Free agent signings

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thedoper
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Re: Free agent signings

Post by thedoper »

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
TheFuture wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
thedoper wrote:I really like what Dallas is doing. Good marginal moves to compliment Luka. That WCS signing was great in my mind. We could have afforded that over Juancho no? It really seems to be a style of play philosophy which is weird because I feel like WCS would have at least given us some lineup options to have KAT at the 4. There are going to be some depressing outings against teams with size this year.



Willie Cauley-Stein... meh. BUT... you're right about what Dallas is doing. They aren't still searching for Home Runs in the draft with all-or-nothing swings like they're Miguel Sano in a 7-run ballgame.

They have their superstar. And backup superstar. And they believe in them.

So they're finding players to complement them. Unlike...

------

The Wolves. Who had two max guys... and still felt compelled to swing for the fences for more talent. Only to trade one max guy for another (better) max guy. Only, they still don't think they're close to contending, so they're desperately searching for a 3rd max/superstar guy.

------

Ugh.


I will take whatever the hell we are doing over whatever the hell we did for KG. But it seems like a rinse and repeat. What do you do in this market though?


1. Get your star players. CHECK.

2. Build the best team around those players.

But the Wolves seem to be perpetually trying to get more and more and more in the stage 1 phase.



Haha. Back to phase one.
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TheFuture
Posts: 3000
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:00 am

Re: Free agent signings

Post by TheFuture »

thedoper wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
TheFuture wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
thedoper wrote:I really like what Dallas is doing. Good marginal moves to compliment Luka. That WCS signing was great in my mind. We could have afforded that over Juancho no? It really seems to be a style of play philosophy which is weird because I feel like WCS would have at least given us some lineup options to have KAT at the 4. There are going to be some depressing outings against teams with size this year.



Willie Cauley-Stein... meh. BUT... you're right about what Dallas is doing. They aren't still searching for Home Runs in the draft with all-or-nothing swings like they're Miguel Sano in a 7-run ballgame.

They have their superstar. And backup superstar. And they believe in them.

So they're finding players to complement them. Unlike...

------

The Wolves. Who had two max guys... and still felt compelled to swing for the fences for more talent. Only to trade one max guy for another (better) max guy. Only, they still don't think they're close to contending, so they're desperately searching for a 3rd max/superstar guy.

------

Ugh.


I will take whatever the hell we are doing over whatever the hell we did for KG. But it seems like a rinse and repeat. What do you do in this market though?


1. Get your star players. CHECK.

2. Build the best team around those players.

But the Wolves seem to be perpetually trying to get more and more and more in the stage 1 phase.



Haha. Back to phase one.


We are definitely headed back there with another science experiment, no disagreement there.

I am on record saying I would have preferred riding out the Rubio, Lavine, Wiggins, KAT experiment. I think it was mostly complimentary, and there was a chance there to add a PF, a bench, and keep the picks, before paying anybody. Blow it all the hell up if it doesn't work, like Presti. Not for an obvious 1st round exit for Butler. That did nothing for me as a fan, and honestly, Butler outed us as more inept of a franchise. I did not imagine that to be possible.

Yet, Glen struck.

Now he hired a new FO trying to prove themselves. If they fuck up, then the next group has to come try to clean up again whilst trying to prove themselves. Rinse, repeat.
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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: Free agent signings

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

TheFuture wrote:
thedoper wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
TheFuture wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
thedoper wrote:I really like what Dallas is doing. Good marginal moves to compliment Luka. That WCS signing was great in my mind. We could have afforded that over Juancho no? It really seems to be a style of play philosophy which is weird because I feel like WCS would have at least given us some lineup options to have KAT at the 4. There are going to be some depressing outings against teams with size this year.



Willie Cauley-Stein... meh. BUT... you're right about what Dallas is doing. They aren't still searching for Home Runs in the draft with all-or-nothing swings like they're Miguel Sano in a 7-run ballgame.

They have their superstar. And backup superstar. And they believe in them.

So they're finding players to complement them. Unlike...

------

The Wolves. Who had two max guys... and still felt compelled to swing for the fences for more talent. Only to trade one max guy for another (better) max guy. Only, they still don't think they're close to contending, so they're desperately searching for a 3rd max/superstar guy.

------

Ugh.


I will take whatever the hell we are doing over whatever the hell we did for KG. But it seems like a rinse and repeat. What do you do in this market though?


1. Get your star players. CHECK.

2. Build the best team around those players.

But the Wolves seem to be perpetually trying to get more and more and more in the stage 1 phase.



Haha. Back to phase one.


We are definitely headed back there with another science experiment, no disagreement there.

I am on record saying I would have preferred riding out the Rubio, Lavine, Wiggins, KAT experiment. I think it was mostly complimentary, and there was a chance there to add a PF, a bench, and keep the picks, before paying anybody. Blow it all the hell up if it doesn't work, like Presti. Not for an obvious 1st round exit for Butler. That did nothing for me as a fan, and honestly, Butler outed us as more inept of a franchise. I did not imagine that to be possible.

