Whose The New Whipping Boy? (Wolves vs. Griz)

[Coolbreeze44]

To be honest, I would trade both of them and REALLY build this thing around Ant and Jaden.

This 100%!

Thanks SP

[mjs34]

Unless KAT comes back and he and Rudy really click, Rudy has to go. He isn't a DPOY guy any more (if ever), and he has no offensive skill set. If KAT comes back healthy, he is a must until we find a way to replace his offense. I don't see this team making the play-in partly due to a difficult remaining schedule and partly due to an imbalanced team that is going to allow opponents to load up on Ant.

If we can get one first round pick and an expiring, I am good trading Rudy. We can fix the past, but hopefully TC is man enough to own his mistake and move on. Trading for Conley doesn't necessarily mean that isn't going to happen.

[Jester1534]

It appears the new whipping boy has been uncovered. Look, Rudy is a good player, but clearly not worth the haul we gave up to get him. The question is now what do they do? First of all, hope he meshes with KAT and we go on a run. That would solve a lot of problems obviously. But if that doesn't happen, one of the two can't come back next year. And to save face it would probably have to be KAT that goes. If we could get enough draft picks to replenish the cabinet, it would be like trading KAT for Gobert. Not ideal, but not as bad as the deal looks today.

I agree with you up to the point where you conclude that KAT would probably have to be the guy traded. You're right if TC prioritizes saving face. I'm hoping TC is bigger than that. No doubt KAT would bring back more/less protected future picks than Rudy. But if you believe in Ant and McDaniels as I do, then the quantity of picks is less important that the quality of the players we get in return. The Gobert deal was a gross overpay and Rudy's value has probably fallen a bit more as his weaknesses have been further exposed playing in a system that wasn't meticulously designed for him. His age may also be starting to catch up with. So we'd still get a decent return for him.

If the KAT/Rudy combo doesn't mesh down the stretch a lot better than it did earlier in the season, the decision on whether to trade Rudy or KAT should turn on which deal would put this team in the best position to win a championship in the next 3-4 years so we don't end up in a situation where Edwards wants to leave and tries to force his way out. I'm fine trading either one, but the decision has to be based on the likely impact of the deal on winning in the short to mid term in my view. KAT can be a great #1A or #2 with Edwards. I still think a huge key for this team will be McDaniels' continued development. He hasn't taken the leap I was hoping for, but as I've written before, we need to be patient with young players and realize that they don't all develop at the same pace.

Not to harsh you lip but I've seen this statement a lot and have no idea what it means. What do you mean the Jazz meticulously had system in place for him. All I ever heard was how bad the Jazz wings were at defending and Gobert covered a lot of there weaknesses. Why can't we run this scheme? Is this a Finch problem for not putting our players in the best position to succeed?

[FNG]

I don't think anyone feels good about last night's loss, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. Memphis has the best home record in basketball...23-5. And we're missing our most efficient volume scorer...not to mention a very good rebounder. I think any talk of moving KAT or Rudy is premature...we only had about 20 games to see how they jive, and I don't think KAT's 30% shooting (on looks he normally is 40%) is an accurate assessment of how they are going to play together. Plus we have added a PG with a history (and even a recent history...hello Lauri) of making players better. I'm quite optimistic about how this team will gel after KAT is truly ready to play. Let's give this one a little more time...

FNG - I have to admire your spirited optimism in the face of the Wolves' bleak reality. :) As for rebounding, one of my take-aways from the 20+ games KAT and Rudy played together was that their rebounding isn't additive. As I expected, the vast majority of rebounds Rudy gets are the ones KAT would get. Vando's rebounds were the loose balls and long caroms. Those rebounds were additive to KAT's. That's why we weren't rebounding any better this season with KAT and Gobert together than we were last season. I expect the same when KAT returns. Hopefully, this time the offense will be better and the defense will be stronger. I'm hoping those guys gel and that we can salvage the season over the next 23 games. But then there's that damn schedule.

