OT - Making Sense of Tragedy

[mrhockey89]

While there have certainly been bad actors, I'd be careful with over-generalizing. I've seen videos of cops showing grace and appreciation for peaceful protesters, communicating with them in very friendly and kind ways. I have also seen others over-react and get disciplined for it, so there have been consequences. We also only see things through the lens of the video that is posted. Was there something that precipitated the incident that is unseen or unheard? Was the person that posted the video seeking out abusive cops while ignoring abusive protesters?

Having said that, I do think reform is needed in many police departments. One of the first places to start is the union and labor protections that were agreed to with local governments. If we want to talk about systemic problems in our inner cities, public unions has to be part of the conversation along with criminal justice reforms, training, etc.

The thing is, cops that actually do their job correctly and don't exhibit excessive force while also speaking up/stepping in when a fellow officer crosses the line are not at issue. I love seeing heartfelt moments between officer & community. I truly do, but it doesn't negate the truly disgusting behavior that even 1 cop exhibits if they are allowed to continue. Every single cop that clearly crosses the line needs to be singled out and reprimanded/fired/charged depending on the circumstances as does any cop who stood by letting it happen. I know it's a tough job, but it has to be zero tolerance. It just has to.

I've seen numerous video evidence just from the past week or so of cops grossly overstepping and even assaulting civilians for no reason that have yet to be fired/charged/reprimanded. Numerous incidents where crowds were being peaceful, often for long periods of time before police just randomly became aggressive towards them (they've maimed people including an award winning photographer who lost her eye). Media crews including major network crews have been shot at as well. 2 squads in NYC literally hit a crowd of protesters that were behind a police barrier. That's assault with a deadly weapon and what has happened to them? nothing and Blasio defended them when THEY took the aggressive action in the first place.

They've taken action on I think 6 cops that I know of out of dozens caught on video. 2 cops in ATL who tazed a couple in a car, 2 in BUF for shoving a 75 year old man (who hit the back of his head and was bleeding out his ear) and I think there were 2 others that I'm forgetting details on. While I applaud these departments for taking action, that's still only 3 out of dozens of blatant excessive force incidents.

We have to demand more. This time it finally feels different and I truly believe real legit reform can be had, but people have to act. They have to do their jobs and do what is right. We so badly need vast change and this would be a big place to start.

WOW! Apparently you missed what transpired to cause that situation. The "peaceful protesters" pulled the barricade in front of the police cruiser, blocking their path out. The second cruiser pushed through the crowd (at the speed on the steamroller in Austin Powers " NOOOOOO!") to clear the barrier allowing both squads to exit the area safely.

I am guessing none of you saw the video of the aussie film crew in Mpls/SP at the "peaceful protest" where one protester stabbed another. After being ridiculed by the film crew for waiting two blocks down the road (waiting to assemble enough help) the police moved in to arrest the stabber, render help to the victim, all the while having bricks and stones thrown at them. One "peaceful protester" threw a rock about 8 inches in diameter at the police squad as they were leaving putting a huge dent in the drivers door. A foot and a half higher and it may killed the officer.

If these protests are so peaceful, why does the Wash DC Mayor need five body guards?

If the city council wants to disband the MPD and send social workers and medics on police calls (yes they really said this), I suggest sending the council members on a few calls by themselves on a trial basis. Maybe they can calm down the situation by singing Amazing Grace again.

I didn't see the video nor know the stabbing event being referenced, but I'll admit I like the idea of sending the City Council members on police calls for a week and see if they still want people to call their neighbors and coworkers for help rather than the police.

[apollotsg [enjin:6592798]]

I want to apologize for my other post coming off angry, I am angry but I should have known better so I took a time out.

I had read a few comments and I would like to share more in this discussion.

1. "The laws/enforcement were not different or were debunked"
BS - there are a million ways the laws have been subtly written to target specific groups - if you think the people that wrote these were blind to race, creed, or gender then I can give you some great reading sources. But I don't think the information is the issue, I think it is biased and the reluctance to accept what you once held as something true is now bs, that is a big hurdle for some people.

