Minnesota Sports Forum

D-Loser wrote:I agree with you both here. I'd be good with dlo coming back for something like 4/70, but honestly he's just not as important as the other 4. How much do we really lose right now when Nowell has to cover his minutes? I'd argue very little. Don't get me wrong, he's having a good year and we would miss his play making a bit, but he's the easiest to replace, especially at his expected cost.

Alright, I'll bite. What makes you think the bolded text is anywhere close to being true? I'm willing to hear the argument if you'll provide it. Respectfully.

I just don't understand how we're this far into the season and still have fans undervaluing the impact D-Lo has as a scorer, facilitator, and defender (yes) in Minnesota's backcourt. The team is vastly different with and without him.

Camden wrote:

D-Loser wrote:I agree with you both here. I'd be good with dlo coming back for something like 4/70, but honestly he's just not as important as the other 4. How much do we really lose right now when Nowell has to cover his minutes? I'd argue very little. Don't get me wrong, he's having a good year and we would miss his play making a bit, but he's the easiest to replace, especially at his expected cost.

Alright, I'll bite. What makes you think the bolded text is anywhere close to being true? I'm willing to hear the argument if you'll provide it. Respectfully.

I just don't understand how we're this far into the season and still have fans undervaluing the impact D-Lo has as a scorer, facilitator, and defender (yes) in Minnesota's backcourt. The team is vastly different with and without him.

I don't understand your issue with my statement. He's a solid starter on a decent team. That's what a solid starter on a decent team makes. The future of this team is kat and ant. We have to spend wisely after those two max guys. Again, he's had a good year, but he's not a star, like you seem to believe. Two things... often times when he's out I find myself thinking I'd be good if he just didn't come back... also, I always laugh when the announcers say he's such a clutch player... maybe if he was a little better regular player he wouldn't have to be so clutch. Yep, I think he's a replacement level starter... aka a league average starter. He's going to delusionally ask for 30M/year. let's see if we're dumb enough to give it to him

D-Mac wrote:

Camden wrote:

D-Loser wrote:I agree with you both here. I'd be good with dlo coming back for something like 4/70, but honestly he's just not as important as the other 4. How much do we really lose right now when Nowell has to cover his minutes? I'd argue very little. Don't get me wrong, he's having a good year and we would miss his play making a bit, but he's the easiest to replace, especially at his expected cost.

Alright, I'll bite. What makes you think the bolded text is anywhere close to being true? I'm willing to hear the argument if you'll provide it. Respectfully.

I just don't understand how we're this far into the season and still have fans undervaluing the impact D-Lo has as a scorer, facilitator, and defender (yes) in Minnesota's backcourt. The team is vastly different with and without him.

I don't understand your issue with my statement. He's a solid starter on a decent team. That's what a solid starter on a decent team makes. The future of this team is kat and ant. We have to spend wisely after those two max guys. Again, he's had a good year, but he's not a star, like you seem to believe. Two things... often times when he's out I find myself thinking I'd be good if he just didn't come back... also, I always laugh when the announcers say he's such a clutch player... maybe if he was a little better regular player he wouldn't have to be so clutch. Yep, I think he's a replacement level starter... aka a league average starter. Yep, I think he's a replacement level starter... aka a league average starter. He's going to delusionally ask for 30M/year. let's see if we're dumb enough to give it to him

You offer no data here to back up your claims. What is your evidence of him being a replacement level starter? How does the team actually do when he is not in the lineup versus how you think and feel like? These are things you can go lookup hard data on.

I gotta give you credit. You are right on brand here!

Q-was-here wrote:

D-Mac wrote:

Camden wrote:

D-Loser wrote:I agree with you both here. I'd be good with dlo coming back for something like 4/70, but honestly he's just not as important as the other 4. How much do we really lose right now when Nowell has to cover his minutes? I'd argue very little. Don't get me wrong, he's having a good year and we would miss his play making a bit, but he's the easiest to replace, especially at his expected cost.

Alright, I'll bite. What makes you think the bolded text is anywhere close to being true? I'm willing to hear the argument if you'll provide it. Respectfully.

