Minnesota Sports Forum

BloopOracle wrote:I agree that Thibs needs to hold starters more accountable but I don't think there is a coach in the league that could fix KAT's defensive woes....he needs to do it himself and I don't know if he can. Starting to get very scared, he is still delusional enough to think he's better than he really is. Can't wait for another interview where Karl talks about how he needs to trust his instincts, that's the last fucking thing he needs to do.

Going off that Butler did what a true star does after a loss like that. He flat out said he got whooped by Booker and needs to be better.

longstrangetrip wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:If Thibs is the problem every time we lose does that mean he's the solution every time we win? That would make him the solution 7 times and only the problem 5. We've beat good teams this year. A loss like this 100% is on the players for not showing up, playing selfishly and having 0 BBall IQ on the court. It's a players league and yet our coach is always responsible for losses and the players always get credit for the wins. At what point is it on Towns and Teague and Butler and Wiggins for losing a game like this? For losing like they did in Indiana and Detroit? If Thibs can't get a team to play defense and play hard who the hell is going to? I just don't see how a different coach is going to squeeze more effort out of these guys. At that point you are just brining in an offensive guy and hope you can score 130 a game because that's the only way you're gonna win. I'm not a Thibs guy, but I just don't understand how guys not playing hard is his fault. Not his players fault. His fault. He could probably do a little more like bench guys more often. If that doesn't work does he still get blamed?

I know I'm hard on Thibs, Khans, but I believe we are winning games despite his coaching, not because of it. We are still playing horrible defense in most of our wins, but are so offensively talented that we overcome it. Defense is about accountability, and Thibs demands none.

So he gets no credit for the offense either? He's responsible for all the bad and none of the good? Forget that some guys are playing well under him like Tyus, Belly and Taj. He just gets no credit for anything I guess. It's amazing we can find the court with such an incompetent coach.

I agree with crazy and bloop that our defensive woes are vary much about KAT (and kek's on/off stats in the statistics thread further bear this out). And I also agree with Bloop that no coach is talented enough to completely fix KAT. But I also think that Thibs can do a lot more to improve KAT. KAT was considered a supurb defender in college...albeit in limited minutes. He plays defense with a sense of entitlement that he has not earned...and Thibs has enabled this attitude by allowing him to play big minutes despite his poor on/off stats. Acountability! Play G and even Cole more when they are both healthy. Who knows what kind of message KAT might receive if Thibs yanked him every time he did something lazy or stupid on defense.

longstrangetrip wrote:I agree with crazy and bloop that our defensive woes are vary much about KAT (and kek's on/off stats in the statistics thread further bear this out). And I also agree with Bloop that no coach is talented enough to completely fix KAT. But I also think that Thibs can do a lot more to improve KAT. KAT was considered a supurb defender in college...albeit in limited minutes. He plays defense with a sense of entitlement that he has not earned...and Thibs has enabled this attitude by allowing him to play big minutes despite his poor on/off stats. Acountability! Play G and even Cole more when they are both healthy. Who knows what kind of message KAT might receive if Thibs yanked him every time he did something lazy or stupid on defense.

It's a fine line to walk. An unhappy KAT can tank this whole operation. If KAT doesn't think he's doing anything wrong and you start benching him that might kill what little effort he has in him.

khans2k5 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I agree with crazy and bloop that our defensive woes are vary much about KAT (and kek's on/off stats in the statistics thread further bear this out). And I also agree with Bloop that no coach is talented enough to completely fix KAT. But I also think that Thibs can do a lot more to improve KAT. KAT was considered a supurb defender in college...albeit in limited minutes. He plays defense with a sense of entitlement that he has not earned...and Thibs has enabled this attitude by allowing him to play big minutes despite his poor on/off stats. Acountability! Play G and even Cole more when they are both healthy. Who knows what kind of message KAT might receive if Thibs yanked him every time he did something lazy or stupid on defense.

It's a fine line to walk. An unhappy KAT can tank this whole operation. If KAT doesn't think he's doing anything wrong and you start benching him that might kill what little effort he has in him.

