Trade deadline discussion thread

[Monster]

I'm with Tim with Collins possibly being underrated.

18.1 ppg
8.4 reb
2.5 apg
53% fg / 45% 3fg / 87% ft
... in less than 30 mpg.

Even though his three-point shooting seems more like a fluke (36.5% for career)... Collins has playoff experience. But it could come down to him being a lesser player... but a better fit? I don't know. He takes fewer threes than Randle does. The lane might still be clogged.

________


Heck, this franchise mortgaged nearly everything for Joe Smith. I see similarities... only Collins has better stats and a more successful track record.

A lot of the reason for Collins becoming an afterthought in Atlanta was his three-point regression. He had surgery or something and one of his fingers was huge and sort of deformed. I don't know if it's now fixed or he's just learn to adapt to it... but he's a very valuable offensive weapon if he can hit those threes.

In terms of 3 point shooting he is the opposite of Randle. He is hitting over 54% of his corner 3's this year which would easily be a career high.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I'm with Tim with Collins possibly being underrated.

18.1 ppg
8.4 reb
2.5 apg
53% fg / 45% 3fg / 87% ft
... in less than 30 mpg.

Even though his three-point shooting seems more like a fluke (36.5% for career)... Collins has playoff experience. But it could come down to him being a lesser player... but a better fit? I don't know. He takes fewer threes than Randle does. The lane might still be clogged.

________


Heck, this franchise mortgaged nearly everything for Joe Smith. I see similarities... only Collins has better stats and a more successful track record.

A lot of the reason for Collins becoming an afterthought in Atlanta was his three-point regression. He had surgery or something and one of his fingers was huge and sort of deformed. I don't know if it's now fixed or he's just learn to adapt to it... but he's a very valuable offensive weapon if he can hit those threes.

In terms of 3 point shooting he is the opposite of Randle. He is hitting over 54% of his corner 3's this year which would easily be a career high.

You made a good point about creating offense though. That's not Collins. His 2.5 apg is easily a career high (and 2x as some seasons) but he's also averaging a career high of 2.6 TOs.

He's a finisher who doesn't need the ball in his hands. But he won't/can't create for anyone else.

And that leaves A LOT on Edwards' plate. Conley can't do it anymore. Dillingham isn't ready. That's not NAW's game. And Divicenzo is probably done for the season.

The Wolves sort of need Randle's playmaking juice right now even though he takes other things off the table. It's just looking like a misguided trade... or simply a decent trade that just didn't work out because of a bad fit.

[Q-is-here]

I'm with Tim with Collins possibly being underrated.

18.1 ppg
8.4 reb
2.5 apg
53% fg / 45% 3fg / 87% ft
... in less than 30 mpg.

Even though his three-point shooting seems more like a fluke (36.5% for career)... Collins has playoff experience. But it could come down to him being a lesser player... but a better fit? I don't know. He takes fewer threes than Randle does. The lane might still be clogged.

________


Heck, this franchise mortgaged nearly everything for Joe Smith. I see similarities... only Collins has better stats and a more successful track record.

A lot of the reason for Collins becoming an afterthought in Atlanta was his three-point regression. He had surgery or something and one of his fingers was huge and sort of deformed. I don't know if it's now fixed or he's just learn to adapt to it... but he's a very valuable offensive weapon if he can hit those threes.

In terms of 3 point shooting he is the opposite of Randle. He is hitting over 54% of his corner 3's this year which would easily be a career high.

You made a good point about creating offense though. That's not Collins. His 2.5 apg is easily a career high (and 2x as some seasons) but he's also averaging a career high of 2.6 TOs.

He's a finisher who doesn't need the ball in his hands. But he won't/can't create for anyone else.

And that leaves A LOT on Edwards' plate. Conley can't do it anymore. Dillingham isn't ready. That's not NAW's game. And Divicenzo is probably done for the season.

The Wolves sort of need Randle's playmaking juice right now even though he takes other things off the table. It's just looking like a misguided trade... or simply a decent trade that just didn't work out because of a bad fit.

