Minnesota Sports Forum

Q12543 wrote:Brown was laying the foundation for this culture during the bad years. One thing they always did was play hard, cut hard, and defend. The year they won 10 games they were STILL better than us defensively. The year they won 18 games they were something like 17th defensively. Now that they have some legit talent, they are legit on both ends and only getting better with each passing game!

That's right, Q. Brown's teams with absolutely no talent on them always overachieved relative to their talent. In contrast, in his first season with the Wolves, Thibs certainly didn't get the Wolves to overachieve. The Wolves in Thibs' first season as head coach ended up with essentially the same record as the even younger less experienced team coached by Sam Mitchell the year before. I see no sign that Thibs got the Wolves to overachieve this season either as we ended up finishing behind obviously less talented teams like the Utah Jazz and again ended up one of the worst defensive teams in the League.

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Sixers just showed me that you can play good defense without a defensive savant in the middle. They just shut down Miami in the 3rd quarter with only one all-NBA caliber defender in Covington and then a bunch of guys I always thought of as mediocre at best individually. It's amazing how a coach can get guys to play up on that side of the floor!

On the Lowe Post, they had Covington and Simmons as top 10 defenders in the entire league. In fact Covington was 2nd in the league in defensive win shares for guys who played at least 50 games. Simmons was 5, Embiid 6, Reddick 17 and Saric 23. Boston was the only other team stacked to that level with Smart 4, Brown 7, Tatum 8, Horford 9 and Kyrie 25. Philly is a dominant defensive team and it's not all Embiid. He's a DPOY candidate, but they have two guys in Covington and Simmons who are top 10 defenders in the entire league as well.

We have Butler and Taj -- two players who have been top defenders in the League before coming to the MN. Yet, we've one of the worst defensive teams in the League. There's nothing in their past to suggest that Saric, Redick, Tatum, Brown and Kyrie would be top 25 defenders. Actually, Kyrie was known as a terrible defender before joining the Celtics. So as Q said, it comes back to coaching.

Redick has been an underrated defender for years.

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Sixers just showed me that you can play good defense without a defensive savant in the middle. They just shut down Miami in the 3rd quarter with only one all-NBA caliber defender in Covington and then a bunch of guys I always thought of as mediocre at best individually. It's amazing how a coach can get guys to play up on that side of the floor!

On the Lowe Post, they had Covington and Simmons as top 10 defenders in the entire league. In fact Covington was 2nd in the league in defensive win shares for guys who played at least 50 games. Simmons was 5, Embiid 6, Reddick 17 and Saric 23. Boston was the only other team stacked to that level with Smart 4, Brown 7, Tatum 8, Horford 9 and Kyrie 25. Philly is a dominant defensive team and it's not all Embiid. He's a DPOY candidate, but they have two guys in Covington and Simmons who are top 10 defenders in the entire league as well.

We have Butler and Taj -- two players who have been top defenders in the League before coming to the MN. Yet, we've one of the worst defensive teams in the League. There's nothing in their past to suggest that Saric, Redick, Tatum, Brown and Kyrie would be top 25 defenders. Actually, Kyrie was known as a terrible defender before joining the Celtics. So as Q said, it comes back to coaching.

There isn't much of a past to look on for Saric, Tatum and Brown and JJ has always been a solid defender. Kyrie is the only one who is out of place on that list and he's all the way down at 25 so it's not like he's been great. Philly has 3 top 10 defenders in their lineup and Redick and Saric are solid so losing 1 of those top 10 defenders doesn't tank the whole team defense. They still have 2 more top 10 defenders to fall back on. Sure Jimmy and Taj have been good defenders, but Towns and Wiggins have historically rated as some of the poorest the game has to offer and Teague is no defensive savant himself. My main point is Brown isn't working with bad players and making them great defenders. Brad Stevens isn't working with bad players and making them great defenders. They have high end defensive talent and also have good coaching. I don't think a new coach all of a sudden makes us a top 10 defense. We aren't working with the same defensive talent they have. We have 1 top defensive talent and 1 solid defensive talent. Can we be better? Absolutely, but it's not all Thibs. Basic fundamental help defense from KAT and Wiggins would go just as far as a new coach.

