Minnesota Sports Forum

Has this discussion turned in to Dunn not being any better than Jones now? It really feels like you don't won't a new pg here for fear that he might take the golden boys job. I mean come on, your arguing about a top 5 pick and Tyus Jones.

I've been away I know, but I'll absolutely be at the draft live again.

1. Bender
2. Hield
3. Sabonis
4. Murray
5. Dunn

As much as I want Bender, it financially makes more sense to draft a guard shooter and pursue someone like Horford this summer instead of drafting a rookie big and then overpaying Crabbe or Fournier.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:What are his big holes? His turnover rate I'm guessing. Surrounding him with better talent and coaching could cure that. His handle is pretty solid according to most experts.

I was thinking about this recently, without having done any research, it seems PGs drafted in the top half of the lottery seem to meet expectations at a higher rate than other positions.

Turnover rate is kind of a big deal with PGs and it's not because his team mates can't catch. He's put up similar turnover numbers every year in college, which suggests to me it's more a function of his decision making abilities. The other hole in his game is his shooting efficiency. A 54 TS% as an upperclassmen PG with his athleticism and size is pretty underwhelming. That would be fine if he were 19 years old and still growing into his body, but that's not really the case. I would have expected him to be a much more efficient scorer by now. The fact he hasn't cracked 70% from the line in 4 years of college is somewhat troubling.

All of that being said, the reason I like him is because of defense, steals, rebounding, and his ability in the open floor. I can see him playing off the ball some too given his size.

Completely agree with you here Q, but it's the reason I don't want him for us. Those traits are totally redundant of our current point guard. Not sure he is going to be an upgrade over Tyus who was able to come out after one year. So project Tyus 2 years from now and tell me you know for sure Dunn is going to be the better player.

I know Dunn is going to be the better player. There are some things Tyus just can't do at his physical profile that Dunn can and most of it is on the defensive end. At the end of the day we are talking the best PG prospect in one draft going top 5 versus a guy who saw multiple PG's drafted before him for a reason. I think Tyus is made to be a solid backup PG. I think Dunn has star potential. Creating offense off the dribble is still king in this league and that's what Dunn does. He adds to that a great defensive profile and really his only weakness is his shooting which we have the worst shooting PG of all time so we can only go up there, but if he figures that out he's going to pass Ricky as the starter or at least should. Dunn has some turnover issues, but it's not like he has a horrible assist : turnover ratio. He was still over 2:1 on a team with 1 other offensive option handling most of the load with him. Decision making is correctable. He has his flaws, but I also see the tools for a very good player especially under Thibs. I wouldn't let Tyus be a reason to not take Dunn if he's there.

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:What are his big holes? His turnover rate I'm guessing. Surrounding him with better talent and coaching could cure that. His handle is pretty solid according to most experts.

I was thinking about this recently, without having done any research, it seems PGs drafted in the top half of the lottery seem to meet expectations at a higher rate than other positions.

Turnover rate is kind of a big deal with PGs and it's not because his team mates can't catch. He's put up similar turnover numbers every year in college, which suggests to me it's more a function of his decision making abilities. The other hole in his game is his shooting efficiency. A 54 TS% as an upperclassmen PG with his athleticism and size is pretty underwhelming. That would be fine if he were 19 years old and still growing into his body, but that's not really the case. I would have expected him to be a much more efficient scorer by now. The fact he hasn't cracked 70% from the line in 4 years of college is somewhat troubling.

All of that being said, the reason I like him is because of defense, steals, rebounding, and his ability in the open floor. I can see him playing off the ball some too given his size.

Completely agree with you here Q, but it's the reason I don't want him for us. Those traits are totally redundant of our current point guard. Not sure he is going to be an upgrade over Tyus who was able to come out after one year. So project Tyus 2 years from now and tell me you know for sure Dunn is going to be the better player.

I know Dunn is going to be the better player. There are some things Tyus just can't do at his physical profile that Dunn can and most of it is on the defensive end. At the end of the day we are talking the best PG prospect in one draft going top 5 versus a guy who saw multiple PG's drafted before him for a reason. I think Tyus is made to be a solid backup PG. I think Dunn has star potential. Creating offense off the dribble is still king in this league and that's what Dunn does. He adds to that a great defensive profile and really his only weakness is his shooting which we have the worst shooting PG of all time so we can only go up there, but if he figures that out he's going to pass Ricky as the starter or at least should. Dunn has some turnover issues, but it's not like he has a horrible assist : turnover ratio. He was still over 2:1 on a team with 1 other offensive option handling most of the load with him. Decision making is correctable. He has his flaws, but I also see the tools for a very good player especially under Thibs. I wouldn't let Tyus be a reason to not take Dunn if he's there.