Yet, Glen struck.

Now he hired a new FO trying to prove themselves. If they fuck up, then the next group has to come try to clean up again whilst trying to prove themselves. Rinse, repeat.



To be fair, it wasn't an obvious 1st round exit... as it was happening for the first 54 games.

Butler got hurt... and the Wolves ended up with the #8 seed.

_____

But you hit on a point at the end. Every new regime comes in with the promise of something new -- for them. And it quickly becomes obvious that each one seems sorta clueless about what this organization has been through.

For example, I don't think a "Trust the Process" take works here. Sure, it works for the GM because he's buying time for himself. So why not do that if you can get away with it? But does it work for the fans who've already suffered through so many Trust the Process iterations?

I know it doesn't work for me. I want improvement. Any improvement that's sustainable and steady...
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TheFuture
Posts: 3000
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:00 am

Re: Free agent signings

Post by TheFuture »

AbeVigodaLive wrote:
TheFuture wrote:
thedoper wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
TheFuture wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
thedoper wrote:I really like what Dallas is doing. Good marginal moves to compliment Luka. That WCS signing was great in my mind. We could have afforded that over Juancho no? It really seems to be a style of play philosophy which is weird because I feel like WCS would have at least given us some lineup options to have KAT at the 4. There are going to be some depressing outings against teams with size this year.



Willie Cauley-Stein... meh. BUT... you're right about what Dallas is doing. They aren't still searching for Home Runs in the draft with all-or-nothing swings like they're Miguel Sano in a 7-run ballgame.

They have their superstar. And backup superstar. And they believe in them.

So they're finding players to complement them. Unlike...

------

The Wolves. Who had two max guys... and still felt compelled to swing for the fences for more talent. Only to trade one max guy for another (better) max guy. Only, they still don't think they're close to contending, so they're desperately searching for a 3rd max/superstar guy.

------

Ugh.


I will take whatever the hell we are doing over whatever the hell we did for KG. But it seems like a rinse and repeat. What do you do in this market though?


1. Get your star players. CHECK.

2. Build the best team around those players.

But the Wolves seem to be perpetually trying to get more and more and more in the stage 1 phase.



Haha. Back to phase one.


We are definitely headed back there with another science experiment, no disagreement there.

I am on record saying I would have preferred riding out the Rubio, Lavine, Wiggins, KAT experiment. I think it was mostly complimentary, and there was a chance there to add a PF, a bench, and keep the picks, before paying anybody. Blow it all the hell up if it doesn't work, like Presti. Not for an obvious 1st round exit for Butler. That did nothing for me as a fan, and honestly, Butler outed us as more inept of a franchise. I did not imagine that to be possible.

Yet, Glen struck.

Now he hired a new FO trying to prove themselves. If they fuck up, then the next group has to come try to clean up again whilst trying to prove themselves. Rinse, repeat.



To be fair, it wasn't an obvious 1st round exit... as it was happening for the first 54 games.

Butler got hurt... and the Wolves ended up with the #8 seed.

_____

But you hit on a point at the end. Every new regime comes in with the promise of something new -- for them. And it quickly becomes obvious that each one seems sorta clueless about what this organization has been through.

For example, I don't think a "Trust the Process" take works here. Sure, it works for the GM because he's buying time for himself. So why not do that if you can get away with it? But does it work for the fans who've already suffered through so many Trust the Process iterations?

I know it doesn't work for me. I want improvement. Any improvement that's sustainable and steady...


I mean, the GSW and LeBron were there. It was a stupid play for fan appreciation. The trade was stupid. The team was not ready; it was in it's infancy.

I guess I speak for myself, but I was much more enthusiastic about watching a new growth than a known playoff out.

The steady improvement and likability was watching Rubio cultivate LaVine, Wiggins, KAT, and whoever else a decent FO would have surrounded them with. That was a semblance of promise. Still could have torn the doors down for assets 2-4 years down the line if it failed. Instead we gutted that promise for Jimmy, spent our cap on Thib players, and saw it collapse again. With no harm coming for Thibs, only our organization and us fans. They come to Glen to step stones.

I want steady improvement too. That is what any company wants. But continuous overhaul is always fruitless.

R.I.P. Flip
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Free agent signings

Post by Camden [enjin:6601484] »

Flip wasn't building a winner here. That much I'm sure of.
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TheFuture
Posts: 3000
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:00 am

Re: Free agent signings

Post by TheFuture »

Camden0916 wrote:Flip wasn't building a winner here. That much I'm sure of.


That's fair, opinions always are.

I know you liked the Thibs moves, especially Jimmy.

