Minnesota Sports Forum

Carlos Danger wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
Yes. Defenses are incredibly smart and sophisticated at this level and at this stage. It's easier to defend a lack of spacing than to create it. Teams will dare Thompson to shoot. Not having to defend the PF (or C) beyond 8 feet lets defenders clog lanes that would otherwise be open.

The current NBA is very much about spacing. And for all his warts, that's one thing Love gives Cleveland. I do think Thompson helps defensively though. But I don't see the Cavs being a legit title threat without Love.

Not having to defend a guy beyond 8 feet can clog lanes. But it also provides rebounding and easy put backs. Somehow I think LeBron James and Kyrie Irving will still find a way to score without Kevin Love's epic spacing. Just a hunch by me....

I already replied to this. But this time I bring stats. I think they can be helpful sometimes... or at least do a better job than my explanations might be able to do. And I think the quest for spacing in the new NBA is a legit discussion:

___________________

LeBron with love on the floor shoots 50.6%, without 45.4%. 43.2% in Playoffs w/o Love
Average shot distance with Love on the floor 11.7', Without 12.9'

Turnovers per game while Love on the floor 3.6, without 4.9

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Carlos Danger wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
Yes. Defenses are incredibly smart and sophisticated at this level and at this stage. It's easier to defend a lack of spacing than to create it. Teams will dare Thompson to shoot. Not having to defend the PF (or C) beyond 8 feet lets defenders clog lanes that would otherwise be open.

The current NBA is very much about spacing. And for all his warts, that's one thing Love gives Cleveland. I do think Thompson helps defensively though. But I don't see the Cavs being a legit title threat without Love.

Not having to defend a guy beyond 8 feet can clog lanes. But it also provides rebounding and easy put backs. Somehow I think LeBron James and Kyrie Irving will still find a way to score without Kevin Love's epic spacing. Just a hunch by me....

I already replied to this. But this time I bring stats. I think they can be helpful sometimes... or at least do a better job than my explanations might be able to do. And I think the quest for spacing in the new NBA is a legit discussion:

___________________

LeBron with love on the floor shoots 50.6%, without 45.4%. 43.2% in Playoffs w/o Love
Average shot distance with Love on the floor 11.7', Without 12.9'

Turnovers per game while Love on the floor 3.6, without 4.9

Those stats remind me of how KG's FG% would always start going up when Wally came back from injury.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

thedoper wrote:McCollum has been good. But if Bazz was doing the same thing on Portland right now I am sure we would all be saying how we wanted him all along. I wish the best to both of them even though Bazz was always my guy. Patience should unfortunately still be the mantra of Wolves fans. One day Bazz will get his in the playoffs.

Will it be in Minnesota?

Good question Abe? Your question actually contains two questions: (1) Will the Wolves ever make the playoffs, and (2) will Bazz be with the Wolves if/when they do? I'm pretty sure Bazz will be with the Wolves for a long time because Flip loves him. I'm not so sure about the answer to the first question. :).

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Carlos Danger wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
Yes. Defenses are incredibly smart and sophisticated at this level and at this stage. It's easier to defend a lack of spacing than to create it. Teams will dare Thompson to shoot. Not having to defend the PF (or C) beyond 8 feet lets defenders clog lanes that would otherwise be open.

The current NBA is very much about spacing. And for all his warts, that's one thing Love gives Cleveland. I do think Thompson helps defensively though. But I don't see the Cavs being a legit title threat without Love.

Not having to defend a guy beyond 8 feet can clog lanes. But it also provides rebounding and easy put backs. Somehow I think LeBron James and Kyrie Irving will still find a way to score without Kevin Love's epic spacing. Just a hunch by me....

