Minnesota Sports Forum

TeamRicky wrote:Thibs playing the starters too many minutes has several negative consequences: (1) tired starters don't have the energy to play consistently hard on defense (I agree with LST on this); (2) it sends the wrong message to the young players when they don't play hard on defense, yet keep getting lots of minutes. Most players would prefer to put up good offensive stats and since there is no consequence to focusing more on offense than defense, Thibs talk of playing hard on defense falls on deaf ears. I'd really like to see Thibs bench players and cut back their minutes when they have glaring defensive lapses. (3) the bench players who don't get minutes get disengaged from the game; and (4) it might hurt our ability to attract free agents when they see guys like Cole Aldrich and Jordan Hill rot on our bench.

With how hard you guys went at Thibs this season I can't even imagine what it would be like if he did that. My guess would be that you'd attack him for playing his horrendous bench and openly wondering why his coaching hasn't rubbed off on career scrubs. There's a reason 2 out of the 3 players signed cheap one year deals here, they weren't sought after.

This novelty some of you here have of playing your bench so many minutes is wonderful in theory but they're a garbage unit. You're not teaching Towns and Wiggins anything by replacing them with shitty bench players and watching them get killed from the bench while their combined 70+ points go for naught again. Their defense isn't going to suddenly improve watching players that should barely be on the end of the bench let alone playing stink up the court.

Q12543 wrote:

BloopOracle wrote:I personally think they did get his message loud and clear during the season, those two were both putting up monster stat lines WITH at least average defense during our midseason month+ stretch where we were playing some of the best team defense in the NBA. We were super thin on supporting talent and chasing streaking teams during that stretch and Belly went down and it all fell apart. Towns and Wiggins especially were exhausted and finally let up. Next year with the system in place and talent around them to help everything should work and we end up with a great season.

Thibs did not have to play those guys as many minutes as he did. It's funny how Aldrich, Rush, and Jordan Hill were just fine as supporting cast players the year before this one, but then suddenly Aldrich and Hill especially simply weren't good enough for Thibs. I mean Hill averaged 21 MPG on a 45 win team last season and now he's not good enough to get minutes on a 30-win team?

Hill played 47 total minutes this season.

Did any other player in the league who remained healthy play fewer minutes?

Jordan Hill played a total a 9 minutes in 5 out of the last 6 games for the Pacers in the regular season, and then logged heavy minutes in a pointless game to end the season. Jordan Hill then played a total of 15 minutes throughout a 7 game playoff series. Let's stop pretending like Jordan Hill was anything more than a stopgap for the Pacers while they developed their young bigs, I mean seriously.

BloopOracle wrote:Jordan Hill played a total a 9 minutes in 5 out of the last 6 games for the Pacers in the regular season, and then logged heavy minutes in a pointless game to end the season. Jordan Hill then played a total of 15 minutes throughout a 7 game playoff series. Let's stop pretending like Jordan Hill was anything more than a stopgap for the Pacers while they developed their young bigs, I mean seriously.

So knowing that, what was Thibs thinking paying him $4 mil? Vet help?

WildWolf2813 wrote:

BloopOracle wrote:Jordan Hill played a total a 9 minutes in 5 out of the last 6 games for the Pacers in the regular season, and then logged heavy minutes in a pointless game to end the season. Jordan Hill then played a total of 15 minutes throughout a 7 game playoff series. Let's stop pretending like Jordan Hill was anything more than a stopgap for the Pacers while they developed their young bigs, I mean seriously.

So knowing that, what was Thibs thinking paying him $4 mil? Vet help?

Hill has played over 400 games and put up some decent stats doing and has been on playoff teams 3 seasons.

Why didn't he play?

