Wolves fire rosas!!!

[FNG]

Does anyone else find it odd that the Wolves have a propensity to hire POBO's who have never played basketball at a high level or maybe not at all? If you look at the front offices of most NBA franchises, perhaps not all, but certainly most, POBO's have some on-court experience...at least in college if not the NBA. The Wolves on the other hand have a history of hiring guys who might be described as "the smartest guy in the room", but never played the game. David Kahn, Gersson Rosas, and now Sachin Gupta...have any of them ever actually played a game of basketball, even at the YMCA?

Driving back from the north shore yesterday and processing the Rosas news, my honey asked me what characteristics were important in a POBO. I listed the various generic management skills, but also said evaluating talent and fit had to be at the top of the list. How else are you going to make good draft and trade decisions? Maybe having some actual playing time at a high level has nothing to do with the ability to evaluate talent, but other franchises seem to think it does. Why do we prefer 5'9" sports management college grads over guys who actually know what it takes to win in the NBA?

So now we go forward with Sachin Gupta, a guy who probably has much more experience playing cricket than basketball, and once again we are an outlier. Maybe Gupta is just a placeholder until we find a true, experienced POBO. But looking at recent history, I suspect not.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Thibs was a nightmare who had to go and by that I mean he was a terrible GM who traded away a future all-star Zach Lavine just to rent Jimmy for one season to inflate his wins, drafted Dunn, Okogie and some washed center ahead of Jarrett Allen and John Collins. That playoff season not only cost the Wolves Lavine but the opportunity to draft Michael Porter. Thibs as a coach is certainly far better than Thibs as a GM, but he still was a poor fit here. He was touted as a defensive savant yet had very little impact on that end. Thibs also rewarded the young trio of KAT, Lavine and Wiggs with virtually unlimited playing time even when they coasted on defense. Those are not the habits I want installed on three young athletic talented youngsters. So I was glad to see the Thibs era come to a close even if he has had some success as a coach elsewhere and renting Jimmy to make the playoffs here is not all that impressive.

KG, thank you for providing some much needed reality about Tom Thibodeau. I've only been around these parts for a year, but there seems to be a narrative on this board that Thibs won here. He didn't, and to say otherwise is revisionist history. Jimmy Butler won here just as he has won every season of his career...he has never been part of a losing team. But Thibs did not. Yes, the Wolves had a 47-35 record in the one full season Butler played here, but without Butler Thibs coached the Wolves to a pathetic 50-72 record...that's not winning, boys. He took over what he called "the best young roster in the league" and coached them to a sterling 31-51 record...a whopping 2 more wins than Sam Mitchell the previous year despite the improvement we always expect young players to make. Then after Butler led us to our one winning record, Thibs was on his way to another losing season when Glen realized he wasn't going to win here and that the fans were demanding a change. Let's not forget how unpleasant it was to be at Target Center when Thibs was coaching sans Butler. Frankly it was much more fun watching the Wolves lose with Sam Mitchell and Ryan Saunders than it was watching them lose with Thibs...and any season ticket holder here will say the same thing.

Give Thibs credit for turning the Knicks around...he deserves a lot of credit for what he has accomplished there. But please stop saying that Thibs "won" here, because without Butler, he was a disaster, and I don't remember many unhappy people at Target Center after Glen sent him packing.

To be fair... if Thibs won and had guys playing defense with mediocre talent in Chicago... and he won and had guys playing defense with mediocre talent in NY... but in-between he lost in Minnnesota with a team that was horrendous on defense (a team that was also horrendous on defense both pre- and post-Thibs)...

Maybe Thibs shouldn't get ALL the blame?

[AbeVigodaLive]

In other news... I feel compelled to call FNG Honey Nut Cheerios for some reason.

[FNG]

Thibs was a nightmare who had to go and by that I mean he was a terrible GM who traded away a future all-star Zach Lavine just to rent Jimmy for one season to inflate his wins, drafted Dunn, Okogie and some washed center ahead of Jarrett Allen and John Collins. That playoff season not only cost the Wolves Lavine but the opportunity to draft Michael Porter. Thibs as a coach is certainly far better than Thibs as a GM, but he still was a poor fit here. He was touted as a defensive savant yet had very little impact on that end. Thibs also rewarded the young trio of KAT, Lavine and Wiggs with virtually unlimited playing time even when they coasted on defense. Those are not the habits I want installed on three young athletic talented youngsters. So I was glad to see the Thibs era come to a close even if he has had some success as a coach elsewhere and renting Jimmy to make the playoffs here is not all that impressive.