I already replied to this. But this time I bring stats. I think they can be helpful sometimes... or at least do a better job than my explanations might be able to do. And I think the quest for spacing in the new NBA is a legit discussion:

___________________

LeBron with love on the floor shoots 50.6%, without 45.4%. 43.2% in Playoffs w/o Love
Average shot distance with Love on the floor 11.7', Without 12.9'

Turnovers per game while Love on the floor 3.6, without 4.9

Awesome. I'll stick in a pin in this knowing that your conclusion (after what appears to be a deep and thorough statistical analysis containing three stats) is that LeBron James is in big trouble without the wondrous spacing of Kevin Love. And now we can watch the next series and it will be proven conclusively if you are right or if you are wrong. Will King James survive? Tune in next week....

Carlos Danger wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Carlos Danger wrote:

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
Yes. Defenses are incredibly smart and sophisticated at this level and at this stage. It's easier to defend a lack of spacing than to create it. Teams will dare Thompson to shoot. Not having to defend the PF (or C) beyond 8 feet lets defenders clog lanes that would otherwise be open.

The current NBA is very much about spacing. And for all his warts, that's one thing Love gives Cleveland. I do think Thompson helps defensively though. But I don't see the Cavs being a legit title threat without Love.

Not having to defend a guy beyond 8 feet can clog lanes. But it also provides rebounding and easy put backs. Somehow I think LeBron James and Kyrie Irving will still find a way to score without Kevin Love's epic spacing. Just a hunch by me....

I already replied to this. But this time I bring stats. I think they can be helpful sometimes... or at least do a better job than my explanations might be able to do. And I think the quest for spacing in the new NBA is a legit discussion:

___________________

LeBron with love on the floor shoots 50.6%, without 45.4%. 43.2% in Playoffs w/o Love
Average shot distance with Love on the floor 11.7', Without 12.9'

Turnovers per game while Love on the floor 3.6, without 4.9

Awesome. I'll stick in a pin in this knowing that your conclusion (after what appears to be a deep and thorough statistical analysis containing three stats) is that LeBron James is in big trouble without the wondrous spacing of Kevin Love. And now we can watch the next series and it will be proven conclusively if you are right or if you are wrong. Will King James survive? Tune in next week....

Don't really understand your sarcasm, bitterness or whatever it is...

I made a claim. And it wasn't a unique claim. Spacing is a very real issue in the NBA right now. Then, I dared to use stats to back it up. Like many other times on this site... the people who use stats to help illustrate a point get attacked... it's an odd phenomenon I haven't seen before.

Aren't we supposed to try to support our takes with actual analysis and stuff? How is that a bad thing, yet it seems to be for some people here.

1. LeBron James is still probably the best player in the NBA with or without Love. His usage rating will be off the charts without Love and he will post MONSTER stats.
2. Irving will get his without Love.
3. Less spacing = more helpside defensive help vs. James and Irving.
4. Their efficiency could wane considering they'll be more help available... sooner. Where they could once get all the way to the rim, they may have to pull up.
5. The stats from the regular season seem to support this.

Reasonable take. Followed by stats to support it. Results in snarky takes from Carlos Danger.

Fair enough. I guess.

AbeVigodaLive wrote:

Don't really understand your sarcasm, bitterness or whatever it is...

I made a claim. And it wasn't a unique claim. Spacing is a very real issue in the NBA right now. Then, I dared to use stats to back it up. Like many other times on this site... the people who use stats to help illustrate a point get attacked... it's an odd phenomenon I haven't seen before.

Aren't we supposed to try to support our takes with actual analysis and stuff? How is that a bad thing, yet it seems to be for some people here.

1. LeBron James is still probably the best player in the NBA with or without Love. His usage rating will be off the charts without Love and he will post MONSTER stats.
2. Irving will get his without Love.
3. Less spacing = more helpside defensive help vs. James and Irving.
4. Their efficiency could wane considering they'll be more help available... sooner. Where they could once get all the way to the rim, they may have to pull up.
5. The stats from the regular season seem to support this.

Reasonable take. Followed by stats to support it. Results in snarky takes from Carlos Danger.

