Minnesota Sports Forum

Q12543 wrote:God I hate the way Harden plays, but he is so damn good. It's the foul baiting I hate more than anything. There were a couple times the refs didn't fall for his shenanigans (and in one case he got called for the offensive foul after hooking Roberson's arm, then acting like he was the one being fouled).

But just like the rip-through move and jump-into--your defender-on-shot-fakes were in vogue at one time, the latest trick Harden has perfected is to stop on a dime upon dribbling around a screen, then jump into the trailing defender while flailing away on a 3-point shot attempt. God I hate it when that gets called as a foul. Harden isn't the only one that does this, but when a guy as gifted as he is starts resorting to this move, it REALLY bugs the hell out of me.

It's been my ranting cry of late. Harden is the "best" at it. Isaiah Thomas does it coming off screens. Lou Williams does it. Chris Paul. As noted... Rubio does it.

I guarantee it will be the NBA's next "point of emphasis"... next season. But they'll only really call guys like Tyus Jones or CJ Watson for it for a few weeks and then they'll revert to the way it is.

And I'd put money down than an NBA playoff game will be decided by an offensive player drawing contract (initiating contact) 25 - 30 feet away and then get three free throws by going into an (UN)natural shot. Meanwhile... as long as one team has momentum... it's still ok to bludgeon people going to the rim.

I like the pace-and-space game. I dig three pointers. But it's bad for NBA hoops when games are being called so soft 25 feet out. I heard Houston had 13 or 14 fouls while shooting three pointers?

How many were of the variety we just described? Lou Williams got three free throws in the 4th quarter without being touched by Adams just because he flailed. It's bad for the game. And we all agree... so... why not do something about it?

Heck, imagine you were an NBA official. And you fell for Harden's crap when you watched the film. Wouldn't you feel stupid and go out of your way the next time because you know he's done it 145 times this season? How do they keep falling for it?

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:God I hate the way Harden plays, but he is so damn good. It's the foul baiting I hate more than anything. There were a couple times the refs didn't fall for his shenanigans (and in one case he got called for the offensive foul after hooking Roberson's arm, then acting like he was the one being fouled).

But just like the rip-through move and jump-into--your defender-on-shot-fakes were in vogue at one time, the latest trick Harden has perfected is to stop on a dime upon dribbling around a screen, then jump into the trailing defender while flailing away on a 3-point shot attempt. God I hate it when that gets called as a foul. Harden isn't the only one that does this, but when a guy as gifted as he is starts resorting to this move, it REALLY bugs the hell out of me.

It's been my ranting cry of late. Harden is the "best" at it. Isaiah Thomas does it coming off screens. Lou Williams does it. Chris Paul. As noted... Rubio does it.

I guarantee it will be the NBA's next "point of emphasis"... next season. But they'll only really call guys like Tyus Jones or CJ Watson for it for a few weeks and then they'll revert to the way it is.

And I'd put money down than an NBA playoff game will be decided by an offensive player drawing contract (initiating contact) 25 - 30 feet away and then get three free throws by going into an (UN)natural shot. Meanwhile... as long as one team has momentum... it's still ok to bludgeon people going to the rim.

I like the pace-and-space game. I dig three pointers. But it's bad for NBA hoops when games are being called so soft 25 feet out. I heard Houston had 13 or 14 fouls while shooting three pointers?

How many were of the variety we just described? Lou Williams got three free throws in the 4th quarter without being touched by Adams just because he flailed. It's bad for the game. And we all agree... so... why not do something about it?

Heck, imagine you were an NBA official. And you fell for Harden's crap when you watched the film. Wouldn't you feel stupid and go out of your way the next time because you know he's done it 145 times this season? How do they keep falling for it?

Abe part of it is sometimes it's flat out a foul. Now the issue sometimes whether or not the guy should shoot FTs. These officials have a tough job. Sometimes when they make a call they are making a call based on how they are supposed to call it based on the rules etc. obviously it SEEMS like they also make various calls that are judgement calls to keep the game flowing instead of calling a foul the ball goes out of bounds and they don't call anything. Of course at times that has burned them too late in games where they can look at who it went off of but can't retroactively call a foul. Anyway sometimes ai thinknthe officials are stuck between calling it like they are supposed to based on the rules and stuff the are specifically supposed to watch for and just calling a game that makes sense. I don't want to let these guys off the hook but it's incredible athletes and some of them are smart and very clever. Chris Paul is annoying too and I hate he is because damn he is such a freaking good all around player.

monsterpile wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Q12543 wrote:God I hate the way Harden plays, but he is so damn good. It's the foul baiting I hate more than anything. There were a couple times the refs didn't fall for his shenanigans (and in one case he got called for the offensive foul after hooking Roberson's arm, then acting like he was the one being fouled).