If KAT is that mentally weak then trade him before his value falls further.

TheSP wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I agree with crazy and bloop that our defensive woes are vary much about KAT (and kek's on/off stats in the statistics thread further bear this out). And I also agree with Bloop that no coach is talented enough to completely fix KAT. But I also think that Thibs can do a lot more to improve KAT. KAT was considered a supurb defender in college...albeit in limited minutes. He plays defense with a sense of entitlement that he has not earned...and Thibs has enabled this attitude by allowing him to play big minutes despite his poor on/off stats. Acountability! Play G and even Cole more when they are both healthy. Who knows what kind of message KAT might receive if Thibs yanked him every time he did something lazy or stupid on defense.

It's a fine line to walk. An unhappy KAT can tank this whole operation. If KAT doesn't think he's doing anything wrong and you start benching him that might kill what little effort he has in him.

If KAT is that mentally weak then trade him before his value falls further.

It's pretty obvious he is mentally weak. He only tries hard when it benefits him. He doesn't give a shit defensively. He doesn't give a shit about his teammates and tries to put it all on his shoulders. Like I've said a thousand times and probably will a thousand more. He's in his own world and doesn't seem to be in touch with the reality of our team and what needs to improve.

I agree with crazy and kek about KAT (and kek's on/off stats in the statistics thread further bear this out).

khans2k5 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I agree with crazy and bloop that our defensive woes are vary much about KAT (and kek's on/off stats in the statistics thread further bear this out). And I also agree with Bloop that no coach is talented enough to completely fix KAT. But I also think that Thibs can do a lot more to improve KAT. KAT was considered a supurb defender in college...albeit in limited minutes. He plays defense with a sense of entitlement that he has not earned...and Thibs has enabled this attitude by allowing him to play big minutes despite his poor on/off stats. Acountability! Play G and even Cole more when they are both healthy. Who knows what kind of message KAT might receive if Thibs yanked him every time he did something lazy or stupid on defense.

It's a fine line to walk. An unhappy KAT can tank this whole operation. If KAT doesn't think he's doing anything wrong and you start benching him that might kill what little effort he has in him.

One thing I like about KAT (in addition to being a gifted offensive player) is that he is smart. He is privy to the same stats that we are, and has a lot more time to review them. He has to see how poorly he ranks defensively. But you can earn a max contract by just playing great offense (I'm looking at you, Carmelo and K-Love), and as long as Thibs keeps playing him big minutes, where is the incentive to play harder on defense? I see KAT as a high quality guy who wants to win...I don't see him tanking this team if Thibs does the right thing and starts making him accountable.

longstrangetrip wrote:I agree with crazy and kek about KAT (and kek's on/off stats in the statistics thread further bear this out).

khans2k5 wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:I agree with crazy and bloop that our defensive woes are vary much about KAT (and kek's on/off stats in the statistics thread further bear this out). And I also agree with Bloop that no coach is talented enough to completely fix KAT. But I also think that Thibs can do a lot more to improve KAT. KAT was considered a supurb defender in college...albeit in limited minutes. He plays defense with a sense of entitlement that he has not earned...and Thibs has enabled this attitude by allowing him to play big minutes despite his poor on/off stats. Acountability! Play G and even Cole more when they are both healthy. Who knows what kind of message KAT might receive if Thibs yanked him every time he did something lazy or stupid on defense.

It's a fine line to walk. An unhappy KAT can tank this whole operation. If KAT doesn't think he's doing anything wrong and you start benching him that might kill what little effort he has in him.

One thing I like about KAT (in addition to being a gifted offensive player) is that he is smart. He is privy to the same stats that we are, and has a lot more time to review them. He has to see how poorly he ranks defensively. But you can earn a max contract by just playing great offense (I'm looking at you, Carmelo and K-Love), and as long as Thibs keeps playing him big minutes, where is the incentive to play harder on defense? I see KAT as a high quality guy who wants to win...I don't see him tanking this team if Thibs does the right thing and starts making him accountable.