1. Thibs went with the immersion philosophy pretty much the entire season.

2. It seemed Thibs played guys he saw as pieces for the future or guys he wanted to take a look at. Payne missed buck of games and he still played more than Hill

3. I think Thibs miscalculated a bit on what the team would need from bench bigs. A bunch of us here though the Wolves needed some beef and rebounding and the Wolves did that with some solid but unspectacular players in Aldrich and Hill. Both guys have some beef (although Hill looked leaner) and were pretty good rebounders. Remember Towns was playing on the perimeter early in the season it seemed very clear he thought Towns was going to be able to play a lot on the perimeter on both ends of the court. It's possible this wasn't Thibs design it was what Towns wanted to do but I tend to think Thibs was looking at Towns as more of a PF. As the season went on it seemed more clear Towns on the perimeter wasn't the best idea he needed to spend more time nearer the basket and started playing that way more on both ends. So instead of being able to play Towns as a mobile big a lot...he was basically playing a lot of center which is what Dieng is and Aldrich. Hill was behind all 3 guys. Belly was the mobile PF and even Payne was more of that when he played. They really could have used a more mobile vet PF instead of Hill. Oops.

4. The bigs in front of Hill stayed healthy. Dieng Towns and even Aldrich were healthy. Payne was out for a while and of course Belly but Hill wasn't going to get those minutes anyway as I explained in point 3. If Dieng or Towns had gotten hurt for 10-15 games Hill probably would have gotten some run as he has more scoring ability over Aldrich. Instead Dieng and Towns somewhat amazingly played all 82 games and between them played nearly 70 of the available 96 minutes available to the PF/C spots. There just wasn't many minutes left for anyone to play. If there would have been more of a need he might have been a decent option to help out for a while. That never materialized which...is a good thing.

Ok too much written about Jordon Hill but yeah he didn't help the team and he didn't get opportunities. I'd be surprised if he came back next year. I consider his roster stop to be open to be filled by someone else. Of the guys on the roster at the end of the season I would be most surprised if he was back. That doesn't mean he sucks it's just that he doesn't fit...kinda like what happened with him down the stretch with Indiana last year where it looks like based on the playoff minutes they went small a lot.

monsterpile wrote:

WildWolf2813 wrote:

BloopOracle wrote:Jordan Hill played a total a 9 minutes in 5 out of the last 6 games for the Pacers in the regular season, and then logged heavy minutes in a pointless game to end the season. Jordan Hill then played a total of 15 minutes throughout a 7 game playoff series. Let's stop pretending like Jordan Hill was anything more than a stopgap for the Pacers while they developed their young bigs, I mean seriously.

So knowing that, what was Thibs thinking paying him $4 mil? Vet help?

Hill has played over 400 games and put up some decent stats doing and has been on playoff teams 3 seasons.

Why didn't he play?

1. Thibs went with the immersion philosophy pretty much the entire season.

2. It seemed Thibs played guys he saw as pieces for the future or guys he wanted to take a look at. Payne missed buck of games and he still played more than Hill

3. I think Thibs miscalculated a bit on what the team would need from bench bigs. A bunch of us here though the Wolves needed some beef and rebounding and the Wolves did that with some solid but unspectacular players in Aldrich and Hill. Both guys have some beef (although Hill looked leaner) and were pretty good rebounders. Remember Towns was playing on the perimeter early in the season it seemed very clear he thought Towns was going to be able to play a lot on the perimeter on both ends of the court. It's possible this wasn't Thibs design it was what Towns wanted to do but I tend to think Thibs was looking at Towns as more of a PF. As the season went on it seemed more clear Towns on the perimeter wasn't the best idea he needed to spend more time nearer the basket and started playing that way more on both ends. So instead of being able to play Towns as a mobile big a lot...he was basically playing a lot of center which is what Dieng is and Aldrich. Hill was behind all 3 guys. Belly was the mobile PF and even Payne was more of that when he played. They really could have used a more mobile vet PF instead of Hill. Oops.

4. The bigs in front of Hill stayed healthy. Dieng Towns and even Aldrich were healthy. Payne was out for a while and of course Belly but Hill wasn't going to get those minutes anyway as I explained in point 3. If Dieng or Towns had gotten hurt for 10-15 games Hill probably would have gotten some run as he has more scoring ability over Aldrich. Instead Dieng and Towns somewhat amazingly played all 82 games and between them played nearly 70 of the available 96 minutes available to the PF/C spots. There just wasn't many minutes left for anyone to play. If there would have been more of a need he might have been a decent option to help out for a while. That never materialized which...is a good thing.