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Brown was laying the foundation for this culture during the bad years. One thing they always did was play hard, cut hard, and defend. The year they won 10 games they were STILL better than us defensively. The year they won 18 games they were something like 17th defensively. Now that they have some legit talent, they are legit on both ends and only getting better with each passing game!

That's right, Q. Brown's teams with absolutely no talent on them always overachieved relative to their talent. In contrast, in his first season with the Wolves, Thibs certainly didn't get the Wolves to overachieve. The Wolves in Thibs' first season as head coach ended up with essentially the same record as the even younger less experienced team coached by Sam Mitchell the year before. I see no sign that Thibs got the Wolves to overachieve this season either as we ended up finishing behind obviously less talented teams like the Utah Jazz and again ended up one of the worst defensive teams in the League.

Not to take anything away from Brown because I thought he has done a good job this whole time with the Sixers but it's different coaching a bunch of guys that are basically just trying to stay in the league and nobody that's a star type. It's been 5 years now he has been able to do what he does. Meanwhile the Wolves have had 4 different coaches over that time. Year 3 (or even some encouraging signs in this year's playoffs) with Thibs we need to see some more results.

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Sixers just showed me that you can play good defense without a defensive savant in the middle. They just shut down Miami in the 3rd quarter with only one all-NBA caliber defender in Covington and then a bunch of guys I always thought of as mediocre at best individually. It's amazing how a coach can get guys to play up on that side of the floor!

On the Lowe Post, they had Covington and Simmons as top 10 defenders in the entire league. In fact Covington was 2nd in the league in defensive win shares for guys who played at least 50 games. Simmons was 5, Embiid 6, Reddick 17 and Saric 23. Boston was the only other team stacked to that level with Smart 4, Brown 7, Tatum 8, Horford 9 and Kyrie 25. Philly is a dominant defensive team and it's not all Embiid. He's a DPOY candidate, but they have two guys in Covington and Simmons who are top 10 defenders in the entire league as well.

We have Butler and Taj -- two players who have been top defenders in the League before coming to the MN. Yet, we've one of the worst defensive teams in the League. There's nothing in their past to suggest that Saric, Redick, Tatum, Brown and Kyrie would be top 25 defenders. Actually, Kyrie was known as a terrible defender before joining the Celtics. So as Q said, it comes back to coaching.

There isn't much of a past to look on for Saric, Tatum and Brown and JJ has always been a solid defender. Kyrie is the only one who is out of place on that list and he's all the way down at 25 so it's not like he's been great. Philly has 3 top 10 defenders in their lineup and Redick and Saric are solid so losing 1 of those top 10 defenders doesn't tank the whole team defense. They still have 2 more top 10 defenders to fall back on. Sure Jimmy and Taj have been good defenders, but Towns and Wiggins have historically rated as some of the poorest the game has to offer and Teague is no defensive savant himself. My main point is Brown isn't working with bad players and making them great defenders. Brad Stevens isn't working with bad players and making them great defenders. They have high end defensive talent and also have good coaching. I don't think a new coach all of a sudden makes us a top 10 defense. We aren't working with the same defensive talent they have. We have 1 top defensive talent and 1 solid defensive talent. Can we be better? Absolutely, but it's not all Thibs. Basic fundamental help defense from KAT and Wiggins would go just as far as a new coach.

Some good points, Kahns. But then what the hell was Thibs the PBO doing signing Teague and Crawford, knowing how poor they've been defensively during their careers? Why did he give Gorgui the big, long extension? Why did he give Wiggins the max deal? So to the extent Thibs isn't held accountable as beach coach, he's accountable as PBO.

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Sixers just showed me that you can play good defense without a defensive savant in the middle. They just shut down Miami in the 3rd quarter with only one all-NBA caliber defender in Covington and then a bunch of guys I always thought of as mediocre at best individually. It's amazing how a coach can get guys to play up on that side of the floor!

On the Lowe Post, they had Covington and Simmons as top 10 defenders in the entire league. In fact Covington was 2nd in the league in defensive win shares for guys who played at least 50 games. Simmons was 5, Embiid 6, Reddick 17 and Saric 23. Boston was the only other team stacked to that level with Smart 4, Brown 7, Tatum 8, Horford 9 and Kyrie 25. Philly is a dominant defensive team and it's not all Embiid. He's a DPOY candidate, but they have two guys in Covington and Simmons who are top 10 defenders in the entire league as well.