The selection and design of drug laws were specifically geared towards combating crack (and yes I know the difference between crack and cocaine). It started with Nixon and continued to today, this is a quote from John Ehrlichman, Nixon's aide on domestic affairs: "You want to know what this was really all about?" Ehrlichman asked, referring to the war on drugs. "The Nixon campaign in 1968, and the Nixon White House after that, had two enemies: the antiwar left and black people. You understand what I'm saying? We knew we couldn't make it illegal to be either against the war or black, but by getting the public to associate the hippies with marijuana and blacks with heroin, and then criminalizing both heavily, we could disrupt those communities. We could arrest their leaders, raid their homes, break up their meetings, and vilify them night after night on the evening news." "Did we know we were lying about the drugs? Of course we did," he concluded, according to Baum.

This was lifted directly from https://www.businessinsider.com/nixon-adviser-ehrlichman-anti-left-anti-black-war-on-drugs-2019-7 which is about Baums book: Dan Baum, the author of 1996's "Smoke and Mirrors: The War on Drugs and the Politics of Failure.

2. The person claiming "Black leaders wrote/pushed these laws" - that is very wrong sir. The American Legislative Exchange Council is responsible for many of the war on drug laws for all the previous administrations...corporate America literally wrote them so... I encourage all of you to start looking at the private entities that are pushing laws. There are lawmakers who have introduced their laws and forgot to remove the "insert state name here" - that is how ridiculous this is.


3. The other more interesting debate that was started on personal choice. I don't think anyone is suggesting that people should not be held accountable for their actions, nor is anyone saying give a open excuse for illegal shit BUT... This is going back to high school here boys and girls, remember in your class that nature vs nurture, you may want to dust off that google search and research how the environment impacts your decision making.

The argument "you" are making is the vast majority of the American black population is just inherently bad and predisposed to criminal activity. You shrug your shoulders and say black people have a culture of violence and law-breaking. Unless you are telling me crime statistics are telling a different story - please explain it to me.

Before you do that, watch this documentary and tell me where all the personal choices that were wrong in this documentary: LaLee's Kin: The Legacy of Cotton (2001). Then, look each person in the face and tell us the little girl had the same options and path to the American dream as some random Wayzata girl of the same age. Tell me how it's her crappy personal choices.

[TheGrey08]

The thing is, cops that actually do their job correctly and don't exhibit excessive force while also speaking up/stepping in when a fellow officer crosses the line are not at issue. I love seeing heartfelt moments between officer & community. I truly do, but it doesn't negate the truly disgusting behavior that even 1 cop exhibits if they are allowed to continue. Every single cop that clearly crosses the line needs to be singled out and reprimanded/fired/charged depending on the circumstances as does any cop who stood by letting it happen. I know it's a tough job, but it has to be zero tolerance. It just has to.

I've seen numerous video evidence just from the past week or so of cops grossly overstepping and even assaulting civilians for no reason that have yet to be fired/charged/reprimanded. Numerous incidents where crowds were being peaceful, often for long periods of time before police just randomly became aggressive towards them (they've maimed people including an award winning photographer who lost her eye). Media crews including major network crews have been shot at as well. 2 squads in NYC literally hit a crowd of protesters that were behind a police barrier. That's assault with a deadly weapon and what has happened to them? nothing and Blasio defended them when THEY took the aggressive action in the first place.

They've taken action on I think 6 cops that I know of out of dozens caught on video. 2 cops in ATL who tazed a couple in a car, 2 in BUF for shoving a 75 year old man (who hit the back of his head and was bleeding out his ear) and I think there were 2 others that I'm forgetting details on. While I applaud these departments for taking action, that's still only 3 out of dozens of blatant excessive force incidents.

We have to demand more. This time it finally feels different and I truly believe real legit reform can be had, but people have to act. They have to do their jobs and do what is right. We so badly need vast change and this would be a big place to start.

WOW! Apparently you missed what transpired to cause that situation. The "peaceful protesters" pulled the barricade in front of the police cruiser, blocking their path out. The second cruiser pushed through the crowd (at the speed on the steamroller in Austin Powers " NOOOOOO!") to clear the barrier allowing both squads to exit the area safely.

I am guessing none of you saw the video of the aussie film crew in Mpls/SP at the "peaceful protest" where one protester stabbed another. After being ridiculed by the film crew for waiting two blocks down the road (waiting to assemble enough help) the police moved in to arrest the stabber, render help to the victim, all the while having bricks and stones thrown at them. One "peaceful protester" threw a rock about 8 inches in diameter at the police squad as they were leaving putting a huge dent in the drivers door. A foot and a half higher and it may killed the officer.

If these protests are so peaceful, why does the Wash DC Mayor need five body guards?