I question how much we even need another PF if Randle were to be traded. You start Naz and then slide Jaden over to play the 4 more.....especially when Shannon, Jr. is healthy and ready to go since he's a pretty natural 3. May be we give Miller a look there too.

[Monster]

I'm with Tim with Collins possibly being underrated.

18.1 ppg
8.4 reb
2.5 apg
53% fg / 45% 3fg / 87% ft
... in less than 30 mpg.

Even though his three-point shooting seems more like a fluke (36.5% for career)... Collins has playoff experience. But it could come down to him being a lesser player... but a better fit? I don't know. He takes fewer threes than Randle does. The lane might still be clogged.

________


Heck, this franchise mortgaged nearly everything for Joe Smith. I see similarities... only Collins has better stats and a more successful track record.

A lot of the reason for Collins becoming an afterthought in Atlanta was his three-point regression. He had surgery or something and one of his fingers was huge and sort of deformed. I don't know if it's now fixed or he's just learn to adapt to it... but he's a very valuable offensive weapon if he can hit those threes.

In terms of 3 point shooting he is the opposite of Randle. He is hitting over 54% of his corner 3's this year which would easily be a career high.

You made a good point about creating offense though. That's not Collins. His 2.5 apg is easily a career high (and 2x as some seasons) but he's also averaging a career high of 2.6 TOs.

He's a finisher who doesn't need the ball in his hands. But he won't/can't create for anyone else.

And that leaves A LOT on Edwards' plate. Conley can't do it anymore. Dillingham isn't ready. That's not NAW's game. And Divicenzo is probably done for the season.

The Wolves sort of need Randle's playmaking juice right now even though he takes other things off the table. It's just looking like a misguided trade... or simply a decent trade that just didn't work out because of a bad fit.

People focus a lot on Randle but if D'Vincenzo stays healthy and keeps playing like he was the last chunk of games that trade starts looking like it makes sense especially with Conley falling off to some extent even though it seems like he has been coming around to being at least a reasonably valuable rotation player.

In the discussion about the trade after it happened Q brought up the idea of Randle maybe sacrificing his scoring and doing more other things. To some extent if Randle can do that it might actually make his value go up (not just to the Wolves but to other teams or maybe more teams see value in having him on the roster) although some of his numbers may go down.

I did read something I think it was on Twitter that Collins has made some progress as a passer and supposedly has simply played better this year. I'm willing to buy some of that however the Jazz are terrible this year of course it also sounds they have likely sat Collins sat games when he could have played. Neither guy is a stalwart defensively but Collins still is skinny looking and Randle has less length but is built much stronger. Which guy is better playing as a C for a few minutes a game at times especially since Naz doesn't play big either?

In picking between Collins and Randle at what point does it make sense to cut and try something else or on the other hand see it through? Could the Wolves acquiring Collins take another 40+ games to figure out how that works if it ever does? What if there is even a 15% chance Randle can still work to some extent on this roster for rest of his current contract? I don't see Collins as a guy that really fits well just maybe less bad of a fit but also doesn't do as much either. Ultimately the idea is that Naz is the starter at some point anyways. In theory a couple years from now younger guys are providing those backup/rotation minutes. If we were moving Randle for someone with sort of the PF/C type game like Bobby Portis that woukd be more interesting than Collins although Collins is likely a plenty useful player. We will find put soon enough.

[60WinTim]

In terms of 3 point shooting he is the opposite of Randle. He is hitting over 54% of his corner 3's this year which would easily be a career high.

You made a good point about creating offense though. That's not Collins. His 2.5 apg is easily a career high (and 2x as some seasons) but he's also averaging a career high of 2.6 TOs.

He's a finisher who doesn't need the ball in his hands. But he won't/can't create for anyone else.

And that leaves A LOT on Edwards' plate. Conley can't do it anymore. Dillingham isn't ready. That's not NAW's game. And Divicenzo is probably done for the season.

