Minnesota Sports Forum

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:And there's a reason why Mike Tice can't get another head coaching job.

Because he was a horrible head coach?

Because he ran his players into the ground, and just for fun, wouldn't give them water. I heard a rumor one of them died because of this. But since you're so much smarter than me, I sure you would know whether or not that actually happened.

Touchy touchy! I don't think I ever claimed to be smarter than you, pointing that out would be classless.

:thumb:

I'm not a big fan of over-using shorthand, but seriously, when the subject is players getting overworked, Korey Stringer doesn't pop into your head immediately?!?!?!?

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:And there's a reason why Mike Tice can't get another head coaching job.

Because he was a horrible head coach?

Because he ran his players into the ground, and just for fun, wouldn't give them water. I heard a rumor one of them died because of this. But since you're so much smarter than me, I sure you would know whether or not that actually happened.

Touchy touchy! I don't think I ever claimed to be smarter than you, pointing that out would be classless.

:thumb:

I'm not a big fan of over-using shorthand, but seriously, when the subject is players getting overworked, Korey Stringer doesn't pop into your head immediately?!?!?!?

I was just saying Tice was a terrible coach, the details are unimportant, he just plain sucked.

Edit: And I've never before heard it claimed that Tice wouldn't allow the players water.

Edit II: If Tice wasn't allowing players water as you stated then Stringer's wife would have won her lawsuit against the Vikings. She didn't.

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:And there's a reason why Mike Tice can't get another head coaching job.

Because he was a horrible head coach?

Because he ran his players into the ground, and just for fun, wouldn't give them water. I heard a rumor one of them died because of this. But since you're so much smarter than me, I sure you would know whether or not that actually happened.

Touchy touchy! I don't think I ever claimed to be smarter than you, pointing that out would be classless.

:thumb:

I'm not a big fan of over-using shorthand, but seriously, when the subject is players getting overworked, Korey Stringer doesn't pop into your head immediately?!?!?!?

I was just saying Tice was a terrible coach, the details are unimportant, he just plain sucked.

Edit: And I've never before heard it claimed that Tice wouldn't allow the players water.

Edit II: If Tice wasn't allowing players water as you stated then Stringer's wife would have won her lawsuit against the Vikings. She didn't.

I had heard she settled. Ray Miller, Leslie Frazier, Sidney Lowe, and Todd Richards were terrible coaches. Nobody died. I would say that is an important detail.

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:And there's a reason why Mike Tice can't get another head coaching job.

Because he was a horrible head coach?

Because he ran his players into the ground, and just for fun, wouldn't give them water. I heard a rumor one of them died because of this. But since you're so much smarter than me, I sure you would know whether or not that actually happened.

Touchy touchy! I don't think I ever claimed to be smarter than you, pointing that out would be classless.

:thumb:

I'm not a big fan of over-using shorthand, but seriously, when the subject is players getting overworked, Korey Stringer doesn't pop into your head immediately?!?!?!?

I was just saying Tice was a terrible coach, the details are unimportant, he just plain sucked.

Edit: And I've never before heard it claimed that Tice wouldn't allow the players water.

Edit II: If Tice wasn't allowing players water as you stated then Stringer's wife would have won her lawsuit against the Vikings. She didn't.

Article about it...

http://www.si.com/vault/2002/07/29/327062/a-question-of-life-and-death-a-year-after-star-lineman-korey-stringer-succumbed-to-heatstroke-the-vikings-open-camp-facing-new-scrutiny-over-how-they-handled-his-on-field-collapse

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:And there's a reason why Mike Tice can't get another head coaching job.

Because he was a horrible head coach?

Because he ran his players into the ground, and just for fun, wouldn't give them water. I heard a rumor one of them died because of this. But since you're so much smarter than me, I sure you would know whether or not that actually happened.

Touchy touchy! I don't think I ever claimed to be smarter than you, pointing that out would be classless.

:thumb:

I'm not a big fan of over-using shorthand, but seriously, when the subject is players getting overworked, Korey Stringer doesn't pop into your head immediately?!?!?!?

I was just saying Tice was a terrible coach, the details are unimportant, he just plain sucked.

Edit: And I've never before heard it claimed that Tice wouldn't allow the players water.

Edit II: If Tice wasn't allowing players water as you stated then Stringer's wife would have won her lawsuit against the Vikings. She didn't.

I had heard she settled. Ray Miller, Leslie Frazier, Sidney Lowe, and Todd Richards were terrible coaches. Nobody died. I would say that is an important detail.

Correlation != Causation

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:

TheSP wrote:

JasonIsDaMan wrote:And there's a reason why Mike Tice can't get another head coaching job.

Because he was a horrible head coach?

Because he ran his players into the ground, and just for fun, wouldn't give them water. I heard a rumor one of them died because of this. But since you're so much smarter than me, I sure you would know whether or not that actually happened.

Touchy touchy! I don't think I ever claimed to be smarter than you, pointing that out would be classless.