I just don't understand how we're this far into the season and still have fans undervaluing the impact D-Lo has as a scorer, facilitator, and defender (yes) in Minnesota's backcourt. The team is vastly different with and without him.

I don't understand your issue with my statement. He's a solid starter on a decent team. That's what a solid starter on a decent team makes. The future of this team is kat and ant. We have to spend wisely after those two max guys. Again, he's had a good year, but he's not a star, like you seem to believe. Two things... often times when he's out I find myself thinking I'd be good if he just didn't come back... also, I always laugh when the announcers say he's such a clutch player... maybe if he was a little better regular player he wouldn't have to be so clutch. Yep, I think he's a replacement level starter... aka a league average starter. Yep, I think he's a replacement level starter... aka a league average starter. He's going to delusionally ask for 30M/year. let's see if we're dumb enough to give it to him

You offer no data here to back up your claims. What is your evidence of him being a replacement level starter? How does the team actually do when he is not in the lineup versus how you think and feel like? These are things you can go lookup hard data on.

I gotta give you credit. You are right on brand here!

I'll double down on this with Q. Where's your Data at? I been on the trading Naz train but I have no data to back it up. It's all eye test for me because I don't really understand the stats and I'm trying to learn more about them. But if someone on here gave me a bunch of data on why Naz is good fit for this team I would probably change my mind.

Countless times people have given stats on how DLO is a new player and is playing to his potential now. The team is in its best position in 15-20 years.

Also it's Pretty hard to take you seriously when you appeared out of nowhere and you made your ID on here D-Loser.

Let's do a little objective analysis on DLO by listing his pros and cons. Please agree/disagree, add, subtract:

Pros:
- Good scorer. More of a scorer than a shooter
- Excellent crafty passer
- Decent leader with a cool head
- Excellent teammate
- Capable of making big, timely plays
- Rebounds his position well
- Has the right kind of ego, very confident but not over the top

Cons:
- Streaky shooter, lacks consistency
- Misses too many games. I'm sorry but you can't sit out with a shin bruise for 6 games while chasing a playoff spot
- Not a great athlete. Gets by on guile and smarts.
- Poor one on one defender. Some of you listen to Jim Pete too much. Will get exposed during a playoff series
- Can at times be a ball stopper
- Needs to have his minutes managed

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Let's do a little objective analysis on DLO by listing his pros and cons. Please agree/disagree, add, subtract:

Pros:
- Good scorer. More of a scorer than a shooter
- Excellent crafty passer
- Decent leader with a cool head
- Excellent teammate
- Capable of making big, timely plays
- Rebounds his position well
- Has the right kind of ego, very confident but not over the top

Cons:
- Streaky shooter, lacks consistency
- Misses too many games. I'm sorry but you can't sit out with a shin bruise for 6 games while chasing a playoff spot
- Not a great athlete. Gets by on guile and smarts.
- Poor one on one defender. Some of you listen to Jim Pete too much. Will get exposed during a playoff series
- Can at times be a ball stopper
- Needs to have his minutes managed

This is a very well-thought out and balanced analysis from someone who has been a DLo detractor on the past...as frankly I have. I don't disagree much with what Cool says here (we seldom talk about rebounding with DLo, but a career 3.6 per game for a PG is good), and would only offer a few additions on both sides.

Pros: -improving and disruptive defender off the ball, but only when paired with a very good on-ball defending guard.
-improving shot selection...fewer instances of "hero ball" and forced shots than we have seen in the past

Cons: -a below average scorer in terms of efficiency. While his 54 TS % this year is better than his career average, it is still below the average for NBA guards this season
-unattractive contract: there is general consensus here that DLo uses up too much of our cap space with his max contract.

While some here show disdain for on/off and +/- measures, there is no question that DLo has measured poorly most of his career but is terrific this year- he continues to lead the team in on/off per cleaning the glass, a remarkable turnaround for a guy who has been a net negative in this stat for his career.

Good analysis, Cool.