We have Butler and Taj -- two players who have been top defenders in the League before coming to the MN. Yet, we've one of the worst defensive teams in the League. There's nothing in their past to suggest that Saric, Redick, Tatum, Brown and Kyrie would be top 25 defenders. Actually, Kyrie was known as a terrible defender before joining the Celtics. So as Q said, it comes back to coaching.

There isn't much of a past to look on for Saric, Tatum and Brown and JJ has always been a solid defender. Kyrie is the only one who is out of place on that list and he's all the way down at 25 so it's not like he's been great. Philly has 3 top 10 defenders in their lineup and Redick and Saric are solid so losing 1 of those top 10 defenders doesn't tank the whole team defense. They still have 2 more top 10 defenders to fall back on. Sure Jimmy and Taj have been good defenders, but Towns and Wiggins have historically rated as some of the poorest the game has to offer and Teague is no defensive savant himself. My main point is Brown isn't working with bad players and making them great defenders. Brad Stevens isn't working with bad players and making them great defenders. They have high end defensive talent and also have good coaching. I don't think a new coach all of a sudden makes us a top 10 defense. We aren't working with the same defensive talent they have. We have 1 top defensive talent and 1 solid defensive talent. Can we be better? Absolutely, but it's not all Thibs. Basic fundamental help defense from KAT and Wiggins would go just as far as a new coach.

Some good points, Kahns. But then what the hell was Thibs the PBO doing signing Teague and Crawford, knowing how poor they've been defensively during their careers? Why did he give Gorgui the big, long extension? Why did he give Wiggins the max deal? So to the extent Thibs isn't held accountable as beach coach, he's accountable as PBO.

This disaster wasn't getting fully turned around in 2 years. Everyone is just thinking way too short term. Teague and Crawford are short-term pieces that he brought in to help us win games. I think it's fair to say so far mission accomplished because we made the playoffs. 2 of our 3 best players are 22 and 23 years old. Why is our title window somehow limited to the next 2 years? Those guys haven't even hit their prime yet. Thibs found a way to help us win now and we still have our two best long-term building pieces. We're built to win games now and in 5 years. Whether that's championship caliber is TBD based on how good KAT and Wiggins become, but expecting 14 years of garbage to be turned around in 2 years is a ridiculous expectation. First it's don't bother competing with GS, etc. and stay young. Then we get Jimmy and it's all of a sudden win in the next 2 years or blow it up. Why can't we just win a bunch of games now and still wait for our young guys to hit their prime before we have championship expectations? Are you expecting Philly to win the title in the next 2 years? If you aren't I don't think it's fair to put the same expectations on our team considering they did the same thing and brought in guys like Redick, Illyasova, Amir Johnson and Belinelli.

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Sixers just showed me that you can play good defense without a defensive savant in the middle. They just shut down Miami in the 3rd quarter with only one all-NBA caliber defender in Covington and then a bunch of guys I always thought of as mediocre at best individually. It's amazing how a coach can get guys to play up on that side of the floor!

On the Lowe Post, they had Covington and Simmons as top 10 defenders in the entire league. In fact Covington was 2nd in the league in defensive win shares for guys who played at least 50 games. Simmons was 5, Embiid 6, Reddick 17 and Saric 23. Boston was the only other team stacked to that level with Smart 4, Brown 7, Tatum 8, Horford 9 and Kyrie 25. Philly is a dominant defensive team and it's not all Embiid. He's a DPOY candidate, but they have two guys in Covington and Simmons who are top 10 defenders in the entire league as well.

We have Butler and Taj -- two players who have been top defenders in the League before coming to the MN. Yet, we've one of the worst defensive teams in the League. There's nothing in their past to suggest that Saric, Redick, Tatum, Brown and Kyrie would be top 25 defenders. Actually, Kyrie was known as a terrible defender before joining the Celtics. So as Q said, it comes back to coaching.