I'm not going to tell you that Tyus will be the better pro. He could be, but that's not my point. My point is while Tyus was leading his team to a national championship as college freshman, Dunn had a hard time getting on the court. Tyus is 19 years old and Dunn is a grown man. I'd like to see Tyus two years from now which is the comparison you would have to make with what Dunn is now.

I don't see how two years is going to make Tyus 3 inches taller, way longer and overall faster. That's the problem with Tyus. He is limited in what he can become with 2 more years of development. Also I think it's pretty poor to compare team success when Tyus had two teammates go in the top 10 and Dunn may not have another teammate go in the first round. There is a very clear talent difference between that Duke team and this year's Providence team. I don't think Providence does any better with Tyus over Dunn and they are probably worse off because Tyus isn't a game in game out number 1 option like Dunn was for them. Your critique of Dunn not staying on the floor is fair, but that's the same critique as the turnover issue. Both are because of decision making which is correctable. You can coach a guy up on decision making and help him improve in that area. You can't coach up athleticism and Dunn isn't the worst decision maker in the world. He just tries to do too much at times. 2 years of development still won't get Tyus on Dunn's level. I like Tyus, but he's just not going to be on Dunn's level which is fine because 1 is a top 5 pick and the other a later first round pick. I would fully expect the top 5 pick to be the better player.

You don't like taking Dunn because we have Ricky. I don't see how that's any different than taking Hield or Murray when we have Lavine. Lavine is a really good spot up shooter who can do more offensively than both Hield and Murray. The difference is Dunn can play next to Ricky and Buddy and Murray can't play next to Zach because there wouldn't be a primary ball handler on the court. A Ricky/Dunn combo could at least defend really well and have two guys that can create offense off the dribble.

PorkChop wrote:Has this discussion turned in to Dunn not being any better than Jones now? It really feels like you don't won't a new pg here for fear that he might take the golden boys job. I mean come on, your arguing about a top 5 pick and Tyus Jones.

I would love for Dunn to take Rubio's job because that means we got one hell of a point guard. But who knows how good Dunn is going to be, there have been plenty of pg selected high that became nothing just look at our own Johnny Flynn (kinda scary how similar Dunn and Flynn scouting report is besides height). Now comparing Jones to Dunn is interesting I would say that Dunn has the potential to be better and I think everyone would agree but Jones is 2 years younger than Dunn. Jones would of been a sophomore at duke. When Dunn was a sophomore he was hurt and was coming off a sub 40% shooting year and a sub 30% 3pt shooting year. So even though I think Dunn has more potential, who knows who will have a better career. I also think it is funny that you like Dunn but he has similar weakness as rubio

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:What are his big holes? His turnover rate I'm guessing. Surrounding him with better talent and coaching could cure that. His handle is pretty solid according to most experts.

I was thinking about this recently, without having done any research, it seems PGs drafted in the top half of the lottery seem to meet expectations at a higher rate than other positions.

Turnover rate is kind of a big deal with PGs and it's not because his team mates can't catch. He's put up similar turnover numbers every year in college, which suggests to me it's more a function of his decision making abilities. The other hole in his game is his shooting efficiency. A 54 TS% as an upperclassmen PG with his athleticism and size is pretty underwhelming. That would be fine if he were 19 years old and still growing into his body, but that's not really the case. I would have expected him to be a much more efficient scorer by now. The fact he hasn't cracked 70% from the line in 4 years of college is somewhat troubling.

All of that being said, the reason I like him is because of defense, steals, rebounding, and his ability in the open floor. I can see him playing off the ball some too given his size.

Completely agree with you here Q, but it's the reason I don't want him for us. Those traits are totally redundant of our current point guard. Not sure he is going to be an upgrade over Tyus who was able to come out after one year. So project Tyus 2 years from now and tell me you know for sure Dunn is going to be the better player.

I know Dunn is going to be the better player. There are some things Tyus just can't do at his physical profile that Dunn can and most of it is on the defensive end. At the end of the day we are talking the best PG prospect in one draft going top 5 versus a guy who saw multiple PG's drafted before him for a reason. I think Tyus is made to be a solid backup PG. I think Dunn has star potential. Creating offense off the dribble is still king in this league and that's what Dunn does. He adds to that a great defensive profile and really his only weakness is his shooting which we have the worst shooting PG of all time so we can only go up there, but if he figures that out he's going to pass Ricky as the starter or at least should. Dunn has some turnover issues, but it's not like he has a horrible assist : turnover ratio. He was still over 2:1 on a team with 1 other offensive option handling most of the load with him. Decision making is correctable. He has his flaws, but I also see the tools for a very good player especially under Thibs. I wouldn't let Tyus be a reason to not take Dunn if he's there.