But just like the rip-through move and jump-into--your defender-on-shot-fakes were in vogue at one time, the latest trick Harden has perfected is to stop on a dime upon dribbling around a screen, then jump into the trailing defender while flailing away on a 3-point shot attempt. God I hate it when that gets called as a foul. Harden isn't the only one that does this, but when a guy as gifted as he is starts resorting to this move, it REALLY bugs the hell out of me.

It's been my ranting cry of late. Harden is the "best" at it. Isaiah Thomas does it coming off screens. Lou Williams does it. Chris Paul. As noted... Rubio does it.

I guarantee it will be the NBA's next "point of emphasis"... next season. But they'll only really call guys like Tyus Jones or CJ Watson for it for a few weeks and then they'll revert to the way it is.

And I'd put money down than an NBA playoff game will be decided by an offensive player drawing contract (initiating contact) 25 - 30 feet away and then get three free throws by going into an (UN)natural shot. Meanwhile... as long as one team has momentum... it's still ok to bludgeon people going to the rim.

I like the pace-and-space game. I dig three pointers. But it's bad for NBA hoops when games are being called so soft 25 feet out. I heard Houston had 13 or 14 fouls while shooting three pointers?

How many were of the variety we just described? Lou Williams got three free throws in the 4th quarter without being touched by Adams just because he flailed. It's bad for the game. And we all agree... so... why not do something about it?

Heck, imagine you were an NBA official. And you fell for Harden's crap when you watched the film. Wouldn't you feel stupid and go out of your way the next time because you know he's done it 145 times this season? How do they keep falling for it?

Abe part of it is sometimes it's flat out a foul. Now the issue sometimes whether or not the guy should shoot FTs. These officials have a tough job. Sometimes when they make a call they are making a call based on how they are supposed to call it based on the rules etc. obviously it SEEMS like they also make various calls that are judgement calls to keep the game flowing instead of calling a foul the ball goes out of bounds and they don't call anything. Of course at times that has burned them too late in games where they can look at who it went off of but can't retroactively call a foul. Anyway sometimes ai thinknthe officials are stuck between calling it like they are supposed to based on the rules and stuff the are specifically supposed to watch for and just calling a game that makes sense. I don't want to let these guys off the hook but it's incredible athletes and some of them are smart and very clever. Chris Paul is annoying too and I hate he is because damn he is such a freaking good all around player.

Of course. It's a tough gig. But they watch film. A lot of it probably. They know these things.

This new gimmick is a lot like the sweep-through move that Durant/Harden/Paul used often. That was a foul, too. Fair enough. Call a foul. Do NOT reward them with 3 free throws for a touch foul initiated by the offensive player.

The NBA has arguably the most dubious history of officiating of the main sports... and with good reason. The Tim Donaghy thing actually happened, regardless of how much Stern and the NBA tried to sweep it under the proverbial rug. Part of that is that it's a really challenging.

And part of it is that the NBA exploded in popularity by catering to its stars... and in part because they are much more reactionary than proactive on issues like this.



[Note: By the way, I'm convinced Chris Paul commits 15 - 20 fouls every game. He's a wonderful player, fantastic... but the liberty he's given to mug defensively is absurd.]

Agree that the best way to handle the latest move is the same way they handled the rip-through move. Call it a non-shooting foul. I think anytime a player commits an "unnatural act" in terms of his shot motion, it needs to either be a non-shooting foul, a no-call, or an offensive foul depending how how egregious the situation is.

One thing I will say the refs have swallowed their whistle on is the post-3 attempt flop, where a player taking a contested 3 falls to the floor at the slightest bit of contact after his shot release in order to try to draw a foul. Harden pulled that move a few times too, but fortunately didn't get the call.