KG, thank you for providing some much needed reality about Tom Thibodeau. I've only been around these parts for a year, but there seems to be a narrative on this board that Thibs won here. He didn't, and to say otherwise is revisionist history. Jimmy Butler won here just as he has won every season of his career...he has never been part of a losing team. But Thibs did not. Yes, the Wolves had a 47-35 record in the one full season Butler played here, but without Butler Thibs coached the Wolves to a pathetic 50-72 record...that's not winning, boys. He took over what he called "the best young roster in the league" and coached them to a sterling 31-51 record...a whopping 2 more wins than Sam Mitchell the previous year despite the improvement we always expect young players to make. Then after Butler led us to our one winning record, Thibs was on his way to another losing season when Glen realized he wasn't going to win here and that the fans were demanding a change. Let's not forget how unpleasant it was to be at Target Center when Thibs was coaching sans Butler. Frankly it was much more fun watching the Wolves lose with Sam Mitchell and Ryan Saunders than it was watching them lose with Thibs...and any season ticket holder here will say the same thing.

Give Thibs credit for turning the Knicks around...he deserves a lot of credit for what he has accomplished there. But please stop saying that Thibs "won" here, because without Butler, he was a disaster, and I don't remember many unhappy people at Target Center after Glen sent him packing.

To be fair... if Thibs won and had guys playing defense with mediocre talent in Chicago... and he won and had guys playing defense with mediocre talent in NY... but in-between he lost in Minnnesota with a team that was horrendous on defense (a team that was also horrendous on defense both pre- and post-Thibs)...

Maybe Thibs shouldn't get ALL the blame?

Agree, I would never give Thibs all the blame for his non-Butler seasons...that's mostly on the players. But I also won't give him all the credit for our one outlier playoff season, because that's mostly about Butler. All I wanted to do was correct the prevailing narrative here that Thibs "won" in Minnesota, because he clearly did not. We can say he lost less frequently than Ryan Saunders and Kurt Rambis, but let's also acknowledge that's a pretty low bar.

[FNG]

In other news... I feel compelled to call FNG Honey Nut Cheerios for some reason.

Well, one out of three of the initials ain't bad.

Power of suggestion...I'm gonna pour myself a bowl of HNC right now.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I don't think an executive has to have playing history to be successful in that role. There have been plenty of former players or coaches that have tried and failed in front office roles. I can also point to a number of executives who never played basketball at a high level and have been successful. There is no singular blueprint. The skills and traits required to be productive in that position are not basketball-related, though I'll add that any kind of background in basketball is a plus.

[Monster]

Does anyone else find it odd that the Wolves have a propensity to hire POBO's who have never played basketball at a high level or maybe not at all? If you look at the front offices of most NBA franchises, perhaps not all, but certainly most, POBO's have some on-court experience...at least in college if not the NBA. The Wolves on the other hand have a history of hiring guys who might be described as "the smartest guy in the room", but never played the game. David Kahn, Gersson Rosas, and now Sachin Gupta...have any of them ever actually played a game of basketball, even at the YMCA?

Driving back from the north shore yesterday and processing the Rosas news, my honey asked me what characteristics were important in a POBO. I listed the various generic management skills, but also said evaluating talent and fit had to be at the top of the list. How else are you going to make good draft and trade decisions? Maybe having some actual playing time at a high level has nothing to do with the ability to evaluate talent, but other franchises seem to think it does. Why do we prefer 5'9" sports management college grads over guys who actually know what it takes to win in the NBA?

So now we go forward with Sachin Gupta, a guy who probably has much more experience playing cricket than basketball, and once again we are an outlier. Maybe Gupta is just a placeholder until we find a true, experienced POBO. But looking at recent history, I suspect not.

So right now the ledger for guys that didn't play the game at a high level has David Kahn and Rosas and Gupta as an interim.

What about other guys?

McHale HOF player

Flip Saunders played high level college basketball and was a long time head coach.

Thibs played college basketball and was an accomplished coach.

Milt Newton interim won a National championship at Kansas and played professionally for a few years.

Not sure where you want to put Layden who was an interim. He didn't play high level basketball but had been around the NBA game his whole life.

I've seen plenty of guys who played basketball at a high level suck as basketball executives. I don't really see a significant pattern but I'd be interested to see a study of success from guys who have played at some sort of high level and guys who didn't.

