Minnesota Sports Forum

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 11:06 am

Carlos Danger wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 8:38 am Iowa lost again last night. They must think if they keep tanking they will get a better draft pick

Here is the box:
https://gleague.nba.com/game/iwa-vs-scw ... =box-score

Leonard Miller had 30 and 9, but as is usual, he was a team worst -11.

Tyrese Martin went for 20 and 9. I wouldn't mind giving this guy a look with one of the open roster spots. I know nothing about his defense. But he seems like he can shoot the three and rebound well.

Looks like all the main guys were a minus. . I’m down on Miller, but we can’t write him off given his young age and lack of high-level basketball experience.I like that he’s putting up big scoring AND rebounding numbers. He and Minott remain essential young high-upside talents in an organization sorely lacking young talent and draft picks.

Martin continues to intrigue me. Like you, I wouldn’t mind adding slotting him into our last roster spot.

FNG wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 11:29 am

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 11:06 am

Carlos Danger wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 8:38 am Iowa lost again last night. They must think if they keep tanking they will get a better draft pick

Here is the box:
https://gleague.nba.com/game/iwa-vs-scw ... =box-score

Leonard Miller had 30 and 9, but as is usual, he was a team worst -11.

Tyrese Martin went for 20 and 9. I wouldn't mind giving this guy a look with one of the open roster spots. I know nothing about his defense. But he seems like he can shoot the three and rebound well.

Looks like all the main guys were a minus. . I’m down on Miller, but we can’t write him off given his young age and lack of high-level basketball experience.I like that he’s putting up big scoring AND rebounding numbers. He and Minott remain essential young high-upside talents in an organization sorely lacking young talent and draft picks.

Martin continues to intrigue me. Like you, I wouldn’t mind adding slotting him into our last roster spot.

Thanks for all the updates on the G League, guys. Miller is intriguing, although nobody knows how he eventually going to turn out. I note that his +/- was more than 7 points better last season than this when he played on a better team, and I wonder if we are focusing too much on this stat. It seems to me that on/off might be a better measure, but I'm not sure where to find that. One thing for certain...his raw stats are impressive.

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 12:48 pm

FNG wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 11:29 am

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 11:06 am

Looks like all the main guys were a minus. . I’m down on Miller, but we can’t write him off given his young age and lack of high-level basketball experience.I like that he’s putting up big scoring AND rebounding numbers. He and Minott remain essential young high-upside talents in an organization sorely lacking young talent and draft picks.

Martin continues to intrigue me. Like you, I wouldn’t mind adding slotting him into our last roster spot.

Thanks for all the updates on the G League, guys. Miller is intriguing, although nobody knows how he eventually going to turn out. I note that his +/- was more than 7 points better last season than this when he played on a better team, and I wonder if we are focusing too much on this stat. It seems to me that on/off might be a better measure, but I'm not sure where to find that. One thing for certain...his raw stats are impressive.

I agree, FNG. I don’t think +/- is a particularly accurate metric for assessing any player on the Iowa Wolves. It’s obvious that the Iowa team as a whole is terrible, which I attribute that to overall collection of players AND coaching. You just can’t put any stock in a player’s +/- on such a terrible team. After this season, it’s imperative that the organization replace the Iowa Wolves head coach. We don’t want our minor League team to develop a culture of losing. Beyond that, we need more/better young talent in the organization. If the season ended today, we’d have the 29th and 36th picks in the NBA draft. So we’ll have a chance to upgrade the young talent in the organization this summer through the draft. I can see trading both picks to move up a bit in the 1st round for a player our front office really wants. There are a number of young G-League players on two-ways for other NBA teams who are playing really well - e.g., Jacob Toppin with the Knicks affiliate. So perhaps we can poach some young talent from other organizations. Meanwhile, it would be foolish to give up on Miller or Minott at this point given their age and limited experience before being drafted. Moore, on the other hand, looks like trade fodder to me.

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 1:43 pm

Lipoli390 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 12:48 pm

FNG wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 11:29 am

Thanks for all the updates on the G League, guys. Miller is intriguing, although nobody knows how he eventually going to turn out. I note that his +/- was more than 7 points better last season than this when he played on a better team, and I wonder if we are focusing too much on this stat. It seems to me that on/off might be a better measure, but I'm not sure where to find that. One thing for certain...his raw stats are impressive.

I agree, FNG. I don’t think +/- is a particularly accurate metric for assessing any player on the Iowa Wolves. It’s obvious that the Iowa team as a whole is terrible, which I attribute that to overall collection of players AND coaching. You just can’t put any stock in a player’s +/- on such a terrible team. After this season, it’s imperative that the organization replace the Iowa Wolves head coach. We don’t want our minor League team to develop a culture of losing. Beyond that, we need more/better young talent in the organization. If the season ended today, we’d have the 29th and 36th picks in the NBA draft. So we’ll have a chance to upgrade the young talent in the organization this summer through the draft. I can see trading both picks to move up a bit in the 1st round for a player our front office really wants. There are a number of young G-League players on two-ways for other NBA teams who are playing really well - e.g., Jacob Toppin with the Knicks affiliate. So perhaps we can poach some young talent from other organizations. Meanwhile, it would be foolish to give up on Miller or Minott at this point given their age and limited experience before being drafted. Moore, on the other hand, looks like trade fodder to me.

Not sure if either of you guys have watched Miller play in the G-League. Call me crazy, but I've suffered through about a half dozen games or so. It's pretty clear why he has such a poor +/- when you watch him play defense. You guys can go over his box score stuff all you want and convince yourself of his potential, but none of that matters if he's giving up way more on defense than whatever he's producing on offense.

