Minnesota Sports Forum

TheGrey08 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:
The frustrating thing for me is just not knowing who to listen to or take advice from. Who can we really trust?

Ignore the media and politicians. Listen to the trusted scientific and medical community with proven history. The doctors and nurses who were working 60, 80, 100 hours a week trying to save lives. I still don't understand how politicians made Dr Fauci so polarizing. He has worked for SIX Presidents starting with Reagan lol.

Most of the claims I've seen coming from covid vaccine opposition (the ones that actively spread misinformation, false claims, conspiracies, etc) try to point to some "expert" that when you do a quick google search of them, find out they are not an expert at all and have little to no fact behind them.

I think Fauci is pure evil. Last guy I would listen to.

Camden wrote:

TheGrey08 wrote:Conservatives may not be directly trying to take away anyone's rights on this issue, but they will when it suits them or their religious beliefs so lets not act like their are angels. After-all we're not far removed from the right trying to stop 2 adults from getting married when they had ZERO effect on their lives. Point is, the right's record on human rights is very muddy these days and to cover both sides, the far left tries to infringe on rights like free speech.

The left has been going at big pharma, big business, etc for years now so lets not go there with that man. The left wants the ability to negotiate drug prices while the right is against it. So who isn't supporting big pharma? Both sides have corruption in certain areas. They have too much money and power, which I have to point out in large part is due to the rights support of big money in politics and resistance to get rid of it (Citizens United as one example).

Lets forget about the covid vaccine for a minute. Are there any vaccine mandates you support? Specifically MMR and other vaccines for the most deadly diseases that I'm sure nearly all of us have been vaccinated for.

Much of what you said here just isn't true and is instead regurgitated nonsense from mainstream media.

It's pretty easy to identify those who hang on to the words of CNN and MSDNC

FNG wrote:

Camden wrote:

FNG wrote:

Camden wrote:

FNG wrote:Politics led otherwise-smart liberals to the wrong conclusion 20 years ago, and are leading otherwise-smart conservatives to the wrong conclusion today. It's sad, and we need to be better than that.

FNG, conservatives aren't wrong here. And for the sake of accuracy, I'll reiterate that their positions are not anti-vaccine or anti-mask, but they are anti-mandate and in support of individual liberties. There are no conservatives banning or speaking against the right to wear masks or receive vaccines. Zero. Those are personal decisions that each American can make for themselves (and their children if they are parents). Furthermore, those are decisions that should not determine whether or not you receive employment or a proper education. Those are the battles that the conservative side is having. The right is fighting for the American people to continue with their lives and receive the medical treatment that they deem necessary for themselves. The left is fighting for... big pharma, media conglomerates, diminishing basic human rights of Americans, and mandatory medical treatment for a virus regardless of natural immunity. You're right. It is sad and everyone should be better than that.

No, I get it, Cam...this is anti-mandate. But I'm curious about how you feel about other mandates the government has forced on us in the interest of keeping us safe. What are your thoughts about speed limits, stoplights and stop signs, smoking limitations, Patriot Act regulations, etc.? All of these things restrict our freedoms, but I would argue that it was only when we became so polarized as a country politically (perhaps the turn of this century) that we began to complain about common sense measures designed to keep us safe. The data tells us that these restrictions keep us safe (even though liberals whined about the Patriot Act and conservatives largely whine about mask/vax mandates), and polling tells us that who we voted for correlates strongly to whether we support a government regulation or not. I find that very disappointing, and very sad.

I guess I'm left wondering why you're comparing traffic laws to mandatory medical treatment. Does that not seem like an odd comparison to you?

Not at all. Aren't they both government-sponsored freedom-reducing measures designed to keep us safe, even though a portion of the population thinks we would be just fine without them...just like the Patriot Act and smoking restrictions? There needs to be a cost/benefit analysis every time a regulation is put into place, and as irritating as some of the mandates I cite are to some of us (as it appears vax and mask mandates are to you), I believe a majority of us believe that ending this pandemic is much more important than the perceived loss of freedom some feel from the new mandates (or restrictions).

That's what I expected. Traffic codes are essentially legal guidelines to follow to promote safe transportation from one place to another. They also vary from state to state though there are obvious similarities. This isn't that. A more apt comparison would be the CDC guidelines to wash hands, don't touch your face, wear masks, social distance, etc. The risks of not doing so could be significant, but in all reality you might be fine totally ignoring it. We have all broken traffic codes. The risks of doing so are receiving citations and/or getting into car accidents. The risks of not following CDC guidelines could be getting sick and potentially infecting those you've been in contact with. In either case, the outcome might be unaffected.

Where this entire conversation takes a turn, however, is once you support mandatory medical treatment to gain employment, receive in-school education, and involvement in everyday society -- while also ignoring natural immunity for millions -- you put the land of the free and home of the brave on the fast track to becoming a communist state.