There isn't much of a past to look on for Saric, Tatum and Brown and JJ has always been a solid defender. Kyrie is the only one who is out of place on that list and he's all the way down at 25 so it's not like he's been great. Philly has 3 top 10 defenders in their lineup and Redick and Saric are solid so losing 1 of those top 10 defenders doesn't tank the whole team defense. They still have 2 more top 10 defenders to fall back on. Sure Jimmy and Taj have been good defenders, but Towns and Wiggins have historically rated as some of the poorest the game has to offer and Teague is no defensive savant himself. My main point is Brown isn't working with bad players and making them great defenders. Brad Stevens isn't working with bad players and making them great defenders. They have high end defensive talent and also have good coaching. I don't think a new coach all of a sudden makes us a top 10 defense. We aren't working with the same defensive talent they have. We have 1 top defensive talent and 1 solid defensive talent. Can we be better? Absolutely, but it's not all Thibs. Basic fundamental help defense from KAT and Wiggins would go just as far as a new coach.

Some good points, Kahns. But then what the hell was Thibs the PBO doing signing Teague and Crawford, knowing how poor they've been defensively during their careers? Why did he give Gorgui the big, long extension? Why did he give Wiggins the max deal? So to the extent Thibs isn't held accountable as beach coach, he's accountable as PBO.

This disaster wasn't getting fully turned around in 2 years. Everyone is just thinking way too short term. Teague and Crawford are short-term pieces that he brought in to help us win games. I think it's fair to say so far mission accomplished because we made the playoffs. 2 of our 3 best players are 22 and 23 years old. Why is our title window somehow limited to the next 2 years? Those guys haven't even hit their prime yet. Thibs found a way to help us win now and we still have our two best long-term building pieces. We're built to win games now and in 5 years. Whether that's championship caliber is TBD based on how good KAT and Wiggins become, but expecting 14 years of garbage to be turned around in 2 years is a ridiculous expectation. First it's don't bother competing with GS, etc. and stay young. Then we get Jimmy and it's all of a sudden win in the next 2 years or blow it up. Why can't we just win a bunch of games now and still wait for our young guys to hit their prime before we have championship expectations? Are you expecting Philly to win the title in the next 2 years? If you aren't I don't think it's fair to put the same expectations on our team considering they did the same thing and brought in guys like Redick, Illyasova, Amir Johnson and Belinelli.

I get what your're saying Kahns about still having KAT and Wiggins long term. But a couple things.

First, Thibs hasn't had to turn around 14 years of garbage. He was brought here to build on some really nice assets he inherited from Flip, including KAT, Towns, and Gorgui as well as a high first round pick and lots of cap room. He didn't inherit David Kahn's garbage or Kevin McHale's. Flip already cleaned that stuff out.

Second, Thibs hasn't followed the Sixers' approach. The Sixers approach has been to remain patient with their young core and simply sign some vets to supplement them. Two of the four vets you mentioned weren't acquired until the last 6 weeks of the season. So the Sixers ended up a 3rd seed with 50+ wins with a young core of Simmons, Embiid, Saric and down the stretch, Fultz. The Sixers overall have far fewer years of experience than the Wolves and a much better cap situation. The Wolves traded away two of their talented young players and flipped their top 10 pick last summer for a veteran, Butler, who has averaged 67 games per season over the course of his career and we had no bona fide 2-way wing to fill in while he was out. Not surprisingly, he missed a lot of games this season. Instead of the 1-year $20 million deal Redick received from the Sixers, Teague got a 3-year $57 million deal. Then there's the two-year deal to the 38-year old defensive sieve Crawford.

In contrast to the Sixers who finished 3rd with over 50 wins, we finished 8th with 47 and we're financially strapped. But maybe we'll play Houston tough. And next season will be telling. I think we're talented enough to end up a 3rd seed and have a deep playoff run. Whether that happens will depend a lot on what Thibs the PBO does this summer under financially challenging circumstances of his own making and what he does next season as head coach with the players he has signed to bring here or keep. Ultimately, your confidence in Thibs might be rewarded.

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Sixers just showed me that you can play good defense without a defensive savant in the middle. They just shut down Miami in the 3rd quarter with only one all-NBA caliber defender in Covington and then a bunch of guys I always thought of as mediocre at best individually. It's amazing how a coach can get guys to play up on that side of the floor!

On the Lowe Post, they had Covington and Simmons as top 10 defenders in the entire league. In fact Covington was 2nd in the league in defensive win shares for guys who played at least 50 games. Simmons was 5, Embiid 6, Reddick 17 and Saric 23. Boston was the only other team stacked to that level with Smart 4, Brown 7, Tatum 8, Horford 9 and Kyrie 25. Philly is a dominant defensive team and it's not all Embiid. He's a DPOY candidate, but they have two guys in Covington and Simmons who are top 10 defenders in the entire league as well.