Fair point, Lip, about the incremental rebounds. I still think our rebounding will improve though with KAT in for SloMo. But yeah, it's a little lonely over here on Optimist Island with all you doom and gloom guys blowing up the team before we even get a chance to see if a pass-first PG who also defends might be just what this team needs! Tim stops by to visit sometimes, but mostly it's just me and my dog here.

I may join you guys if we don't play better than we did last night, and I'll definitely join you if we get healthy and don't make the playoffs. But meanwhile I'm quite excited about what this team can do now that we have two PGs (plus SloMo) that we can rely on to move the ball and not turn it over...it's what I have been asking for for a long time.

I'm not going to jump to any conclusions until I've seen how a healthy roster performs. We've made 53.5% and 40.5% of our 3-point shots since DLo left, but I'm not going to conclude we are a better 3-point shooting team without him (although I do think that ball movement creates open looks, and we've had better ball movement the last two games). But similarly I'm not going to conclude the synergy Gobert and Conley had last year is gone just because I didn't see it last night. I'm going to give this a few games...

[FNG]

Unless KAT comes back and he and Rudy really click, Rudy has to go. He isn't a DPOY guy any more (if ever), and he has no offensive skill set. If KAT comes back healthy, he is a must until we find a way to replace his offense. I don't see this team making the play-in partly due to a difficult remaining schedule and partly due to an imbalanced team that is going to allow opponents to load up on Ant.

If we can get one first round pick and an expiring, I am good trading Rudy. We can fix the past, but hopefully TC is man enough to own his mistake and move on. Trading for Conley doesn't necessarily mean that isn't going to happen.

I don't disagree that Rudy's defense has declined a little this year (although kekgeek is quite persuasive with stats that show how much we need Rudy on defense) but I take issue with saying he has no offensive skill set. If by that you mean he is clumsy and doesn't play basketball like a skilled wing, I agree with you. But I don't expect our centers to play like Ant, I just want them to be effective...and Rudy not only is known as one of the best screeners in the game (which is undeniably a very important skill set), he is also an extraordinarily efficient scorer. Last season (when he was lucky to be paired with Conley much of the time), he averaged 15.6 PPG on an absurdly efficient 73.2 true shooting percentage, and he added 3.7 offensive rebounds per game. He hasn't had the benefit of playing with a facilitator like Conley this season, but his offensive numbers are still quite good...13.1 and 3.1 offensive rebounds with a still very efficient 67.4 TS% Elite screener, productive offensive rebounder, and 15.6 PPG with a 73.2 TS% (playing with Conley)...if that's no offensive skill set, I'll take 10 of them please!

[60WinTim]

Getting back to the game...

I was surprised SloMo only played 17 minutes considering how important he is on both ends of the court. And Finch used a 10-man rotation, when I think he prefers 9.

This was one of the toughest games left on our schedule. So our new look team got a "scrimmage" against some of the toughest competition they will see. Now they get a couple of practice days and apply that against what should be another tough game at the Mavs (I assume Luka will be back).

[FNG]

Getting back to the game...

I was surprised SloMo only played 17 minutes considering how important he is on both ends of the court. And Finch used a 10-man rotation, when I think he prefers 9.

This was one of the toughest games left on our schedule. So our new look team got a "scrimmage" against some of the toughest competition they will see. Now they get a couple of practice days and apply that against what should be another tough game at the Mavs (I assume Luka will be back).

Back spasms are a tricky thing, Tim, so I think Finchie will be very careful with SloMo until after the break. I think Dallas will be heavily favored against us if Luka plays, but I like our chances in the next two games against Washington and Charlotte. And then we're going to need a healthy effective KAT on the brutal west coast road trip to stay in contention. Or maybe some 2021-22 injury good fortune.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Rudy Gobert, offensive dynamo. You heard it here first.

[Lipoli390]

Rudy Gobert, offensive dynamo. You heard it here first.