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:What are his big holes? His turnover rate I'm guessing. Surrounding him with better talent and coaching could cure that. His handle is pretty solid according to most experts.

I was thinking about this recently, without having done any research, it seems PGs drafted in the top half of the lottery seem to meet expectations at a higher rate than other positions.

Turnover rate is kind of a big deal with PGs and it's not because his team mates can't catch. He's put up similar turnover numbers every year in college, which suggests to me it's more a function of his decision making abilities. The other hole in his game is his shooting efficiency. A 54 TS% as an upperclassmen PG with his athleticism and size is pretty underwhelming. That would be fine if he were 19 years old and still growing into his body, but that's not really the case. I would have expected him to be a much more efficient scorer by now. The fact he hasn't cracked 70% from the line in 4 years of college is somewhat troubling.

All of that being said, the reason I like him is because of defense, steals, rebounding, and his ability in the open floor. I can see him playing off the ball some too given his size.

Completely agree with you here Q, but it's the reason I don't want him for us. Those traits are totally redundant of our current point guard. Not sure he is going to be an upgrade over Tyus who was able to come out after one year. So project Tyus 2 years from now and tell me you know for sure Dunn is going to be the better player.

I know Dunn is going to be the better player. There are some things Tyus just can't do at his physical profile that Dunn can and most of it is on the defensive end. At the end of the day we are talking the best PG prospect in one draft going top 5 versus a guy who saw multiple PG's drafted before him for a reason. I think Tyus is made to be a solid backup PG. I think Dunn has star potential. Creating offense off the dribble is still king in this league and that's what Dunn does. He adds to that a great defensive profile and really his only weakness is his shooting which we have the worst shooting PG of all time so we can only go up there, but if he figures that out he's going to pass Ricky as the starter or at least should. Dunn has some turnover issues, but it's not like he has a horrible assist : turnover ratio. He was still over 2:1 on a team with 1 other offensive option handling most of the load with him. Decision making is correctable. He has his flaws, but I also see the tools for a very good player especially under Thibs. I wouldn't let Tyus be a reason to not take Dunn if he's there.

I'm not going to tell you that Tyus will be the better pro. He could be, but that's not my point. My point is while Tyus was leading his team to a national championship as college freshman, Dunn had a hard time getting on the court. Tyus is 19 years old and Dunn is a grown man. I'd like to see Tyus two years from now which is the comparison you would have to make with what Dunn is now.

I don't see how two years is going to make Tyus 3 inches taller, way longer and overall faster. That's the problem with Tyus. He is limited in what he can become with 2 more years of development. Also I think it's pretty poor to compare team success when Tyus had two teammates go in the top 10 and Dunn may not have another teammate go in the first round. There is a very clear talent difference between that Duke team and this year's Providence team. I don't think Providence does any better with Tyus over Dunn and they are probably worse off because Tyus isn't a game in game out number 1 option like Dunn was for them. Your critique of Dunn not staying on the floor is fair, but that's the same critique as the turnover issue. Both are because of decision making which is correctable. You can coach a guy up on decision making and help him improve in that area. You can't coach up athleticism and Dunn isn't the worst decision maker in the world. He just tries to do too much at times. 2 years of development still won't get Tyus on Dunn's level. I like Tyus, but he's just not going to be on Dunn's level which is fine because 1 is a top 5 pick and the other a later first round pick. I would fully expect the top 5 pick to be the better player.

You don't like taking Dunn because we have Ricky. I don't see how that's any different than taking Hield or Murray when we have Lavine. Lavine is a really good spot up shooter who can do more offensively than both Hield and Murray. The difference is Dunn can play next to Ricky and Buddy and Murray can't play next to Zach because there wouldn't be a primary ball handler on the court. A Ricky/Dunn combo could at least defend really well and have two guys that can create offense off the dribble.

If we want to have 3 below average shooters on the floor sure Dunn and Ricky can play together.

The comparison of Ricky/Curry and Dunn/Hield is an interesting take. I have a couple thoughts.

Let's not forget the prospect Ricky was coming into that draft. He was a teenager that had some elite abilities and room to grow.

That was an insane draft for PGs. Put Dunn in that draft and I'm not sure where he goes. Brandon Jennings went 10.