I'll also push back on your final sentence. The majority of this country wants to return to their normal lives instead of playing pandemic. The public has grown tired of various rules and mandates. They want to get back to work and provide for their families. They want to enjoy the company of friends and loved ones. Their quality of life has been suppressed for almost two years now. People are just over it and are willing to let the cards fall where they may.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Camden wrote:

TheGrey08 wrote:Conservatives may not be directly trying to take away anyone's rights on this issue, but they will when it suits them or their religious beliefs so lets not act like their are angels. After-all we're not far removed from the right trying to stop 2 adults from getting married when they had ZERO effect on their lives. Point is, the right's record on human rights is very muddy these days and to cover both sides, the far left tries to infringe on rights like free speech.

The left has been going at big pharma, big business, etc for years now so lets not go there with that man. The left wants the ability to negotiate drug prices while the right is against it. So who isn't supporting big pharma? Both sides have corruption in certain areas. They have too much money and power, which I have to point out in large part is due to the rights support of big money in politics and resistance to get rid of it (Citizens United as one example).

Lets forget about the covid vaccine for a minute. Are there any vaccine mandates you support? Specifically MMR and other vaccines for the most deadly diseases that I'm sure nearly all of us have been vaccinated for.

Much of what you said here just isn't true and is instead regurgitated nonsense from mainstream media.

It's pretty easy to identify those who hang on to the words of CNN and MSDNC

I rarely watch mainstream media, but sure it couldn't possibly be based on the shit I've seen with my own eyes. Once against though, a non rebuttal so here.

Abortion bans are anti human rights of the woman involved
Anti gay marriage was anti human rights
Democrats wanting the ability to negotiate drug prices is not new
Some Democrats have gone at big business, but yes there is lobbying bs on both sides.
Citizens United flooded more money into politics and is supported by the right
Way too much money and power in the 2 political parties, I mean duh

Camden wrote:

FNG wrote:
Not at all. Aren't they both government-sponsored freedom-reducing measures designed to keep us safe, even though a portion of the population thinks we would be just fine without them...just like the Patriot Act and smoking restrictions? There needs to be a cost/benefit analysis every time a regulation is put into place, and as irritating as some of the mandates I cite are to some of us (as it appears vax and mask mandates are to you), I believe a majority of us believe that ending this pandemic is much more important than the perceived loss of freedom some feel from the new mandates (or restrictions).

That's what I expected. Traffic codes are essentially legal guidelines to follow to promote safe transportation from one place to another. They also vary from state to state though there are obvious similarities. This isn't that. A more apt comparison would be the CDC guidelines to wash hands, don't touch your face, wear masks, social distance, etc. The risks of not doing so could be significant, but in all reality you might be fine totally ignoring it. We have all broken traffic codes. The risks of doing so are receiving citations and/or getting into car accidents. The risks of not following CDC guidelines could be getting sick and potentially infecting those you've been in contact with. In either case, the outcome might be unaffected.

Where this entire conversation takes a turn, however, is once you support mandatory medical treatment to gain employment, receive in-school education, and involvement in everyday society -- while also ignoring natural immunity for millions -- you put the land of the free and home of the brave on the fast track to becoming a communist state.

I'll also push back on your final sentence. The majority of this country wants to return to their normal lives instead of playing pandemic. The public has grown tired of various rules and mandates. They want to get back to work and provide for their families. They want to enjoy the company of friends and loved ones. Their quality of life has been suppressed for almost two years now. People are just over it and are willing to let the cards fall where they may.

Mandates are certainly a slippery slope and we have to be careful with them for sure. Where do you draw the line though? Do you support vaccine mandates for the most deadly of diseases that have the potential to wipe out huge chunks of the population? I don't want to assume so I'm asking an honest question to have a better idea of where you stand on it. Truly curious where you would draw the line.

I have no issue with an employer/business/school requiring vaccines or masks for certain situations that are backed by solid science. They have a duty to protect their staff/customers and when staff get sick it impacts their bottom line. As far as broad mandates, the Covid vaccine is closer to the grey area for me and I just don't have a great answer for it. On one hand it's already mutated in a stronger way once so there is natural worry of it doing so again, especially if it did in fact originate in a lab. On the other I come back to where do we draw the line. You also have a good point about people with natural immunity from having Covid. Personally, I'd rather double down and get the vaccine as a booster to my natural immunity (I don't know if I've had Covid yet, but am fairly confident my wife did 5-6 days after her 2nd dose. She had a rough time as it was and I don't want to imagine how it would have been pre vaccine).

Lastly, I'm not one to shit on other people's rights and I just want what's best for the greater cause within reason. I want to get back to normal and see restaurants and things at full capacity. I want people to be able to stop having to worry about being around their parents & grandparents, to be happy, healthy, considerate and free. Compromise and balance are everything.

Camden wrote:

FNG wrote:

Camden wrote:

FNG wrote:

Camden wrote:

FNG wrote:Politics led otherwise-smart liberals to the wrong conclusion 20 years ago, and are leading otherwise-smart conservatives to the wrong conclusion today. It's sad, and we need to be better than that.