The Wolves sort of need Randle's playmaking juice right now even though he takes other things off the table. It's just looking like a misguided trade... or simply a decent trade that just didn't work out because of a bad fit.

People focus a lot on Randle but if D'Vincenzo stays healthy and keeps playing like he was the last chunk of games that trade starts looking like it makes sense especially with Conley falling off to some extent even though it seems like he has been coming around to being at least a reasonably valuable rotation player.

In the discussion about the trade after it happened Q brought up the idea of Randle maybe sacrificing his scoring and doing more other things. To some extent if Randle can do that it might actually make his value go up (not just to the Wolves but to other teams or maybe more teams see value in having him on the roster) although some of his numbers may go down.

I did read something I think it was on Twitter that Collins has made some progress as a passer and supposedly has simply played better this year. I'm willing to buy some of that however the Jazz are terrible this year of course it also sounds they have likely sat Collins sat games when he could have played. Neither guy is a stalwart defensively but Collins still is skinny looking and Randle has less length but is built much stronger. Which guy is better playing as a C for a few minutes a game at times especially since Naz doesn't play big either?

In picking between Collins and Randle at what point does it make sense to cut and try something else or on the other hand see it through? Could the Wolves acquiring Collins take another 40+ games to figure out how that works if it ever does? What if there is even a 15% chance Randle can still work to some extent on this roster for rest of his current contract? I don't see Collins as a guy that really fits well just maybe less bad of a fit but also doesn't do as much either. Ultimately the idea is that Naz is the starter at some point anyways. In theory a couple years from now younger guys are providing those backup/rotation minutes. If we were moving Randle for someone with sort of the PF/C type game like Bobby Portis that woukd be more interesting than Collins although Collins is likely a plenty useful player. We will find put soon enough.

Or one of my personal favorites, Kelly Olynyk.

[Lipoli390]

There are two reasons to trade Randle: (1) cut payroll enough to ensure we can re-sign Naz (and maybe even NAW) while still getting under the 2nd apron and perhaps under the 1st apron as well; and (2) re-set for next season and beyond with Rudy and Naz as our starting C and PF respectively, which would be a better fit with Ant and Jaden than the Rudy/Randle tandem. There isn’t a realistic Randle trade that suddenly takes us from a .500 team to a title contender this season. I agree with Monster that Collins isn’t going to make that happen.

The point is to better position this team to eventually put a title contending team on the court during the Edwards era. That will require some longer-term strategic thinking and patience. We’re not talking about a rebuild, but we do need to re-tool with a focus on building around Ant, Jaden and Naz. Rudy and DDV fit that focus in my view. Randle doesn’t.

If we can get below the 1st apron we can use the full MLE to bring in a quality backup center or PF. Or we could use it for a quality vet PG while Dilly develops. Meanwhile, as Q noted, Jaden can slide over to the PF position behind Naz and we can backfill Jaden with TSJ, Minott, or DDV. Getting below the 1st apron will only be possible if we trade Randle mainly for expiring contracts by the February deadline.

[Sundog]

I don’t have any problem moving guys for the right deals. But given how tight the west is, I think a trade of any of the rotation guys could be essentially be giving up on this season. The Wolves are fighting to stay out of the play-in, and having to adjust to new rotation guys this late in the season could easily drop them out of playoff contention altogether. I have a hard time seeing Connelly going for that.

But it’s a catch 22… I agree with others this isn’t a contending team this year unless we see a significant improvement of how these players play together. I think the talent is there, but the team lacks heart and the players haven’t “jelled.” At 44 games in, it’s hard to see it happening.

[Q-is-here]

I don’t have any problem moving guys for the right deals. But given how tight the west is, I think a trade of any of the rotation guys could be essentially be giving up on this season. The Wolves are fighting to stay out of the play-in, and having to adjust to new rotation guys this late in the season could easily drop them out of playoff contention altogether. I have a hard time seeing Connelly going for that.

