summer, that fact has to be considered by our front office.

Lipster, we basically made the playoffs without KAT this year. I'm guessing we have Anfernee Simons and Henderson added to better versions of Ant and McDaniels next year. To me it seems like an awfully exciting roster, and one that should be ready to make us better right away. I respect your opinion on this as well, it's going to be a really interesting offseason to say the least.

Cool. I see your point, but I don’t have confidence in Scoot having a net positive impact as a rookie. His G-League numbers suggest otherwise. KAT had a decisive impact when he returned late in the season. I honestly don’t think we would have made the playoffs without him. I agree that Simons would be a positive, but not a KAT-level positive.

I guess I should have stopped short of predicting that we’d take a step or half-step backwards dealing KAT to Portland for Scoot and Simons. But we should at least acknowledge that’s a distinct possibility. Scoot is talented, but he’s no Wemby by any stretch. My point is that trading KAT for Scoot or some other lottery pick makes more sense this summer than it would next summer because of the possible step back that sort of deal would entail. I say that even though I’d rather not trade KAT. But you should at least acknowledge that trading KAT for an unproven rookie, Scoot, probably means we’re worse next season than we’d be if we didn’t make that trade. Trading for Scoot is mainly a long-term move as part of building around KAT and Jaden.

it would certainly be exciting to have Scoot along with Ant and Jaden to build around.

[WildWolf2813]

Cool - You and I have been having this debate for a while. It’s a fascinating discussion. You know where I stand. I do think the best argument for trading KAT this summer is your “cash out now” argument. Although I disagree with you on whether to trade KAT this summer I’ll add another argument that supports your position. If we trade KAT this summer for a prospect like Scoot, it’s highly likely this team will take a step or half-step back and end up in the lottery next year or as an 8th seed again at best. Therefore, if we’re going to deal KAT, now is the time because we have our 2024 first round pick. If we deal KAT next summer, we’d risk taking a step back without the benefit of draft compensation. So while I don’t want the Wolves to trade KAT this summer, that fact has to be considered by our front office.

Lipster, we basically made the playoffs without KAT this year. I'm guessing we have Anfernee Simons and Henderson added to better versions of Ant and McDaniels next year. To me it seems like an awfully exciting roster, and one that should be ready to make us better right away. I respect your opinion on this as well, it's going to be a really interesting offseason to say the least.

Cool. I see your point, but I don’t have confidence in Scoot having a net positive impact as a rookie. His G-League numbers suggest otherwise. KAT had a decisive impact when he returned late in the season. I honestly don’t think we would have made the playoffs without him. I agree that Simons would be a positive, but not a KAT-level positive.

I guess I should have stopped short of predicting that we’d take a step or half-step backwards dealing KAT to Portland for Scoot and Simons. But we should at least acknowledge that’s a distinct possibility. Scoot is talented, but he’s no Wemby by any stretch. My point is that trading KAT for Scoot or some other lottery pick makes more sense this summer than it would next summer because of the possible step back that sort of deal would entail. I say that even though I’d rather not trade KAT. But you should at least acknowledge that trading KAT for an unproven rookie, Scoot, probably means we’re worse next season than we’d be if we didn’t make that trade. Trading for Scoot is mainly a long-term move as part of building around KAT and Jaden.

it would certainly be exciting to have Scoot along with Ant and Jaden to build around.

Trading Towns or Gobert almost guarantees the team is taking a step back, but you're making that swap with the idea of next year being worse and not the next few years after that.

The way the CBA has set itself up, now the team has to do it out of necessity. Assuming we got Scoot, we're all in on Scoot being the 2nd best player on the team long term (because I don't think McDaniels has the capability to be that for us)

[Lipoli390]

Lipster, we basically made the playoffs without KAT this year. I'm guessing we have Anfernee Simons and Henderson added to better versions of Ant and McDaniels next year. To me it seems like an awfully exciting roster, and one that should be ready to make us better right away. I respect your opinion on this as well, it's going to be a really interesting offseason to say the least.

Cool. I see your point, but I don’t have confidence in Scoot having a net positive impact as a rookie. His G-League numbers suggest otherwise. KAT had a decisive impact when he returned late in the season. I honestly don’t think we would have made the playoffs without him. I agree that Simons would be a positive, but not a KAT-level positive.