We have Butler and Taj -- two players who have been top defenders in the League before coming to the MN. Yet, we've one of the worst defensive teams in the League. There's nothing in their past to suggest that Saric, Redick, Tatum, Brown and Kyrie would be top 25 defenders. Actually, Kyrie was known as a terrible defender before joining the Celtics. So as Q said, it comes back to coaching.

There isn't much of a past to look on for Saric, Tatum and Brown and JJ has always been a solid defender. Kyrie is the only one who is out of place on that list and he's all the way down at 25 so it's not like he's been great. Philly has 3 top 10 defenders in their lineup and Redick and Saric are solid so losing 1 of those top 10 defenders doesn't tank the whole team defense. They still have 2 more top 10 defenders to fall back on. Sure Jimmy and Taj have been good defenders, but Towns and Wiggins have historically rated as some of the poorest the game has to offer and Teague is no defensive savant himself. My main point is Brown isn't working with bad players and making them great defenders. Brad Stevens isn't working with bad players and making them great defenders. They have high end defensive talent and also have good coaching. I don't think a new coach all of a sudden makes us a top 10 defense. We aren't working with the same defensive talent they have. We have 1 top defensive talent and 1 solid defensive talent. Can we be better? Absolutely, but it's not all Thibs. Basic fundamental help defense from KAT and Wiggins would go just as far as a new coach.

Some good points, Kahns. But then what the hell was Thibs the PBO doing signing Teague and Crawford, knowing how poor they've been defensively during their careers? Why did he give Gorgui the big, long extension? Why did he give Wiggins the max deal? So to the extent Thibs isn't held accountable as beach coach, he's accountable as PBO.

This disaster wasn't getting fully turned around in 2 years. Everyone is just thinking way too short term. Teague and Crawford are short-term pieces that he brought in to help us win games. I think it's fair to say so far mission accomplished because we made the playoffs. 2 of our 3 best players are 22 and 23 years old. Why is our title window somehow limited to the next 2 years? Those guys haven't even hit their prime yet. Thibs found a way to help us win now and we still have our two best long-term building pieces. We're built to win games now and in 5 years. Whether that's championship caliber is TBD based on how good KAT and Wiggins become, but expecting 14 years of garbage to be turned around in 2 years is a ridiculous expectation. First it's don't bother competing with GS, etc. and stay young. Then we get Jimmy and it's all of a sudden win in the next 2 years or blow it up. Why can't we just win a bunch of games now and still wait for our young guys to hit their prime before we have championship expectations? Are you expecting Philly to win the title in the next 2 years? If you aren't I don't think it's fair to put the same expectations on our team considering they did the same thing and brought in guys like Redick, Illyasova, Amir Johnson and Belinelli.

I get what your're saying Kahns about still having KAT and Wiggins long term. But a couple things.

First, Thibs hasn't had to turn around 14 years of garbage. He was brought here to build on some really nice assets he inherited from Flip, including KAT, Towns, and Gorgui as well as a high first round pick and lots of cap room. He didn't inherit David Kahn's garbage or Kevin McHale's. Flip already cleaned that stuff out.

Second, Thibs hasn't followed the Sixers' approach. The Sixers approach has been to remain patient with their young core and simply sign some vets to supplement them. Two of the four vets you mentioned weren't acquired until the last 6 weeks of the season. So the Sixers ended up a 3rd seed with 50+ wins with a young core of Simmons, Embiid, Saric and down the stretch, Fultz. The Sixers overall have far fewer years of experience than the Wolves and a much better cap situation. The Wolves traded away two of their talented young players and flipped their top 10 pick last summer for a veteran, Butler, who has averaged 67 games per season over the course of his career and we had no bona fide 2-way wing to fill in while he was out. Not surprisingly, he missed a lot of games this season. Instead of the 1-year $20 million deal Redick received from the Sixers, Teague got a 3-year $57 million deal. Then there's the two-year deal to the 38-year old defensive sieve Crawford.