Do you believe it was the right time to make that move, and hire Thibs in a full control position, given the core of our roster?
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Camden [enjin:6601484]
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Re: Free agent signings

Post by Camden [enjin:6601484] »

I definitely wanted Tom Thibodeau to be the head coach in Minnesota. I thought his defensive acumen and ability to coach teams to victory and through adversity would be awesome here. At times it was, but the defensive improvement here never transpired, for whatever reason. Also, his history in Chicago spoke for itself, in my opinion, and I thought the hire was a real turning point for the franchise because it was bold and anti country club, which is significant due to the history of losers that are associated with the Wolves. He was widely regarded as the best available coach at the time too.

I didn't think he would be given a dual role position, but at the time I didn't fully hate it because I'm not sure Thibs accepts the job here without it. His reputation and record was still good enough to control where he landed. In principle, I don't think the GM/HC should be the same person mainly because a system of checks and balances is best. Minnesota didn't have that. It's also natural for the head coach to be focused on the present whereas executives tend to be preparing for the future and thinking two steps ahead.

The biggest problem with Thibs is that he wasn't two people. He probably could have excelled in Minnesota as the head executive or the head coach, but not both at the same time.
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Monster
Posts: 24057
Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:00 am

Re: Free agent signings

Post by Monster »

TheFuture wrote:
Camden0916 wrote:Flip wasn't building a winner here. That much I'm sure of.


That's fair, opinions always are.

I know you liked the Thibs moves, especially Jimmy.

Do you believe it was the right time to make that move, and hire Thibs in a full control position, given the core of our roster?


It was thinking about all the players that were richer traded for Jimmy or were talked about as part of a trade. LaVine...nice player I like him a lot but what is he? Star? No probably not. Really good scorer and starter? The next Lou Williams? Markkanen is he actually even an average starter? Josh Richardson got traded for Seth Curry who the Mavs signed twice and the Wolves didn't. Right now where we sit...what exactly did we lose from that deal? Idk time will tell but right now...eh nothing really makes me feel so strongly like we missed out on some awesome guy and it looks to me like Jimmy Butler was an actually really damn good player. I'm just saying where we are at right now not endorsing anything in particular.
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khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]
Posts: 6414
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:00 am

Re: Free agent signings

Post by khans2k5 [enjin:6608728] »

TheFuture wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
TheFuture wrote:
thedoper wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
TheFuture wrote:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:
thedoper wrote:I really like what Dallas is doing. Good marginal moves to compliment Luka. That WCS signing was great in my mind. We could have afforded that over Juancho no? It really seems to be a style of play philosophy which is weird because I feel like WCS would have at least given us some lineup options to have KAT at the 4. There are going to be some depressing outings against teams with size this year.



Willie Cauley-Stein... meh. BUT... you're right about what Dallas is doing. They aren't still searching for Home Runs in the draft with all-or-nothing swings like they're Miguel Sano in a 7-run ballgame.

They have their superstar. And backup superstar. And they believe in them.

So they're finding players to complement them. Unlike...

------

The Wolves. Who had two max guys... and still felt compelled to swing for the fences for more talent. Only to trade one max guy for another (better) max guy. Only, they still don't think they're close to contending, so they're desperately searching for a 3rd max/superstar guy.

------

Ugh.


I will take whatever the hell we are doing over whatever the hell we did for KG. But it seems like a rinse and repeat. What do you do in this market though?


1. Get your star players. CHECK.

2. Build the best team around those players.

But the Wolves seem to be perpetually trying to get more and more and more in the stage 1 phase.



Haha. Back to phase one.


We are definitely headed back there with another science experiment, no disagreement there.

I am on record saying I would have preferred riding out the Rubio, Lavine, Wiggins, KAT experiment. I think it was mostly complimentary, and there was a chance there to add a PF, a bench, and keep the picks, before paying anybody. Blow it all the hell up if it doesn't work, like Presti. Not for an obvious 1st round exit for Butler. That did nothing for me as a fan, and honestly, Butler outed us as more inept of a franchise. I did not imagine that to be possible.

Yet, Glen struck.

Now he hired a new FO trying to prove themselves. If they fuck up, then the next group has to come try to clean up again whilst trying to prove themselves. Rinse, repeat.



To be fair, it wasn't an obvious 1st round exit... as it was happening for the first 54 games.

Butler got hurt... and the Wolves ended up with the #8 seed.

_____

But you hit on a point at the end. Every new regime comes in with the promise of something new -- for them. And it quickly becomes obvious that each one seems sorta clueless about what this organization has been through.

For example, I don't think a "Trust the Process" take works here. Sure, it works for the GM because he's buying time for himself. So why not do that if you can get away with it? But does it work for the fans who've already suffered through so many Trust the Process iterations?

I know it doesn't work for me. I want improvement. Any improvement that's sustainable and steady...