:thumb:

I'm not a big fan of over-using shorthand, but seriously, when the subject is players getting overworked, Korey Stringer doesn't pop into your head immediately?!?!?!?

I was just saying Tice was a terrible coach, the details are unimportant, he just plain sucked.

Edit: And I've never before heard it claimed that Tice wouldn't allow the players water.

Edit II: If Tice wasn't allowing players water as you stated then Stringer's wife would have won her lawsuit against the Vikings. She didn't.

Article about it...

http://www.si.com/vault/2002/07/29/327062/a-question-of-life-and-death-a-year-after-star-lineman-korey-stringer-succumbed-to-heatstroke-the-vikings-open-camp-facing-new-scrutiny-over-how-they-handled-his-on-field-collapse

I'm not seeing where it states the result of the lawsuit.

Be that as it may: Really? So no thinks of Mike Tice when it comes to a discussion of overworking players? I guess that's just me.

And how about a shout out to Red. The guy kills one of your best players, and you promote him because he'll work cheap. Man I don't miss him.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:As of now... without knowing what's to come in FA or with rookies... I have them at about 44 wins. I'm totally aware I'm usually on the low end among prognosticators. But the team has largely the foundation already in place. It's not about a new guy or two that can create an immediate impact like Shaq, James, Garnett/Allen or even Steve Nash.

And they improved by 13 games this past season. I look to similar growth next season. Remember, the 2016 Wolves were extremely healthy.

I'm greedier than you and want and expect more sooner, Abe. Here's how I look at it: The Wolves looked very young and raw for most of the season and played like teenagers, but by the end of the season they were starting to look like NBA players. And their record supported it, as they played the last month of the season with a record of 9-8...that winning percentage projects to 43 wins over the course of the season.

This year we should see continued improvement in our 5 guys still in the first 4 years of their career, and Belly should be much more comfortable in his second year too. I also think we are an attractive destination, and should attract at least one helpful free agent. I know we have likely a top 5 pick, but I don't expect that to translate into more wins next year, but the improvement of the other six young core guys should lead to a winning percentage better than we saw at the end of this season.

Your prediction of 44 wins means we are going to win at about the identical frequency we did the last month of the season. I only see that happening if Thibs has the same injury history he had in Chicago. But I'm taking heart from the Wolfson tweet about Thibs having a new attitude about overworking his players and our young core has proven to be quite resilient under Kander, so I'm not expecting a rash of injuries. Suffice it to say, I'll be very unhappy if we only win 44 games next season.

longstrangetrip wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:As of now... without knowing what's to come in FA or with rookies... I have them at about 44 wins. I'm totally aware I'm usually on the low end among prognosticators. But the team has largely the foundation already in place. It's not about a new guy or two that can create an immediate impact like Shaq, James, Garnett/Allen or even Steve Nash.

And they improved by 13 games this past season. I look to similar growth next season. Remember, the 2016 Wolves were extremely healthy.

I'm greedier than you and want and expect more sooner, Abe. Here's how I look at it: The Wolves looked very young and raw for most of the season and played like teenagers, but by the end of the season they were starting to look like NBA players. And their record supported it, as they played the last month of the season with a record of 9-8...that winning percentage projects to 43 wins over the course of the season.

This year we should see continued improvement in our 5 guys still in the first 4 years of their career, and Belly should be much more comfortable in his second year too. I also think we are an attractive destination, and should attract at least one helpful free agent. I know we have likely a top 5 pick, but I don't expect that to translate into more wins next year, but the improvement of the other six young core guys should lead to a winning percentage better than we saw at the end of this season.

Your prediction of 44 wins means we are going to win at about the identical frequency we did the last month of the season. I only see that happening if Thibs has the same injury history he had in Chicago. But I'm taking heart from the Wolfson tweet about Thibs having a new attitude about overworking his players and our young core has proven to be quite resilient under Kander, so I'm not expecting a rash of injuries. Suffice it to say, I'll be very unhappy if we only win 44 games next season.

1. The Wolves were very healthy. (and just because guys may get injured next year, I hope Thibodeau doesn't become the scapegoat for it without cause)
2. The Thunder beat the Warriors, Thunder and Trailblazers. Great wins. They also beat the Kings twice. Pelicans. Suns. Grizzlies.
3. Everyone else could be right. I hope you are.

Don't get me wrong, it was a great end to the season for once in Minnesota and offers hope. But I'm less convinced this team as currently constructed is ready to make the leap into a battle for homecourt advantage in the playoffs. That's a HUGE step in one season if we're only using player development and a new coach. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just offering my opinion that the Wolves will be an above .500 team... just not near the elite next season.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

longstrangetrip wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:As of now... without knowing what's to come in FA or with rookies... I have them at about 44 wins. I'm totally aware I'm usually on the low end among prognosticators. But the team has largely the foundation already in place. It's not about a new guy or two that can create an immediate impact like Shaq, James, Garnett/Allen or even Steve Nash.