If the city council wants to disband the MPD and send social workers and medics on police calls (yes they really said this), I suggest sending the council members on a few calls by themselves on a trial basis. Maybe they can calm down the situation by singing Amazing Grace again.

I've yet to see any evidence or anything to support the narrative that those squads were "trapped" or "surrounded". If you have links showing the contrary, lets see them. As it stands they easily could have reversed and gotten away from the crowd. And sure the protesters moved the barrier, but why did the squad roll up on them like that in the first place?

What does the video of an aussie film crew have to do with the fact we have seen dozens of instances of cops CLEARLY crossing the line? 1 great deed doesn't negate another by other cops. It's baffling to me how this is often the defense, "oh but what about THIS?", when all it is is a distraction that is besides the point.

When I reference peaceful protests, it means the ones that are in fact peaceful (which MOST of them are in case you didn't know) and I often know this because I know people down there that are strictly peaceful (including my sister who was almost hit by that semi). She has directly told me things that I've yet to even hear in the media. I've also watched live streams and not just of clipped videos from mainstream media.

People have also stated that they've seen inciters randomly come up and start throwing shit at police to get them to react violently, multiple instances where police all of a sudden reacted aggressively to a crowd unprovoked, numerous instances where squads shoot pepper spray on protesters not even on the roadway (my sis was walking on the grass on the side of an on ramp getting away from the 35W bridge when squads came down it spraying mace at them), so lets seriously stop trying to depict protesters as being violent and cops "just protecting themselves" because it's quite frankly bullshit.

Since you seem to have a very negative bias towards the protesters in general, I sure hope you don't think all the fires were done by protesters (some were, most were not) and if you haven't paid attention to local news here, they found a lot of stolen vehicles without plates that contained fire starting materials, rocks & other things used for destruction.

No one is saying there aren't violent assholes out there during these protests, but depicting thousands of people as "thugs" and "rioters" when it's a TINY percentage of people is beyond ridiculous.

Oh and I might as well mention this too. Right wing media and others have tried blaming the rioting/destruction/fires on Antifa, but the FBI came out and said they have found zero evidence to back that up, but have intel showing right wing extremist groups were involved. Funny how narrative works.

[TheGrey08]

Well said Khans. You went right to the heart of it and what it's truly about. Brees was just another person parroting the narrative of people trying to make kneeling during the anthem a disrespect to the military when that was never what it was about. In fact, they started kneeling as to NOT disrespect the military and it was suggested by someone in the military.

When has kneeling EVER been considered a negative or disrespectful act before the anthem kneeling happened? I honestly cannot think of any other example where kneeling was seeing as anything but respectful. CWhen has kneeling EVER been considered a negative or disrespectful act before the anthem kneeling happened? I honestly cannot think of any other example where kneeling was seeing as anything but respectful. Can anyone think of a single example prior to this?

Isn't this said every time before the national anthem is played? "Ladies and gentleman, please rise as (so and so) performs our star spangled banner". I don't know how the act of rising to our feet began, but we've been asked to do it for a century.

So I take that as you have no other example then? Cool.

PS: Your response is obviously beside the point. After all this is America where we have freedoms and there's no law saying you have to even recognize the anthem. So again I ask, can you come up with a single other instance where kneeling is seen as anything, but respectful?

[apollotsg [enjin:6592798]]

When a child is hurt during a sporting event - what do we teach our children to do out of respect?

Let me be the guy in the room that points out there are some children who are hurt, I need each of you MFers to take a knee out of respect until those kids are not hurt.

[AbeVigodaLive]

The thing is, cops that actually do their job correctly and don't exhibit excessive force while also speaking up/stepping in when a fellow officer crosses the line are not at issue. I love seeing heartfelt moments between officer & community. I truly do, but it doesn't negate the truly disgusting behavior that even 1 cop exhibits if they are allowed to continue. Every single cop that clearly crosses the line needs to be singled out and reprimanded/fired/charged depending on the circumstances as does any cop who stood by letting it happen. I know it's a tough job, but it has to be zero tolerance. It just has to.

I've seen numerous video evidence just from the past week or so of cops grossly overstepping and even assaulting civilians for no reason that have yet to be fired/charged/reprimanded. Numerous incidents where crowds were being peaceful, often for long periods of time before police just randomly became aggressive towards them (they've maimed people including an award winning photographer who lost her eye). Media crews including major network crews have been shot at as well. 2 squads in NYC literally hit a crowd of protesters that were behind a police barrier. That's assault with a deadly weapon and what has happened to them? nothing and Blasio defended them when THEY took the aggressive action in the first place.