[Lipoli390]

Some of the issues were exacerbated this summer when Rosas and Gupta butted heads over Rosas' decision to block Gupta from making a lateral move to the Houston Rockets with increased pay, sources said. Rosas said the timing of the request, coming right before the draft and free agency, made it impossible for the Timberwolves to let someone with as much proprietary knowledge of the team's plans go to a competitor. The tension between Rosas and Gupta only grew later in August when Rosas banished Gupta from the team's offices and granted him permission to seek employment elsewhere, according to sources. The issue was resolved in early September after ownership got involved and Gupta decided to stay. - via Jon Krawczynski, Shams Charania, Jon Krawczynski and Shams Charania @ The Athletic


My take: You can see the dick factor in play here as Rosas apparently banished Gupta from the team's offices. That strikes me as a bush-league, petty maneuver and it is probably indicative of other similar actions by Rosas that would be problematic. However, I think Rosas was right to prohibit Gupta from making the lateral move to Houston. That decision by Rosas was in the best interest of the organization and was the sort of tough stance leaders in Gersson's position sometimes have to take.

Lip, I agree with everything you've said in your last few posts, but I disagree with your opinion that banishing Sachin Gupta from the team's offices was bush-league or petty and I think you'll see why. Rather, I see that as Gersson Rosas protecting the organization's interests similarly to how he blocked Gupta from leaving for a job with Houston before the draft. From my understanding, Rosas didn't banish Gupta for the sake of being petty. He removed him in order to allow him to seek employment elsewhere -- i.e. distancing Gupta from the organization and its plans while he proactively looked for another organization to take him in. That seems logical to me. If you have a subordinate determined to leave for a competitor, then you wouldn't want them to know your immediate plans, goals, and moves ahead of time. I find that to be a fair compromise on Rosas' part.

Good post, Cam. I see your point and agree that the "banishment" was probably a rational and defensible move to protect the organization and avoid any conflict of interest while Gupta was seeking employment elsewhere with competitors. The word "banishment" threw me off. It's a loaded term that, on reflection, Jon K should not have used in his article.

[FNG]

I don't think an executive has to have playing history to be successful in that role. There have been plenty of former players or coaches that have tried and failed in front office roles. I can also point to a number of executives who never played basketball at a high level and have been successful. There is no singular blueprint. The skills and traits required to be productive in that position are not basketball-related, though I'll add that any kind of background in basketball is a plus.

Yeah, I don't know that having played the game is essential either. Being able to recognize and evaluate talent was the first thought that came out of my mouth when asked what I would look for in a POBO, and perhaps first hand on-court experience may be helpful. But you can certainly find great players who have failed in front office jobs, and to a lesser extent, non-playing executives who have been successful.

My main point is that we seem to be an outlier in continuing to hire short, non-athletic POBO's. I spent a few minutes this morning reviewing the current list of POBO's in the league, and the first ten I looked at had at least high school court time if not college or NBA. We can say we don't know whether having played helps or not, but we can certainly say that we have been an outlier with Kahn, Rosas and Gupta. And we can all agree we have not been successful with this approach.

[FNG]

Does anyone else find it odd that the Wolves have a propensity to hire POBO's who have never played basketball at a high level or maybe not at all? If you look at the front offices of most NBA franchises, perhaps not all, but certainly most, POBO's have some on-court experience...at least in college if not the NBA. The Wolves on the other hand have a history of hiring guys who might be described as "the smartest guy in the room", but never played the game. David Kahn, Gersson Rosas, and now Sachin Gupta...have any of them ever actually played a game of basketball, even at the YMCA?

Driving back from the north shore yesterday and processing the Rosas news, my honey asked me what characteristics were important in a POBO. I listed the various generic management skills, but also said evaluating talent and fit had to be at the top of the list. How else are you going to make good draft and trade decisions? Maybe having some actual playing time at a high level has nothing to do with the ability to evaluate talent, but other franchises seem to think it does. Why do we prefer 5'9" sports management college grads over guys who actually know what it takes to win in the NBA?

So now we go forward with Sachin Gupta, a guy who probably has much more experience playing cricket than basketball, and once again we are an outlier. Maybe Gupta is just a placeholder until we find a true, experienced POBO. But looking at recent history, I suspect not.

So right now the ledger for guys that didn't play the game at a high level has David Kahn and Rosas and Gupta as an interim.

What about other guys?

McHale HOF player

Flip Saunders played high level college basketball and was a long time head coach.

Thibs played college basketball and was an accomplished coach.

Milt Newton interim won a National championship at Kansas and played professionally for a few years.

Not sure where you want to put Layden who was an interim. He didn't play high level basketball but had been around the NBA game his whole life.

I've seen plenty of guys who played basketball at a high level suck as basketball executives. I don't really see a significant pattern but I'd be interested to see a study of success from guys who have played at some sort of high level and guys who didn't.

Sure. But three of the last four Wolves POBO's never played the game to the best of our knowledge (I'm fairly confident none of the 3 has ever dunked a basketball :) ) Can you name 3 current NBA POBO's who have never competed on the court? I know I can't. Maybe we're doing it right and everyone else is doing it wrong, but I don't think the record supports that narrative.