In contrast to the Sixers who finished 3rd with over 50 wins, we finished 8th with 47 and we're financially strapped. But maybe we'll play Houston tough. And next season will be telling. I think we're talented enough to end up a 3rd seed and have a deep playoff run. Whether that happens will depend a lot on what Thibs the PBO does this summer under financially challenging circumstances of his own making and what he does next season as head coach with the players he has signed to bring here or keep. Ultimately, your confidence in Thibs might be rewarded.

I'm not confident in Thibs, nor do I like him. But the guy has been criticized to no end on this board and he can't win no matter what he does. Acquire an All-NBA player, win 47 games and make the playoffs in a stacked conference. Not good enough. Have no immediate and obvious road to the finals, but have 2 of the 15 best building blocks in the league. Failure. It's title or bust on this forum which frankly is baffling considering we couldn't even make the playoffs for 14 years. Did we sign Lebron or am I missing something? You guys won't even give him the time to show you if he can fix things and get us to the next level. You just want to go from 0 to contender instantly or he's a bad coach and GM. He played the young guys and they sucked in year 1. He acquired good players and we almost won 50 games in year 2. Why is the automatic assumption that it's all downhill from here? That doesn't add up.

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Sixers just showed me that you can play good defense without a defensive savant in the middle. They just shut down Miami in the 3rd quarter with only one all-NBA caliber defender in Covington and then a bunch of guys I always thought of as mediocre at best individually. It's amazing how a coach can get guys to play up on that side of the floor!

On the Lowe Post, they had Covington and Simmons as top 10 defenders in the entire league. In fact Covington was 2nd in the league in defensive win shares for guys who played at least 50 games. Simmons was 5, Embiid 6, Reddick 17 and Saric 23. Boston was the only other team stacked to that level with Smart 4, Brown 7, Tatum 8, Horford 9 and Kyrie 25. Philly is a dominant defensive team and it's not all Embiid. He's a DPOY candidate, but they have two guys in Covington and Simmons who are top 10 defenders in the entire league as well.

We have Butler and Taj -- two players who have been top defenders in the League before coming to the MN. Yet, we've one of the worst defensive teams in the League. There's nothing in their past to suggest that Saric, Redick, Tatum, Brown and Kyrie would be top 25 defenders. Actually, Kyrie was known as a terrible defender before joining the Celtics. So as Q said, it comes back to coaching.

There isn't much of a past to look on for Saric, Tatum and Brown and JJ has always been a solid defender. Kyrie is the only one who is out of place on that list and he's all the way down at 25 so it's not like he's been great. Philly has 3 top 10 defenders in their lineup and Redick and Saric are solid so losing 1 of those top 10 defenders doesn't tank the whole team defense. They still have 2 more top 10 defenders to fall back on. Sure Jimmy and Taj have been good defenders, but Towns and Wiggins have historically rated as some of the poorest the game has to offer and Teague is no defensive savant himself. My main point is Brown isn't working with bad players and making them great defenders. Brad Stevens isn't working with bad players and making them great defenders. They have high end defensive talent and also have good coaching. I don't think a new coach all of a sudden makes us a top 10 defense. We aren't working with the same defensive talent they have. We have 1 top defensive talent and 1 solid defensive talent. Can we be better? Absolutely, but it's not all Thibs. Basic fundamental help defense from KAT and Wiggins would go just as far as a new coach.

Some good points, Kahns. But then what the hell was Thibs the PBO doing signing Teague and Crawford, knowing how poor they've been defensively during their careers? Why did he give Gorgui the big, long extension? Why did he give Wiggins the max deal? So to the extent Thibs isn't held accountable as beach coach, he's accountable as PBO.

This disaster wasn't getting fully turned around in 2 years. Everyone is just thinking way too short term. Teague and Crawford are short-term pieces that he brought in to help us win games. I think it's fair to say so far mission accomplished because we made the playoffs. 2 of our 3 best players are 22 and 23 years old. Why is our title window somehow limited to the next 2 years? Those guys haven't even hit their prime yet. Thibs found a way to help us win now and we still have our two best long-term building pieces. We're built to win games now and in 5 years. Whether that's championship caliber is TBD based on how good KAT and Wiggins become, but expecting 14 years of garbage to be turned around in 2 years is a ridiculous expectation. First it's don't bother competing with GS, etc. and stay young. Then we get Jimmy and it's all of a sudden win in the next 2 years or blow it up. Why can't we just win a bunch of games now and still wait for our young guys to hit their prime before we have championship expectations? Are you expecting Philly to win the title in the next 2 years? If you aren't I don't think it's fair to put the same expectations on our team considering they did the same thing and brought in guys like Redick, Illyasova, Amir Johnson and Belinelli.