Ok too much written about Jordon Hill but yeah he didn't help the team and he didn't get opportunities. I'd be surprised if he came back next year. I consider his roster stop to be open to be filled by someone else. Of the guys on the roster at the end of the season I would be most surprised if he was back. That doesn't mean he sucks it's just that he doesn't fit...kinda like what happened with him down the stretch with Indiana last year where it looks like based on the playoff minutes they went small a lot.

I also know that hill didn't show up to the optional training camp that every other player did so it put him in thibs doghouse early.

I do think hill should of played more but what we mine have won 2 more games if he got minutes

I think the issue here is less about Rush, Hill or Aldrich and more about the way Thibs managed Wiggins, LaVine, and KAT's minutes. The bottom line is we had seasoned vets on the bench that could have been used as a stick when those guys slacked off on defense with the dual benefit of giving them more rest.

"You wanna play? Defend and hustle....or may be you are too tired to defend and hustle? OK, sit down and then let me know when you are rested up enough to go defend and hustle".....something along those lines would in hindsight seem to have been a much better approach with those guys.

Q12543 wrote:I think the issue here is less about Rush, Hill or Aldrich and more about the way Thibs managed Wiggins, LaVine, and KAT's minutes. The bottom line is we had seasoned vets on the bench that could have been used as a stick when those guys slacked off on defense with the dual benefit of giving them more rest.

"You wanna play? Defend and hustle....or may be you are too tired to defend and hustle? OK, sit down and then let me know when you are rested up enough to go defend and hustle".....something along those lines would in hindsight seem to have been a much better approach with those guys.

Agreed. He used the same insanely tight rotations he used in Chicago, instead of using minutes more carefully to 1) encourage accountability (especially on the defensive end), 2) to keep legs fresh through the end of the season, and 3) to make sure the bench players are at least somewhat involved (Who knows? Aldrich might have been a decent defensive anchor, but we never really got the chance to find out).

SameOldNudityDrew wrote:

Q12543 wrote:I think the issue here is less about Rush, Hill or Aldrich and more about the way Thibs managed Wiggins, LaVine, and KAT's minutes. The bottom line is we had seasoned vets on the bench that could have been used as a stick when those guys slacked off on defense with the dual benefit of giving them more rest.

"You wanna play? Defend and hustle....or may be you are too tired to defend and hustle? OK, sit down and then let me know when you are rested up enough to go defend and hustle".....something along those lines would in hindsight seem to have been a much better approach with those guys.

Agreed. He used the same insanely tight rotations he used in Chicago, instead of using minutes more carefully to 1) encourage accountability (especially on the defensive end), 2) to keep legs fresh through the end of the season, and 3) to make sure the bench players are at least somewhat involved (Who knows? Aldrich might have been a decent defensive anchor, but we never really got the chance to find out).

Yeah Thibs sure did a terrible job with his defensive accountability in Chicago, they were porous and barely won any games in his tenure lol. Let's not also forget how hard his Bulls team battled in the playoffs despite starters going down, I guess he must have done something right with his bench with how players like DJ Augustine and Nate Robinson performed under him.

I never liked Jordan Hill. He's been a weed-smoking unmovtivated underachiever since he came to the NBA. D'Antoni couldn't stand him in New York. But honestly, as Q pointed out, Hill isn't the issue and nether is Rush or Aldrich. The issue is that Thibs should have given his bench players, including Hill or maybe Payne (doesn't matter) more minutes for two reasons: (1) to keep his starters more fresh and, therefore, better able to compete aggressively on both ends; and (2) as a teaching tool to further incentivize the young guys to focus more on defense.

As Q pointed out, Hill averaged 21 minutes per game on a 45-win team. How many minutes he had in an particular stretch of games is beside the point. It's like saying Phoenix isn't generally sunny by pointing to the days that it rained there. I hope Hill isn't back next season and I think it's essential that the front office improve our bench through free agency. But as Thibs said in his post-season press conference -- everyone has to ask "what can I do better." I trust that Thibs will ask himself that question. If he does, then part of his answer to self in relation to his coaching should be less minutes allotted to our starters and strategic benching of players to emphasize effort and defense. There are other adjustments I think Thibs needs to make as head coach to ensure significant team improvement next season, but I'll leave those for another thread.