Now, if you want to blame coaching for his poor defense, fine. If you want to excuse it as youthful immaturity, that's fine too. May be you can convince yourself that with better coaching and cajoling team mates like Rudy and Kyle at the next level, he'll grow into a capable defender. But make no mistake that there is a direct cause and effect with his current +/- rating and his individual play.

60WinTim wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2024 5:22 pm

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2024 5:12 pm The other reason for the "Mmmmmm" is because the team finally won with the 2nd string no-name Center and PF playing in Miller and Minott's place. Tells you about all you need to know about these two.

I didn’t consider that inference of “Mmmm…”. Good point.

Carlos Danger wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 8:37 am I see Iowa played and lost again (big surprise) over the weekend. Here is the box:

https://gleague.nba.com/game/iwa-vs-scw ... =box-score

Tyrese Martin had 19 points and 16 rebounds. This guy is intriguing.

Miller went for 21 points and 10 rebounds. For the +/- guys...he was a team second best +6.

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 1:43 pm Not sure if either of you guys have watched Miller play in the G-League. Call me crazy, but I've suffered through about a half dozen games or so. It's pretty clear why he has such a poor +/- when you watch him play defense. You guys can go over his box score stuff all you want and convince yourself of his potential, but none of that matters if he's giving up way more on defense than whatever he's producing on offense.

Now, if you want to blame coaching for his poor defense, fine. If you want to excuse it as youthful immaturity, that's fine too. May be you can convince yourself that with better coaching and cajoling team mates like Rudy and Kyle at the next level, he'll grow into a capable defender. But make no mistake that there is a direct cause and effect with his current +/- rating and his individual play.

Carlos Danger wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:02 am

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 1:43 pm Not sure if either of you guys have watched Miller play in the G-League. Call me crazy, but I've suffered through about a half dozen games or so. It's pretty clear why he has such a poor +/- when you watch him play defense. You guys can go over his box score stuff all you want and convince yourself of his potential, but none of that matters if he's giving up way more on defense than whatever he's producing on offense.

Now, if you want to blame coaching for his poor defense, fine. If you want to excuse it as youthful immaturity, that's fine too. May be you can convince yourself that with better coaching and cajoling team mates like Rudy and Kyle at the next level, he'll grow into a capable defender. But make no mistake that there is a direct cause and effect with his current +/- rating and his individual play.

I don't watch the games...I'm more of a money ball/stat watcher. And his stats are a mixed bag, so I still don't know what we've got. Examples...I filtered stats from NBA.com to show both showcase and regular season (35 games). I then advanced filtered to show only players with 10 or more games (to eliminate small sample guys). I find Miller as

#28th in PPG
#18 in Rebounds/game
Both are pretty good considering his age. But even better when I see his minutes per game are way less than the leaders (he ranks like 90th on the list in MPG)

Now the bad side...his minus seven points/game plus/minus is at the very bottom of the league...something like 398th out of 409 players in my filter. That obviously plays into what you are saying above and I do not discount that by any means. I hope we get some games with the big team where he can play extended minutes. I would like to see him play with our guys to really get a better fix on what we have there.

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:54 am

Carlos Danger wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:02 am

Q-is-here wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 1:43 pm Not sure if either of you guys have watched Miller play in the G-League. Call me crazy, but I've suffered through about a half dozen games or so. It's pretty clear why he has such a poor +/- when you watch him play defense. You guys can go over his box score stuff all you want and convince yourself of his potential, but none of that matters if he's giving up way more on defense than whatever he's producing on offense.

Now, if you want to blame coaching for his poor defense, fine. If you want to excuse it as youthful immaturity, that's fine too. May be you can convince yourself that with better coaching and cajoling team mates like Rudy and Kyle at the next level, he'll grow into a capable defender. But make no mistake that there is a direct cause and effect with his current +/- rating and his individual play.

I don't watch the games...I'm more of a money ball/stat watcher. And his stats are a mixed bag, so I still don't know what we've got. Examples...I filtered stats from NBA.com to show both showcase and regular season (35 games). I then advanced filtered to show only players with 10 or more games (to eliminate small sample guys). I find Miller as

#28th in PPG
#18 in Rebounds/game
Both are pretty good considering his age. But even better when I see his minutes per game are way less than the leaders (he ranks like 90th on the list in MPG)

Now the bad side...his minus seven points/game plus/minus is at the very bottom of the league...something like 398th out of 409 players in my filter. That obviously plays into what you are saying above and I do not discount that by any means. I hope we get some games with the big team where he can play extended minutes. I would like to see him play with our guys to really get a better fix on what we have there.

If you look at just his regular season stats over 14 games, he is 11th in PPG and 6th in Rebounding. And he is younger than everyone above him in both categories. Given how young he is, I think it's fair to look at his most recent chunk of games versus Regular + Showcase since he's obviously been gradually taking on a bigger role with the Iowa team and still developing, especially on offense.

His usage, 3 point shooting, and assist rate have all increased throughout the course of the G-League season. He is without question one of the most naturally talented players on a G-league court on any given night. His defensive technique is absolute shit and his effort is generally poor, but like I said, it looked better in the last game I watched.

Assuming he eventually breaks through into an NBA rotation, I think his best position PF. While he has decent height and length, he is on the thin side and is just too much of a liability to anchor an NBA defense at Center. But put him between an elite defensive Center like Rudy and wing like Jaden and may be you can hide him while featuring him on offense.

The thing is, we already have KAT and Naz. Miller brings almost nothing to the table that those two can't already do for the most part (he may ultimately be a better ball handler and passer, but that is TBD). So unless we plan on trading one of those two, it's hard to see how Miller fits with this franchise over the medium term. I do think he could have some value as a trade chip.