FNG wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Let's do a little objective analysis on DLO by listing his pros and cons. Please agree/disagree, add, subtract:

Pros:
- Good scorer. More of a scorer than a shooter
- Excellent crafty passer
- Decent leader with a cool head
- Excellent teammate
- Capable of making big, timely plays
- Rebounds his position well
- Has the right kind of ego, very confident but not over the top

Cons:
- Streaky shooter, lacks consistency
- Misses too many games. I'm sorry but you can't sit out with a shin bruise for 6 games while chasing a playoff spot
- Not a great athlete. Gets by on guile and smarts.
- Poor one on one defender. Some of you listen to Jim Pete too much. Will get exposed during a playoff series
- Can at times be a ball stopper
- Needs to have his minutes managed

This is a very well-thought out and balanced analysis from someone who has been a DLo detractor on the past...as frankly I have. I don't disagree much with what Cool says here (we seldom talk about rebounding with DLo, but a career 3.6 per game for a PG is good), and would only offer a few additions on both sides.

Pros: -improving and disruptive defender off the ball, but only when paired with a very good on-ball defending guard.
-improving shot selection...fewer instances of "hero ball" and forced shots than we have seen in the past

Cons: -a below average scorer in terms of efficiency. While his 54 TS % this year is better than his career average, it is still below the average for NBA guards this season
-unattractive contract: there is general consensus here that DLo uses up too much of our cap space with his max contract.

While some here show disdain for on/off and +/- measures, there is no question that DLo has measured poorly most of his career but is terrific this year- he continues to lead the team in on/off per cleaning the glass, a remarkable turnaround for a guy who has been a net negative in this stat for his career.

Good analysis, Cool.

There's also a decent chance that Russell's positive +/- impact shows the limitations/goofiness of the statistic.

For example, another historically lousy +/- guy in Chicago is seeing an unprecedented turnaround.

Turns out, that both guys are in newer situations (DeRozan with better teammates, role and team) and Russell (close to healthy team, more games with Towns).

While it can be argued that both guys are playing better than normal this season... are they really playing THAT much better than in the past to show THAT much of a +/- difference? Are they both going from players that were negative influencers on their respective teams to arguably the biggest positive differentiators?

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

FNG wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:Let's do a little objective analysis on DLO by listing his pros and cons. Please agree/disagree, add, subtract:

Pros:
- Good scorer. More of a scorer than a shooter
- Excellent crafty passer
- Decent leader with a cool head
- Excellent teammate
- Capable of making big, timely plays
- Rebounds his position well
- Has the right kind of ego, very confident but not over the top

Cons:
- Streaky shooter, lacks consistency
- Misses too many games. I'm sorry but you can't sit out with a shin bruise for 6 games while chasing a playoff spot
- Not a great athlete. Gets by on guile and smarts.
- Poor one on one defender. Some of you listen to Jim Pete too much. Will get exposed during a playoff series
- Can at times be a ball stopper
- Needs to have his minutes managed

This is a very well-thought out and balanced analysis from someone who has been a DLo detractor on the past...as frankly I have. I don't disagree much with what Cool says here (we seldom talk about rebounding with DLo, but a career 3.6 per game for a PG is good), and would only offer a few additions on both sides.

Pros: -improving and disruptive defender off the ball, but only when paired with a very good on-ball defending guard.
-improving shot selection...fewer instances of "hero ball" and forced shots than we have seen in the past

Cons: -a below average scorer in terms of efficiency. While his 54 TS % this year is better than his career average, it is still below the average for NBA guards this season
-unattractive contract: there is general consensus here that DLo uses up too much of our cap space with his max contract.

While some here show disdain for on/off and +/- measures, there is no question that DLo has measured poorly most of his career but is terrific this year- he continues to lead the team in on/off per cleaning the glass, a remarkable turnaround for a guy who has been a net negative in this stat for his career.

Good analysis, Cool.

There's also a decent chance that Russell's positive +/- impact shows the limitations/goofiness of the statistic.

For example, another historically lousy +/- guy in Chicago is seeing an unprecedented turnaround.