I agree with LST that Thibs has to hold KAT and everyone else accountable. And playing time is a key tool for holding a player accountable. But Kahns is right about the fine line Thibs has to walk with a young talented player like KAT. It's not that KAT would tank if he feels he's not being treated fairly. The issue Thibs has to consider is the concern he might bolt. Thibs knows that, defense or no defense, just about every other team in the League would line up to offer KAT a max deal if he doesn't re-sign with us. If Thibs starts benching KAT for poor defense, KAT could legimately complain that Thibs didn't cut Andrew's minutes for his consistently terrible defense and lack of hustle last season. Thibs also has to consider that benching KAT leaves the Wolves without their best scorer, best 3-point shooter and by far best rebounder.

Having said all that, I think the problem goes much deeper than using playing time to hold KAT and others accountable. It's not just KAT who's playing poor defensively this season or last. It's almost the entire team, except perhaps Gorgui and Taj. As we all know, the Wolves remain second from the bottom defensively in the NBA so far this season after being one of the worst defensive teams in the League last season. I'm sorry, it simply can't be that we somehow ended up with a roster of the League's worst defensive players, especially when you consider the success many of our players have had defensively with other team or at different levels (Butler/Taj with the Bulls, KAT in college). Would I gladly swap KAT or Wiggins for the Greek Freak? Absolutely. But Houston's a top 2 team in the West even though their best player is a terrible individual defender. Somehow it works.

Defense depends at least as much on team concepts and coordination as it does individual defensive ability. Teams are shaped by coaches largely in practice and game preparation. Somehow, Thibs either isn't getting through to his players in practice or the schemes he's teaching don't work. Maybe a combination of both. And it's not just our defense. Yes, we're one of the higher scoring teams in the League. But I come back to Larry Brown's recent statement that, in today's NBA, the best defense is efficient offense. That's especially true if your individual playes aren't gifted defensively. Our lack of 3-point shooting and fast-break points hurts our defense. Having our entire team inside the arc on the offensive end obviously makes it more difficult for our guys to get back defensively and guard the quick-strike offenses in today's NBA. And Thibs' failure to rely more on the bench leaves our starters often too gassed to play with the energy necessary to defend effectively. Last night was a case in point.

So with lots of finger-pointing to go around, I'm pointing 7 of my 10 fingers at our head coach. Our talent has gotten us to a 7-5 record after 12 games. But I'm waiting to see the team gel into something greater than the sum of its parts like the Celtics, Spurs, Rockets, and Grizzlies. So yes, I'm holding Thibs primarily responsible for what I view as our continuing underachievement. Others can disagree and I respect that. But as much as I want Thibs to succeed (because it means the success of my team), I remain even more skeptical of him than I was when he was hired. And of course, I didn't want us to hire him in the first place.

Man there is a lot of negativity for a 7-5 team. If we can stay around 500 on the road and have a healthy win percentage at home we're going to be at or above our Vegas line. The defensive stats are dissappointing but indicative of a team finding their way. KAT has been awful, but he continues to show flashes on the defensive end every game. We usually put together one or two great defensive quarters a game, which is more than we could say last year through the first 40 games. If 7-5 is horrible sign me up. For contrast's sake I find it easy to get behind this team. The games minus the 3 blowouts have been engaging with some amazing efforts spread around all of our talent. Everything negative I see on the court is correctable. We aren't getting out worked and our talent is competitive. The problem is the decision making, which I believe will continue to improve once everyone continues to see their role more clearly. Right now those two players seem to be Jimmy and KAT. Unfortunately I feel the ego plays the biggest role with both of these guys. Big game Monday, hopefully a win will cheer you guys up.

That is the solution. Bench the starters and let the backups play more minutes. I understand the bench play against the other bench usually, BUT to make a point. Cut the starters minutes.

The second a Spurs player makes a mistake a boneheaded one, he's pulled from the game. The way you get players to play harder is not let them play.

The thing is too, We have a decent bench FOR ONCE. We do not need to run all the starters big minutes. Have them play less BUT play harder and more aggressive.