But it’s a catch 22… I agree with others this isn’t a contending team this year unless we see a significant improvement of how these players play together. I think the talent is there, but the team lacks heart and the players haven’t “jelled.” At 44 games in, it’s hard to see it happening.

.....on the other hand, it only takes a few things going right for us and wrong for others to vault into the top 6 in the West. While we probably aren't going to the WCF again, I think it's good for the franchise to continue competing in playoff series, even if we are bounced in the first or second round.

I think that type of late season surge can potentially happen with or without Randle, but perhaps I have too much confidence in the guys that would soak up his minutes and shots if he were to be traded.

[Lipoli390]

I don’t have any problem moving guys for the right deals. But given how tight the west is, I think a trade of any of the rotation guys could be essentially be giving up on this season. The Wolves are fighting to stay out of the play-in, and having to adjust to new rotation guys this late in the season could easily drop them out of playoff contention altogether. I have a hard time seeing Connelly going for that.

But it’s a catch 22… I agree with others this isn’t a contending team this year unless we see a significant improvement of how these players play together. I think the talent is there, but the team lacks heart and the players haven’t “jelled.” At 44 games in, it’s hard to see it happening.

.....on the other hand, it only takes a few things going right for us and wrong for others to vault into the top 6 in the West. While we probably aren't going to the WCF again, I think it's good for the franchise to continue competing in playoff series, even if we are bounced in the first or second round.

I think that type of late season surge can potentially happen with or without Randle, but perhaps I have too much confidence in the guys that would soak up his minutes and shots if he were to be traded.

That sort of late season surge seems unlikely to me but more likely with Randle than without him. Since the point of trading Randle is salary savings, I don’t see us getting a player in return who moves the needle for us. While we might get some addition by subtraction, I don’t think it would be enough to make up for losing Randle’s nearly 20 points and 8 rebounds per game. I don’t think any of our young guys are ready to step in and fill the gap. TSJ is the one guy who could, but he’s injured now and hasn’t had the chance to develop on the court this season so we can’t expect him to come back, ramp up and be a significant net positive this season. Maybe Minott would flourish with more minutes, but we can’t expect that to happen.

So if we want to maximize our chances of competing in the playoffs this season, it makes more sense to keep Randle. However, if we’re ready to focus on building for next season and beyond, the Wolves should make every effort to move Randle for payroll relief next season, although I continue to oppose giving up any draft assets to move him.

My guess is that the Wolves will keep Randle and won’t try hard if at all to trade him. It seems clear to me the Wolves organization is refusing to give up on this season. I also get the sense that they still harbor hope that this will work long term with Randle. I suspect they believe things will play out the way they did when we traded for Rudy - with one bad adjustment season followed by a trip to the Western Conference Finals the next. I’d call that delusional thinking. The initial down year with Rudy wasn’t mainly about players adjusting to one another; it was the direct result of losing KAT to injury for most of the season. Unfortunately, I suspect our front office remains stuck on the view that the Rudy-Randle pairing can work long term for what should be an Ant-centric team. Hope I’m wrong.

[60WinTim]

I do have a new favorite trade leveraging off of Butler. I like to think it makes sense for every team involved, but I won't go into those topics here. Some of the players involved are there to make salary matching work, but also fit positional needs for the teams involved. Some draft compensation may be needed, but I see no reason for the Wolves to pony up the Detroit pick.

Miami trades Butler; receives Randle and Schroder
Golden State trades Wiggins, Schroder, SloMo and Looney; receives Butler and Davion Mitchell
Minnesota trades Randle; receives SloMo, Olynyk and Boucher (a player must be waived: Garza or Ingles)
Toronto trades Olynyk and Boucher; receives Wiggins and Looney (via trade exception)

I really like what this does for the Wolves. Naz moves into the starting lineup. Olynyk backs up Rudy. And we get the SloMo chemistry back into the mix.

I see Miami and Golden State as the more desperate teams. Just like the Lakers were desperate with Westbrook, leading to the DLo trade.