And they improved by 13 games this past season. I look to similar growth next season. Remember, the 2016 Wolves were extremely healthy.

I'm greedier than you and want and expect more sooner, Abe. Here's how I look at it: The Wolves looked very young and raw for most of the season and played like teenagers, but by the end of the season they were starting to look like NBA players. And their record supported it, as they played the last month of the season with a record of 9-8...that winning percentage projects to 43 wins over the course of the season.

This year we should see continued improvement in our 5 guys still in the first 4 years of their career, and Belly should be much more comfortable in his second year too. I also think we are an attractive destination, and should attract at least one helpful free agent. I know we have likely a top 5 pick, but I don't expect that to translate into more wins next year, but the improvement of the other six young core guys should lead to a winning percentage better than we saw at the end of this season.

Your prediction of 44 wins means we are going to win at about the identical frequency we did the last month of the season. I only see that happening if Thibs has the same injury history he had in Chicago. But I'm taking heart from the Wolfson tweet about Thibs having a new attitude about overworking his players and our young core has proven to be quite resilient under Kander, so I'm not expecting a rash of injuries. Suffice it to say, I'll be very unhappy if we only win 44 games next season.

1. The Wolves were very healthy. (and just because guys may get injured next year, I hope Thibodeau doesn't become the scapegoat for it without cause)
2. The Thunder beat the Warriors, Thunder and Trailblazers. Great wins. They also beat the Kings twice. Pelicans. Suns. Grizzlies.
3. Everyone else could be right. I hope you are.

Don't get me wrong, it was a great end to the season for once in Minnesota and offers hope. But I'm less convinced this team as currently constructed is ready to make the leap into a battle for homecourt advantage in the playoffs. That's a HUGE step in one season if we're only using player development and a new coach. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just offering my opinion that the Wolves will be an above .500 team... just not near the elite next season.

I think our projected win thread next October could be our most fun one yet. Here are my thoughts on your three points:

1. I agree that the young core was extremely healthy, but we lost a significant amount of time from three bigs that Sam needed in the rotation (KG, Pek and Belly)...2 of them missed over half the season. Not having these guys forced us to rely too much on Payne, Greg Smith and Rudez. I think that Thibs will have more depth and better options up front next year than Sam had this year.
1a) I'm lucky to still be able to compete nationally in two sports at my (ahem) advanced age, and I feel healthier today than I have most of my life. I attribute this to finally getting smart 5 years ago and getting more serious about stretching, yoga and pilates...wish I had found then earlier. We don't know why Arnie Kander has had so much success in his career keeping his teams healthy, but I suspect it has something to do with there practices. Maybe our new guys are just more resilient than the average NBA player, but I prefer to think that Arnie has a lot to do with it...and that his success will continue.

2. The Wolves schedule the last month of the year was varied...some bad teams, some good teams. But to me it doesn't look particularly easier or harder than an average schedule. More than half the games were on the road, and more than half of them were against playoff teams. 9-8 seems to me to be a pretty accurate reflection of the kind of team we were at the end of the year.

3. If you read the 5 by 5 article in the other thread, experts' predictions are all over the map for wins next year. Some are down in the low 40s with you, and a couple are up in the 50s...Thorpe is at 55 with me. So much depends on whether our young guys continue to develop.

I can't find a better parallel to this year's roster than the 08-09 Thunder, who won 23 games as Durant, Westbrook and Ibaka tried to learn the NBA game. The light bulb went on quickly the next year though, and they increased their win total to 50. That's the best blueprint I can find for the Wolves.

I've been watching and reading from afar, but I thought I should add my 2c.

I'm on board with Cam here. Even the detractors of this move would seem to agree that, at the very least, he will make us a better team for a few years. Worst case scenario is that his style grates on the players too much and we end up losing Lavine and or Wiggins (as the two names thrown around as potential players that would become disheartened by Thibs' style). And that would be a material dent in out ultimate championship aspirations. But I don't believe we saw any significant players leave Chicago due to his style. Yes, they got drained by it in the end - but they were better for it while he was there and ultimately didn't leave. Alternatively, in OKC - they broke up their core anyway to avoid the luxury tax, and now after having not gotten over the hump - there is some talk that they will lose their key piece to Free Agency anyway. So there is no guarantee either way. An alternative coach may be softer on the players and not piss them off... but it may lead to an underperforming W/L record and the environment gets stale anyway.

I think the key attributes that Thibs brings are relatively reliable (not guaranteed, but relatively reliable) in that he'll make the team better while he's here. I think the key detractions of Thibs take a fair bit of subjective judgement and extrapolation to see them play out. So that's where I sit. I for one, Welcome our new Thibs overlord.

Also, I think his approach may be absolutely perfect for Wiggins. Remember when he came into the league and the expectation was that he would be a great defender and an all-round player, but would need to develop his offensive game for a few years... I think all those tools for elite defender and all-round player are still there and Thibs may be a perfect catalyst to bring them out.

Go Wolves!