They've taken action on I think 6 cops that I know of out of dozens caught on video. 2 cops in ATL who tazed a couple in a car, 2 in BUF for shoving a 75 year old man (who hit the back of his head and was bleeding out his ear) and I think there were 2 others that I'm forgetting details on. While I applaud these departments for taking action, that's still only 3 out of dozens of blatant excessive force incidents.

We have to demand more. This time it finally feels different and I truly believe real legit reform can be had, but people have to act. They have to do their jobs and do what is right. We so badly need vast change and this would be a big place to start.

WOW! Apparently you missed what transpired to cause that situation. The "peaceful protesters" pulled the barricade in front of the police cruiser, blocking their path out. The second cruiser pushed through the crowd (at the speed on the steamroller in Austin Powers " NOOOOOO!") to clear the barrier allowing both squads to exit the area safely.

I am guessing none of you saw the video of the aussie film crew in Mpls/SP at the "peaceful protest" where one protester stabbed another. After being ridiculed by the film crew for waiting two blocks down the road (waiting to assemble enough help) the police moved in to arrest the stabber, render help to the victim, all the while having bricks and stones thrown at them. One "peaceful protester" threw a rock about 8 inches in diameter at the police squad as they were leaving putting a huge dent in the drivers door. A foot and a half higher and it may killed the officer.

If these protests are so peaceful, why does the Wash DC Mayor need five body guards?

If the city council wants to disband the MPD and send social workers and medics on police calls (yes they really said this), I suggest sending the council members on a few calls by themselves on a trial basis. Maybe they can calm down the situation by singing Amazing Grace again.

I've yet to see any evidence or anything to support the narrative that those squads were "trapped" or "surrounded". If you have links showing the contrary, lets see them. As it stands they easily could have reversed and gotten away from the crowd. And sure the protesters moved the barrier, but why did the squad roll up on them like that in the first place?

What does the video of an aussie film crew have to do with the fact we have seen dozens of instances of cops CLEARLY crossing the line? 1 great deed doesn't negate another by other cops. It's baffling to me how this is often the defense, "oh but what about THIS?", when all it is is a distraction that is besides the point.

When I reference peaceful protests, it means the ones that are in fact peaceful (which MOST of them are in case you didn't know) and I often know this because I know people down there that are strictly peaceful (including my sister who was almost hit by that semi). She has directly told me things that I've yet to even hear in the media. I've also watched live streams and not just of clipped videos from mainstream media.

People have also stated that they've seen inciters randomly come up and start throwing shit at police to get them to react violently, multiple instances where police all of a sudden reacted aggressively to a crowd unprovoked, numerous instances where squads shoot pepper spray on protesters not even on the roadway (my sis was walking on the grass on the side of an on ramp getting away from the 35W bridge when squads came down it spraying mace at them), so lets seriously stop trying to depict protesters as being violent and cops "just protecting themselves" because it's quite frankly bullshit.

Since you seem to have a very negative bias towards the protesters in general, I sure hope you don't think all the fires were done by protesters (some were, most were not) and if you haven't paid attention to local news here, they found a lot of stolen vehicles without plates that contained fire starting materials, rocks & other things used for destruction.

No one is saying there aren't violent assholes out there during these protests, but depicting thousands of people as "thugs" and "rioters" when it's a TINY percentage of people is beyond ridiculous.

Oh and I might as well mention this too. Right wing media and others have tried blaming the rioting/destruction/fires on Antifa, but the FBI came out and said they have found zero evidence to back that up, but have intel showing right wing extremist groups were involved. Funny how narrative works.

Shortly after the George Floyd murder... nearly 100% of those who saw it were united in "That was wrong!' at the very least.

It was an amazing moment for our times. Since then, we've found ways to divide ourselves. Again.

- Are you a supporter of the protests? Well then you're in luck! Because we have dozens upon dozens of quick videos and memes and stories and everything else showing just how draconian our police state really is. Just click here to see them... and share them with like-minded people!

- Are you a frustrated or angry by the looting and against the political leanings of most inner cities? Well then you're in luck! Because we have dozens upon dozens of quick videos and memes and stories and everything else showing just crazy and mean those looters were and all the damage they caused innocent people. Just click here to see them... and share them with other like-minded people!