Lol. You've out-scooped Doogie on this, Cam. :)

[Lipoli390]

It appears the new whipping boy has been uncovered. Look, Rudy is a good player, but clearly not worth the haul we gave up to get him. The question is now what do they do? First of all, hope he meshes with KAT and we go on a run. That would solve a lot of problems obviously. But if that doesn't happen, one of the two can't come back next year. And to save face it would probably have to be KAT that goes. If we could get enough draft picks to replenish the cabinet, it would be like trading KAT for Gobert. Not ideal, but not as bad as the deal looks today.

I agree with you up to the point where you conclude that KAT would probably have to be the guy traded. You're right if TC prioritizes saving face. I'm hoping TC is bigger than that. No doubt KAT would bring back more/less protected future picks than Rudy. But if you believe in Ant and McDaniels as I do, then the quantity of picks is less important that the quality of the players we get in return. The Gobert deal was a gross overpay and Rudy's value has probably fallen a bit more as his weaknesses have been further exposed playing in a system that wasn't meticulously designed for him. His age may also be starting to catch up with. So we'd still get a decent return for him.

If the KAT/Rudy combo doesn't mesh down the stretch a lot better than it did earlier in the season, the decision on whether to trade Rudy or KAT should turn on which deal would put this team in the best position to win a championship in the next 3-4 years so we don't end up in a situation where Edwards wants to leave and tries to force his way out. I'm fine trading either one, but the decision has to be based on the likely impact of the deal on winning in the short to mid term in my view. KAT can be a great #1A or #2 with Edwards. I still think a huge key for this team will be McDaniels' continued development. He hasn't taken the leap I was hoping for, but as I've written before, we need to be patient with young players and realize that they don't all develop at the same pace.

You're right we SHOULD make the best deal for the overall health of the organization. I'm just saying I don't think TC is going to cut his own throat by turning around and trading Rudy for half the assets he sent out. You are probably the biggest KAT supporter on the forum. You continue to believe in things we have never seen to date, such as KAT being the catalyst to a top ten team. To be honest, I would trade both of them and REALLY build this thing around Ant and Jaden. And in regards to Jaden, he hasn't improved as you would have hoped? What were you expecting this year, for him to become Ray Allen? Almost all of his stats are up and he should be all NBA defense this year. His handle is worlds better. He guards the top players in the world every night. What did you expect?

I've acknowledged Jaden's improvement a number of times in various posts. But he hasn't taken the leap we've seen from Ant. I expected a more developed offensive game from Jaden. I also expected better rebounding, an area where he really comes up short considering his physical tools and the position he plays. His defensive rating is 115.0. My eye test tells me he's doing a terrific job defensively, but that metric is a bit underwhelming even when factoring in the fact that he defends the opponents' best players most games. I'm one of Jaden's biggest boosters on this board, but I'm trying to be objective in assessing his game and development. He's definitely improved, but I expected a bigger leap this season than the one we've seen to date. And he absolutely has to improve his rebounding if he's going to be our starting SF on a championship contending team.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say I continue to believe in things we've never seen before with KAT. I've seen a perennial all-star - a great, highly efficient and amazingly versatile scorer as well as a terrific rebounder. He's also incredible consistent game to game. He was the #2 guy next to Butler on a team that made the playoffs. Last season, he was the #1 player on a team that finished 10 games over .500 and nearly knocked off the second seed in the playoffs without another all-star caliber player on the team. If DLO had played remotely well, the Wolves would have advanced to the second round. I"m not sure what you mean by "KAT being a catalyst to a top ten team." I've never referred to him in those terms. To the contrary, I've consistently said he's not a #1 guy on a title contender; instead his a 1A or more likely a #2. If being a #2 on a contender is being a catalyst, then I'm fine with your characterization and I"m probably in good company with a lot of people on this board. KAT hasn't had much talent around him in all the years here because of gross front office incompetence. The two times he's had one other really good player, this team has made the playoffs. The first time was with Butler. Note that KAT was only 22 years old back then and didn't have a lot of other talent on the team with him other than Buttler. The second time was last season with Edwards, but Ant wasn't even playing at an all-star level last season.

I don't consider myself a KAT supporter. He frustrates the heck out of me with his whining and weird comments. I simply recognize his tremendous and consistent production.