I get what your're saying Kahns about still having KAT and Wiggins long term. But a couple things.

First, Thibs hasn't had to turn around 14 years of garbage. He was brought here to build on some really nice assets he inherited from Flip, including KAT, Towns, and Gorgui as well as a high first round pick and lots of cap room. He didn't inherit David Kahn's garbage or Kevin McHale's. Flip already cleaned that stuff out.

Second, Thibs hasn't followed the Sixers' approach. The Sixers approach has been to remain patient with their young core and simply sign some vets to supplement them. Two of the four vets you mentioned weren't acquired until the last 6 weeks of the season. So the Sixers ended up a 3rd seed with 50+ wins with a young core of Simmons, Embiid, Saric and down the stretch, Fultz. The Sixers overall have far fewer years of experience than the Wolves and a much better cap situation. The Wolves traded away two of their talented young players and flipped their top 10 pick last summer for a veteran, Butler, who has averaged 67 games per season over the course of his career and we had no bona fide 2-way wing to fill in while he was out. Not surprisingly, he missed a lot of games this season. Instead of the 1-year $20 million deal Redick received from the Sixers, Teague got a 3-year $57 million deal. Then there's the two-year deal to the 38-year old defensive sieve Crawford.

In contrast to the Sixers who finished 3rd with over 50 wins, we finished 8th with 47 and we're financially strapped. But maybe we'll play Houston tough. And next season will be telling. I think we're talented enough to end up a 3rd seed and have a deep playoff run. Whether that happens will depend a lot on what Thibs the PBO does this summer under financially challenging circumstances of his own making and what he does next season as head coach with the players he has signed to bring here or keep. Ultimately, your confidence in Thibs might be rewarded.

I'm not confident in Thibs, nor do I like him. But the guy has been criticized to no end on this board and he can't win no matter what he does. Acquire an All-NBA player, win 47 games and make the playoffs in a stacked conference. Not good enough. Have no immediate and obvious road to the finals, but have 2 of the 15 best building blocks in the league. Failure. It's title or bust on this forum which frankly is baffling considering we couldn't even make the playoffs for 14 years. Did we sign Lebron or am I missing something? You guys won't even give him the time to show you if he can fix things and get us to the next level. You just want to go from 0 to contender instantly or he's a bad coach and GM. He played the young guys and they sucked in year 1. He acquired good players and we almost won 50 games in year 2. Why is the automatic assumption that it's all downhill from here? That doesn't add up.

I agree with you wholeheartedly Kahns. I get frustrated at times with thibs no doubt but give it time. Now I do think that the sixers are better than us. But if we were in the east I have a feeling the narrative on this board would be different. Have a feeling that some of us would be taking ourselves into a possible Eastern conference champs scenario.


It's not thibs fault that Embiid is better than Towns or simmons is better than Wiggins. The process worked they hit on 2 game changing talents with a possible 3rd in fultz. They have developed one steal player in 6 years and that's ROCO. It's not like they are popping out these hidden gems. Also got to remember they had a lot of failure with MCW, Noel and Okafor. Also traded picks for a player in Booker who they cut later in the season. They were bailed out by 2 franchise level talents.

This conversation about Minnesota vs. Philadelphia isn't even close if Andrew Wiggins was anywhere near the player he's supposed to be. That's the harsh truth in this. Instead, he's undoubtedly regressed this season and that has prompted the ideas that he should be traded for a more proven player or even an attempt at another draft pick. That's not supposed to happen with a 23-year old cornerstone, but it goes to show that star players aren't guaranteed in the NBA.

Not to make this another thread about Wiggins specifically because there are other areas where this team has come up short, but the ceiling of this team rests on his shoulders, in my opinion. Whether it's him improving considerably or trading him in a package for a game-changer -- Kawhi Leonard or Kemba Walker -- our future trajectory is in some way centered around the 6'8 forward from Kansas.