I mean, the GSW and LeBron were there. It was a stupid play for fan appreciation. The trade was stupid. The team was not ready; it was in it's infancy.

I guess I speak for myself, but I was much more enthusiastic about watching a new growth than a known playoff out.

The steady improvement and likability was watching Rubio cultivate LaVine, Wiggins, KAT, and whoever else a decent FO would have surrounded them with. That was a semblance of promise. Still could have torn the doors down for assets 2-4 years down the line if it failed. Instead we gutted that promise for Jimmy, spent our cap on Thib players, and saw it collapse again. With no harm coming for Thibs, only our organization and us fans. They come to Glen to step stones.

I want steady improvement too. That is what any company wants. But continuous overhaul is always fruitless.

R.I.P. Flip


Think about that team though and if Jimmy doesn't blow up which you just can't predict before you get him that he's just not gonna mesh with Towns. It's almost always better to just get the All-Star for your fodder rather than rely on that fodder to improve to the level of that All-Star.

So first round exit to Houston happens. You pay Jimmy, you come back the next year and you potentially get into the top 4 as we were originally on pace to do. That team maybe wins a playoff series against a Utah or OKC or Portland. Or maybe they don't and they end up at 21 where they draft Brandon Clarke like OKC before they trade him.

Then you know you are capped as a 4 seed during this season with Wiggins and you make the same trade for Russell at the deadline last year to get a better fit next to Jimmy.

Now you have Russell/Butler/Covington/Clarke/Towns going into the bubble. That's a team that could have made some noise. It's so hard for a team like the T Wolves to get All-Stars that you just have to do it when you can and then there is room for opportunities to keep improving down the line to get over the top.

Which team would you rather have? The one that I outlined or the one that we have? Sure mine is a long-shot but you can see the opportunities for improvement that are out there to surround your stars with quality players that fit around them that teams can fall into if they are patient for the right moves. If Towns had the right attitude he could have been on a juggernaut right now and Jimmy's window compared to his wouldn't mean shit because we'd be a really, really good team.

Edit: we probably don't end up with Covington so it's not as good, but there would have been plenty of guys to add in the 20's this year to Russell/Butler/Clarke/Towns to keep improving around that core.
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Lipoli390
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Re: Free agent signings

Post by Lipoli390 »

monsterpile wrote:
TheFuture wrote:
Camden0916 wrote:Flip wasn't building a winner here. That much I'm sure of.


That's fair, opinions always are.

I know you liked the Thibs moves, especially Jimmy.

Do you believe it was the right time to make that move, and hire Thibs in a full control position, given the core of our roster?


It was thinking about all the players that were richer traded for Jimmy or were talked about as part of a trade. LaVine...nice player I like him a lot but what is he? Star? No probably not. Really good scorer and starter? The next Lou Williams? Markkanen is he actually even an average starter? Josh Richardson got traded for Seth Curry who the Mavs signed twice and the Wolves didn't. Right now where we sit...what exactly did we lose from that deal? Idk time will tell but right now...eh nothing really makes me feel so strongly like we missed out on some awesome guy and it looks to me like Jimmy Butler was an actually really damn good player. I'm just saying where we are at right now not endorsing anything in particular.


I just thought Jimmy was the wrong guy under the circumstances. He didn't seem like the right fit as a 28-year old vet to become part of a core with two 21-year old potential all-stars -- wrong age and wrong temperament. And Wiggins was still a question mark at the time. Finding out after the fact that the Wolves apparently could have traded Wiggins straight up for Butler (maybe with a pick swap), that was the deal to make given Thibs' determination to get Butler. Wiggins still had positive net trade value back then. Marrkenen would have helped, but how about a front office smart enough to trade down and end up with Donovan Mitchell? That seems like it would have been a logical move for a defensive-minded guy like Thibodeau. So there were definitely alternatives at the time that would have made more sense in my view than doing the Butler deal.

But trading for Butler wasn't Thibs' biggest mistake. In fact, I wasn't angry about the deal for Butler at the time even though it's not a deal I would have made. Thibodeau's franchise-crushing mistakes were his draft decisions to take Dunn over Murray or Hield and Patton over Collins or Anunoby. Many of us don't have to rely on hindsight to know that.

Thibodeau and Rosas are very different people with very different styles. I have no doubt that Thibodeau is the better basketball mind of the two. But Thibodeau was a poor choice for the PBO position. As I posted at the time, he hadn't even worked in an NBA front office, much less been the head of one. Glen Taylor compounded the problem by giving Thibodeau the dual role, which took away the checks and balances and organization needs. Having said all that, it comes down to judgment. Thibodeau clearly had poor judgment with player personnel, especially the draft. So far, Gersson's judgment seems questionable, although it's still too early to assess. Culver could turn out to be a very good player, maybe even an all-star. And Edwards could end up being a superstar based on his physical talents and skills.
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