FNG, conservatives aren't wrong here. And for the sake of accuracy, I'll reiterate that their positions are not anti-vaccine or anti-mask, but they are anti-mandate and in support of individual liberties. There are no conservatives banning or speaking against the right to wear masks or receive vaccines. Zero. Those are personal decisions that each American can make for themselves (and their children if they are parents). Furthermore, those are decisions that should not determine whether or not you receive employment or a proper education. Those are the battles that the conservative side is having. The right is fighting for the American people to continue with their lives and receive the medical treatment that they deem necessary for themselves. The left is fighting for... big pharma, media conglomerates, diminishing basic human rights of Americans, and mandatory medical treatment for a virus regardless of natural immunity. You're right. It is sad and everyone should be better than that.

No, I get it, Cam...this is anti-mandate. But I'm curious about how you feel about other mandates the government has forced on us in the interest of keeping us safe. What are your thoughts about speed limits, stoplights and stop signs, smoking limitations, Patriot Act regulations, etc.? All of these things restrict our freedoms, but I would argue that it was only when we became so polarized as a country politically (perhaps the turn of this century) that we began to complain about common sense measures designed to keep us safe. The data tells us that these restrictions keep us safe (even though liberals whined about the Patriot Act and conservatives largely whine about mask/vax mandates), and polling tells us that who we voted for correlates strongly to whether we support a government regulation or not. I find that very disappointing, and very sad.

I guess I'm left wondering why you're comparing traffic laws to mandatory medical treatment. Does that not seem like an odd comparison to you?

Not at all. Aren't they both government-sponsored freedom-reducing measures designed to keep us safe, even though a portion of the population thinks we would be just fine without them...just like the Patriot Act and smoking restrictions? There needs to be a cost/benefit analysis every time a regulation is put into place, and as irritating as some of the mandates I cite are to some of us (as it appears vax and mask mandates are to you), I believe a majority of us believe that ending this pandemic is much more important than the perceived loss of freedom some feel from the new mandates (or restrictions).

That's what I expected. Traffic codes are essentially legal guidelines to follow to promote safe transportation from one place to another. They also vary from state to state though there are obvious similarities. This isn't that. A more apt comparison would be the CDC guidelines to wash hands, don't touch your face, wear masks, social distance, etc. The risks of not doing so could be significant, but in all reality you might be fine totally ignoring it. We have all broken traffic codes. The risks of doing so are receiving citations and/or getting into car accidents. The risks of not following CDC guidelines could be getting sick and potentially infecting those you've been in contact with. In either case, the outcome might be unaffected.

Where this entire conversation takes a turn, however, is once you support mandatory medical treatment to gain employment, receive in-school education, and involvement in everyday society -- while also ignoring natural immunity for millions -- you put the land of the free and home of the brave on the fast track to becoming a communist state.

I'll also push back on your final sentence. The majority of this country wants to return to their normal lives instead of playing pandemic. The public has grown tired of various rules and mandates. They want to get back to work and provide for their families. They want to enjoy the company of friends and loved ones. Their quality of life has been suppressed for almost two years now. People are just over it and are willing to let the cards fall where they may.

Cam, you and I agree that the majority of this country want to return to normal lives. Who wouldn't want to? We disagree with the most effective means to get there though. I believe there is documented history with our country eradicating the horrible polio epidemic by mandating vaccines as well as George Washington doing the same with smallpox, and that's why I support measures to require vaccination and masking. And while your statement that the public has grown tired of various rules and mandates is likely true (I know I have...as I said, I've been tired of the Patriot Act mandate for 20 years now, but I still begrudgingly accept it because it keeps us safe), that doesn't mean that the public doesn't support them- not liking something and still supporting it are not mutually exclusive. Think broccoli. Here is Friday's polling on the matter:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/354983/majority-supports-biden-covid-vaccine-mandates.aspx

By a very strong majority...much stronger than Biden's presidential results by the way, the public supports Biden's proposed measures. Doesn't mean they like them...just that they recognize that the inconvenience of them is far better than the alternative.

(Damn, I really hope the response I get from those on the minority side here isn't "you can't trust polling...Gallup clearly has an agenda here". The refusal to accept data from reputable sources when it doesn't fit one's narrative will be one of the unfortunate legacies of the Trump presidency. It's almost impossible to have a fact-based discussion these days when one side or the other refuses to accept facts. And yes...both sides can be guilty of this.)

FNG is missing out on the merits of broccoli.

Just sayin...

Define "reputable" sources? FNG, your point may have held more weight in the prior decade. Polling means very little to me and likely many others given that they too have been included in the vicious propaganda machine that is our media within the last five years or so. Did the prior presidential administration teach you absolutely nothing?

Camden wrote:Define "reputable" sources? FNG, your point may have held more weight in the prior decade. Polling means very little to me and likely many others given that they too have been included in the vicious propaganda machine that is our media within the last five years or so. Did the prior presidential administration teach you absolutely nothing?

Polling has been a shit show. Totally politically controlled. They are basically meaningless at this time.

Two Timberwolves players are in the process of being vaccinated, and once they receive their second dose the entire team will be fully-vaccinated

Per Dane Moore