I guess I should have stopped short of predicting that we’d take a step or half-step backwards dealing KAT to Portland for Scoot and Simons. But we should at least acknowledge that’s a distinct possibility. Scoot is talented, but he’s no Wemby by any stretch. My point is that trading KAT for Scoot or some other lottery pick makes more sense this summer than it would next summer because of the possible step back that sort of deal would entail. I say that even though I’d rather not trade KAT. But you should at least acknowledge that trading KAT for an unproven rookie, Scoot, probably means we’re worse next season than we’d be if we didn’t make that trade. Trading for Scoot is mainly a long-term move as part of building around KAT and Jaden.

it would certainly be exciting to have Scoot along with Ant and Jaden to build around.

Trading Towns or Gobert almost guarantees the team is taking a step back, but you're making that swap with the idea of next year being worse and not the next few years after that.

The way the CBA has set itself up, now the team has to do it out of necessity. Assuming we got Scoot, we're all in on Scoot being the 2nd best player on the team long term (because I don't think McDaniels has the capability to be that for us)

That’s spot on, Wolf. Trading KAT for Scoot or another high lottery pick is a longer-term play that would probably mean a step back next season. That’s why I’ve come around to concluding that if we’re going to trade KAT, this summer (not next) is the time to do it. I don’t think trading Rudy means a step back. If KAT is healthy then I would expect this team to perform at least at the level it performed two seasons ago. We won’t have Vando, Beasley or Beverley, but we’ll have Slo Mo and much better versions of Edwards and McDaniels.

I agree that trading KAT for Scoot comes with the expectation that Scoot will eventually be our #2 behind Ant. But I haven’t totally written off the possibility of Jaden becoming a legitimate #2. If we could trade KAT straight up for Mikal Bridges, I think Bridges would instantly become a viable #2 to Ant. I see Jaden potentially reaching Mikal’s level.

[Sundog]

I’m on board now with trading KAT (this summer) or Rudy (next summer), if only because the new CBA makes it impossible to have such a heavy team salary cost going forward. That makes the Gobert trade even more maddening - shouldn’t TC have seen this coming or was it entirely out the blue?

If the trade comes this summer, it would give the Wolves more flexibility to try to keep Naz and extend NAW. I like Scoot, so if that’s the deal, I’m happy… the guy is hugely talented, has a lot of “dog” in him, and being mentored by Conley to achieve his potential as an all star NBA PG would be a terrific opportunity.

[Lipoli390]

I’m on board now with trading KAT (this summer) or Rudy (next summer), if only because the new CBA makes it impossible to have such a heavy team salary cost going forward. That makes the Gobert trade even more maddening - shouldn’t TC have seen this coming or was it entirely out the blue?

If the trade comes this summer, it would give the Wolves more flexibility to try to keep Naz and extend NAW. I like Scoot, so if that’s the deal, I’m happy… the guy is hugely talented, has a lot of “dog” in him, and being mentored by Conley to achieve his potential as an all star NBA PG would be a terrific opportunity.

TC had to see what was potentially coming out of the new CBA, which was being negotiated at the time. Even the general media was reporting back then that the League was determined to crack down on commonplace practice of exceeding the luxury tax. I recall reading reports dating back at least a year that the League would seek a hard cap at some level north of the luxury tax threshold or far more server penalties. Given what was reported in the public domain, NBA executives and owners had to know even more. It's just another level of malfeasance by the Wolves front office last summer.

I agree that this is the summer to trade KAT, not next summer. But the same logic applies to Rudy Gobert. I would not want to risk further decline in the 31-year old's performance or, worse yet, a major injury which would take his value to zero. Moreover, if we're going to move on from KAT and/or Rudy and build around Ant and Jaden, it's better to get that ball rolling sooner rather than later so the team can develop a style and chemistry that fits.

I just read a report that the Lakers are interested in Naz. Apparently other teams are also interested him, which isn't surprising. I'm becoming more convinced that TC is a good judge of young talent, but not a good top executive. I don't think he's very smart. Honestly, you can't be very smart and make the deal he made last summer. Therefore, I suspect he'll dig in on keeping both KAT and Rudy, and as part of that he'll make a sign-and-trade Naz deal for veteran who won't fit well long term with Ant or Jaden. Just a guess, but that's my thinking until TC does something to change my mind about him. Rosas won me over after the Culver debacle by making some savvy moves. Maybe TC will do the same.