Fair enough. I guess.

Guy - nobody is attacking you. I stated my opinion that LeBron James and Kyrie Irving will probably find a way to score without Kevin Love spacing the floor. You respond several days later with some stats showing how the spacing could be a major problem (I assume that's what you were trying to say). I tend to believe that's overblown. We have our opinions. Now let's watch the games.

Nobody said they wouldn't score. Not even close, of course they're going to score. They may even score more... so I didn't understand the snark or those comments. But even a slight drop in efficiency can be the difference between a ECF and a championship team. And generally, spacing improved efficiency.

So it's been a few days since I asked about TT ability on defense and basically either nobody really knows (a couple people said TT is better but backed it up with nothing more than that) or cares enough to look it up which I can't blame them because I don't really either. So basically his upgrade there doesn't seem to be all that noteworthy compared to Love's obvious offensive upgrade. Like someone else mentioned TT real value late in a game likely comes on the offensive boards.

As for Abe pointing out spacing and then putting up some stats and basically saying hey here is something to add to the conversation and then a pretty snarky comment comes back. Why can't we have more reasonable discourse here? This is for fun passionate fans I personally see no reason to rip each other for takes. Part of it is we all like to be right. I'm as guilty as any of doing just that. I suggest leaving some of the stuff (discussions that got somewhat ugly) in the past and try and have something more respectful across the board and maybe having more of a sense of humor about this could help there also. That's just my view.

monsterpile wrote:So it's been a few days since I asked about TT ability on defense and basically either nobody really knows (a couple people said TT is better but backed it up with nothing more than that) or cares enough to look it up which I can't blame them because I don't really either. So basically his upgrade there doesn't seem to be all that noteworthy compared to Love's obvious offensive upgrade. Like someone else mentioned TT real value late in a game likely comes on the offensive boards.

As for Abe pointing out spacing and then putting up some stats and basically saying hey here is something to add to the conversation and then a pretty snarky comment comes back. Why can't we have more reasonable discourse here? This is for fun passionate fans I personally see no reason to rip each other for takes. Part of it is we all like to be right. I'm as guilty as any of doing just that. I suggest leaving some of the stuff (discussions that got somewhat ugly) in the past and try and have something more respectful across the board and maybe having more of a sense of humor about this could help there also. That's just my view.

The differences between the two from the stats I could find show little difference between the two.

Thompson's biggest advantage is blocked shots and that equates to 0.4 more BPG per 36 minutes. Love out rebounded him on the defensive end by 6.6%. Love had a 2.9 defensive win shares to TT's 2.1. I can't find anything that points to TT being a significantly better defender than Love, but I also can't find opponent FG% for the two which would be the only other one I could think of to find where TT would really have to be significantly better for that idea of him being a much better defender to ring true.

Edit: I found some opponent FG% on NBAdotcom. For defended FG% Love was 56.6 and Thompson was 58 on shots inside of 6ft. For less than 10ft TT has the slight edge of 52.7 to Love's 53.3. Either way more proof that defensively Thompson isn't a significant upgrade on that end so that idea can be put to bed that they're better off defensively with TT. Seems like a wash to me.

khans2k5 wrote:
The differences between the two from the stats I could find show little difference between the two.

Thompson's biggest advantage is blocked shots and that equates to 0.4 more BPG per 36 minutes. Love out rebounded him on the defensive end by 6.6%. Love had a 2.9 defensive win shares to TT's 2.1. I can't find anything that points to TT being a significantly better defender than Love, but I also can't find opponent FG% for the two which would be the only other one I could think of to find where TT would really have to be significantly better for that idea of him being a much better defender to ring true.

Here's an interesting one - three man combos. From the regular season (net 100 possessions):

Irving/James/Love were +13.6
Irving/James/TT were +13.3

I've never argued that the Cavs will be better without Love. But I do think it might not be as huge of a drop off as others seem to think. We'll find out soon enough.