[kekgeek]

Well said Khans. You went right to the heart of it and what it's truly about. Brees was just another person parroting the narrative of people trying to make kneeling during the anthem a disrespect to the military when that was never what it was about. In fact, they started kneeling as to NOT disrespect the military and it was suggested by someone in the military.

When has kneeling EVER been considered a negative or disrespectful act before the anthem kneeling happened? I honestly cannot think of any other example where kneeling was seeing as anything but respectful. CWhen has kneeling EVER been considered a negative or disrespectful act before the anthem kneeling happened? I honestly cannot think of any other example where kneeling was seeing as anything but respectful. Can anyone think of a single example prior to this?

Isn't this said every time before the national anthem is played? "Ladies and gentleman, please rise as (so and so) performs our star spangled banner". I don't know how the act of rising to our feet began, but we've been asked to do it for a century.

So I take that as you have no other example then? Cool.

PS: Your response is obviously beside the point. After all this is America where we have freedoms and there's no law saying you have to even recognize the anthem. So again I ask, can you come up with a single other instance where kneeling is seen as anything, but respectful?

The NFL stayed in the Lockerroom until 2009 during the national anthem. They started coming out for a recruiting tool for the military

[bleedspeed]

The NFL stayed in the Lockerroom until 2009 during the national anthem. They started coming out for a recruiting tool for the military

As a kid, I didn't understand it. After 911 it was very clear. Once we have lost the intent of what it stands for why do it. Time to go back to staying in the locker room or not doing the anthem at all.

[TheGrey08]

Shortly after the George Floyd murder... nearly 100% of those who saw it were united in "That was wrong!' at the very least.

It was an amazing moment for our times. Since then, we've found ways to divide ourselves. Again.

- Are you a supporter of the protests? Well then you're in luck! Because we have dozens upon dozens of quick videos and memes and stories and everything else showing just how draconian our police state really is. Just click here to see them... and share them with like-minded people!

- Are you a frustrated or angry by the looting and against the political leanings of most inner cities? Well then you're in luck! Because we have dozens upon dozens of quick videos and memes and stories and everything else showing just crazy and mean those looters were and all the damage they caused innocent people. Just click here to see them... and share them with other like-minded people!

Precisely. The internet has made it really easy to tribalize and divide, especially when you factor in all the misinformation, cherry picked information and twisted/exaggerated headlines, etc. The all or nothing mentality is really sad these days. Most people easily share 50-60% of their views, but you'd never know it based on the us vs them mentality.

My SN isn't just something random either. Years ago I was just thinking about the world and how people often act like most things are black & white, but in reality the vast majority of life falls lies within the grey in between and so I decided to make that my internet moniker. I've always strived to look at things from all sides, even when it's hard to do.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Shortly after the George Floyd murder... nearly 100% of those who saw it were united in "That was wrong!' at the very least.

It was an amazing moment for our times. Since then, we've found ways to divide ourselves. Again.

- Are you a supporter of the protests? Well then you're in luck! Because we have dozens upon dozens of quick videos and memes and stories and everything else showing just how draconian our police state really is. Just click here to see them... and share them with like-minded people!

- Are you a frustrated or angry by the looting and against the political leanings of most inner cities? Well then you're in luck! Because we have dozens upon dozens of quick videos and memes and stories and everything else showing just crazy and mean those looters were and all the damage they caused innocent people. Just click here to see them... and share them with other like-minded people!

Precisely. The internet has made it really easy to tribalize and divide, especially when you factor in all the misinformation, cherry picked information and twisted/exaggerated headlines, etc. The all or nothing mentality is really sad these days. Most people easily share 50-60% of their views, but you'd never know it based on the us vs them mentality.

My SN isn't just something random either. Years ago I was just thinking about the world and how people often act like most things are black & white, but in reality the vast majority of life falls lies within the grey in between and so I decided to make that my internet moniker. I've always strived to look at things from all sides, even when it's hard to do.

Ha. I included very similar thoughts about "black/white/gray" as well... but I went with 80%...

Then again... that 80% was from my thinking a couple of years ago. By normalizing the 10% on either side... we're slowly taking more away from those in the middle.




[Note: Obviously, my SN is because I was a huge fan of Kim Fields on The Facts of Life. ... errr... Mike Seaver? Sam Malone? Rudy Huxtable? Damn it. I forget.]