Q12543 wrote:Agree that the best way to handle the latest move is the same way they handled the rip-through move. Call it a non-shooting foul. I think anytime a player commits an "unnatural act" in terms of his shot motion, it needs to either be a non-shooting foul, a no-call, or an offensive foul depending how how egregious the situation is.

One thing I will say the refs have swallowed their whistle on is the post-3 attempt flop, where a player taking a contested 3 falls to the floor at the slightest bit of contact after his shot release in order to try to draw a foul. Harden pulled that move a few times too, but fortunately didn't get the call.

Redick got that call in the late game.

But, yes... it happens slightly less frequently than it used to.

I watched the last 8 minutes of the Raptors Bucks game. Both teams tried to give the game away. Giannis looked Gassed the whole time. Late Ibaka had a terrible foul on Middleton behind the 3 point line. He had a handful of jersey and fouled him on the arm also fouling out. What was he doing? Fortunately for the Raps Middleton only made 2/3 of the FTs.

monsterpile wrote:I watched the last 8 minutes of the Raptors Bucks game. Both teams tried to give the game away. Giannis looked Gassed the whole time. Late Ibaka had a terrible foul on Middleton behind the 3 point line. He had a handful of jersey and fouled him on the arm also fouling out. What was he doing? Fortunately for the Raps Middleton only made 2/3 of the FTs.

DeRozan made some big plays down the stretch. He's always my beacon of hope when it comes to Wiggins. It took DeRozan 6 or 7 seasons to really understand how to score efficiently (without a 3-point shot mind you) and become a top notch offensive weapon. It seems like Wiggins has more tools in the tool bag and should at least become a DeRozan level player.

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I watched the last 8 minutes of the Raptors Bucks game. Both teams tried to give the game away. Giannis looked Gassed the whole time. Late Ibaka had a terrible foul on Middleton behind the 3 point line. He had a handful of jersey and fouled him on the arm also fouling out. What was he doing? Fortunately for the Raps Middleton only made 2/3 of the FTs.

DeRozan made some big plays down the stretch. He's always my beacon of hope when it comes to Wiggins. It took DeRozan 6 or 7 seasons to really understand how to score efficiently (without a 3-point shot mind you) and become a top notch offensive weapon. It seems like Wiggins has more tools in the tool bag and should at least become a DeRozan level player.

I agree, Q. Wiggins has a chance to become DeRozan with a good 3-point shot, although DeRozan came into the League as a better ball-handler than Wiggins.

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I watched the last 8 minutes of the Raptors Bucks game. Both teams tried to give the game away. Giannis looked Gassed the whole time. Late Ibaka had a terrible foul on Middleton behind the 3 point line. He had a handful of jersey and fouled him on the arm also fouling out. What was he doing? Fortunately for the Raps Middleton only made 2/3 of the FTs.

DeRozan made some big plays down the stretch. He's always my beacon of hope when it comes to Wiggins. It took DeRozan 6 or 7 seasons to really understand how to score efficiently (without a 3-point shot mind you) and become a top notch offensive weapon. It seems like Wiggins has more tools in the tool bag and should at least become a DeRozan level player.

I agree, Q. Wiggins has a chance to become DeRozan with a good 3-point shot, although DeRozan came into the League as a better ball-handler than Wiggins.

And we have to wait another 3 or 4 years... :-(

60WinTim wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

monsterpile wrote:I watched the last 8 minutes of the Raptors Bucks game. Both teams tried to give the game away. Giannis looked Gassed the whole time. Late Ibaka had a terrible foul on Middleton behind the 3 point line. He had a handful of jersey and fouled him on the arm also fouling out. What was he doing? Fortunately for the Raps Middleton only made 2/3 of the FTs.

DeRozan made some big plays down the stretch. He's always my beacon of hope when it comes to Wiggins. It took DeRozan 6 or 7 seasons to really understand how to score efficiently (without a 3-point shot mind you) and become a top notch offensive weapon. It seems like Wiggins has more tools in the tool bag and should at least become a DeRozan level player.

I agree, Q. Wiggins has a chance to become DeRozan with a good 3-point shot, although DeRozan came into the League as a better ball-handler than Wiggins.

And we have to wait another 3 or 4 years... :-(

Tim if you want to be cheered up Wiggins is ahead of Derozan by at least a couple years as a scorer statistically. Heck Wiggins 3rd season is comparable to Derozon's career best season at the time in 2016 and Wiggins is a better 3 point shooter.