Turns out, that both guys are in newer situations (DeRozan with better teammates, role and team) and Russell (close to healthy team, more games with Towns).

While it can be argued that both guys are playing better than normal this season... are they really playing THAT much better than in the past to show THAT much of a +/- difference? Are they both going from players that were negative influencers on their respective teams to arguably the biggest positive differentiators?

Maybe, Abe. The eye test is imprecise, but my eye test also tells me DLo is a totally different player than the guy I watched in college and the first years of his career. Adding PatBev has certainly helped on the defensive end, but it's not all him because I actually started to see the turnaround in his game and his leadership when I went to several games late last season...I wrote about it in some game reports. Whatever it is, I'm happy to see it and hope he can keep it up. I'm not at all surprised to see his excellent on/off stats this season.

Yeah, DeRozen is a great example of a guy who has performed poorly in on/off throughout his career, and is leading his team this year in on/off. His situation is different than DLo's though, because while DLo measures dramatically better in almost any stat you choose this season, I would argue that DeRozen actually became a different player three seasons ago, as this is the third consecutive year that his stats have been nothing short of spectacular. I always criticized DeMar as a horribly inefficient scorer, but he completely changed his game with the 2019-20 season. How can you explain a guy with a TS% in the low 50s for his first ten seasons suddenly averaging close to 60% the past three seasons? Go DeMar!!!

I'm a huge fan of on/off, because when a guy consistently measures well or poorly under that measure, I almost always see that particular player as a "very good" or "not so good" player. There are always exceptions that prove the rule, and DeRozen has been that guy for me the past two seasons. This season his superb stats are finally showing up in the on/off stats, like they generally do with very good players. I just randomly reviewed the career on/off stats of 22 players I consider proven stars, and the only one who didn't measure consistently well in on/off is Luka Doncik...another exception that proves the rule. I don't have time to randomly check 22 players I don't like, but I would bet they would almost all fare poorly in this measure. I get why some put no stock in on/off, but when a statistic almost always matches my eye test, that is my definition of a valuable stat.

There's such a huge difference between "no stock"... "too much stock" and a reasonable amount of stock along with a bunch of other factors... when discussing players and impact.

I'll add to the dicussion (Cool had a very good breakdown of Russell) that good/average starters often do not come cheap. Is Russell worth 30 million a year? MAYBE if this year's version (IF all the advances stats are actually real which should ne looked at with some level of skepticism but also not dismissed). Still he misses games and that hurts his actual overall value. As I mentioned numerous times before the season started what if Russell was worth 20-25 million this season? That's a good player and will help the team win games etc. The market often gets guys that are good starters solid contracts. One of the reasons why Harrison Barnes is valued as highly as he is is he is as good or possibly better than say Tobias Harris but makes a ton less money. Barnes isn't cheap either. Cam mentioned I think it was 4 years 84 million. I would be pretty happy with that and some suggested an even lower contract. That's probably fair if Russell is more of Atlanta Jeff Teague impact player than someone that might be a little better player than that. Still contracts are likely to go up and the 17 million a guy got even a couple years ago by the time it's time to pay Russell that will be more like 20 million. Honestly I would probably even be happy if we brought back Russell for 4 years 100 million (sounds like a big number) especially if we could front load some of the contract before having to pay Edwards and anyone else that may emerge and need to get paid.

I also think I'm terms of the team Russell might be a really good fit to the Towns Edwards combo. Russell seems like a pretty smart dude that also seems willing to say something but also isn't a guy out to just ruffle feathers. Towns take things too serious Edwards has some fun and Russell seems like a nice middle ground. I also think Russell still has upside and from what people are reporting he is taking the steps I was hoping to see as a much more balanced offensive player. If he can find that balance between playmaking and scoring etc it's gonna make him a really good player and if it's for real it's also possible that it will eventually improve his efficiency as well. Russell isn't a finished product. It will be great to see how this season plays out including the playoffs. It would be good to see what he does at this point in his career on both sides of the ball in that sphere.