To me Dunn and Rubio have opposite shooting problems. Rubio always has been good at set shooting. FTs catch and shoot 3's have been solid throughout his career. Dunn on the other hand likely shots better with a rhythm off the bounce getting up in the air etc. set shots like FTs? Not so much. Both guys have some injury history you can point to that make you have some optimism about them shooting better with Dunn having the clear advantage.

Curry was being compared to Nash which was REALLY high compliment at the time. The question about Curry was what position could he really play? Could he really play PG? If He couldn't play PG how was he going to hold up as a SG? Was he really a star in the making?

Hield doesn't have to worry about position flexibility. He can just play SG and has plenty of physical ability there. He has SG length NBA body and enough athletic ability to play that spot. Some of the hype is him being compared to Curry who now has shockingly suprassed his comp of Nash. Hield getting anywhere close to Curry is pretty unlikely but I do think Hield and Curry comparison is worth making. Also worth considering is like Curry, Buddy did what he did in a legit conference.

The bottom line here is get the best player and pick a good player. The most interesting thing of looking back to that draft is...let's remember that Kahn traded 1 young vet in Foye and an older vet in Mike Miller for #5 which may be a cautionary tale for this franchise in looking for more immediate help instead of just staying tight and taking a young talented player.

Mentioning Foye - I would predict Dunn to have a similar career to Foye, but with better defense.

Great article compare bigs. It really doesn't help me from not having a man crush on Sabonis.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2637331-2016-nba-draft-prospects-breaking-down-nba-future-of-kentuckys-skal-labissiere

kekgeek1 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:What are his big holes? His turnover rate I'm guessing. Surrounding him with better talent and coaching could cure that. His handle is pretty solid according to most experts.

I was thinking about this recently, without having done any research, it seems PGs drafted in the top half of the lottery seem to meet expectations at a higher rate than other positions.

Turnover rate is kind of a big deal with PGs and it's not because his team mates can't catch. He's put up similar turnover numbers every year in college, which suggests to me it's more a function of his decision making abilities. The other hole in his game is his shooting efficiency. A 54 TS% as an upperclassmen PG with his athleticism and size is pretty underwhelming. That would be fine if he were 19 years old and still growing into his body, but that's not really the case. I would have expected him to be a much more efficient scorer by now. The fact he hasn't cracked 70% from the line in 4 years of college is somewhat troubling.

All of that being said, the reason I like him is because of defense, steals, rebounding, and his ability in the open floor. I can see him playing off the ball some too given his size.

Completely agree with you here Q, but it's the reason I don't want him for us. Those traits are totally redundant of our current point guard. Not sure he is going to be an upgrade over Tyus who was able to come out after one year. So project Tyus 2 years from now and tell me you know for sure Dunn is going to be the better player.

I know Dunn is going to be the better player. There are some things Tyus just can't do at his physical profile that Dunn can and most of it is on the defensive end. At the end of the day we are talking the best PG prospect in one draft going top 5 versus a guy who saw multiple PG's drafted before him for a reason. I think Tyus is made to be a solid backup PG. I think Dunn has star potential. Creating offense off the dribble is still king in this league and that's what Dunn does. He adds to that a great defensive profile and really his only weakness is his shooting which we have the worst shooting PG of all time so we can only go up there, but if he figures that out he's going to pass Ricky as the starter or at least should. Dunn has some turnover issues, but it's not like he has a horrible assist : turnover ratio. He was still over 2:1 on a team with 1 other offensive option handling most of the load with him. Decision making is correctable. He has his flaws, but I also see the tools for a very good player especially under Thibs. I wouldn't let Tyus be a reason to not take Dunn if he's there.

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:What are his big holes? His turnover rate I'm guessing. Surrounding him with better talent and coaching could cure that. His handle is pretty solid according to most experts.

I was thinking about this recently, without having done any research, it seems PGs drafted in the top half of the lottery seem to meet expectations at a higher rate than other positions.

Turnover rate is kind of a big deal with PGs and it's not because his team mates can't catch. He's put up similar turnover numbers every year in college, which suggests to me it's more a function of his decision making abilities. The other hole in his game is his shooting efficiency. A 54 TS% as an upperclassmen PG with his athleticism and size is pretty underwhelming. That would be fine if he were 19 years old and still growing into his body, but that's not really the case. I would have expected him to be a much more efficient scorer by now. The fact he hasn't cracked 70% from the line in 4 years of college is somewhat troubling.

All of that being said, the reason I like him is because of defense, steals, rebounding, and his ability in the open floor. I can see him playing off the ball some too given his size.

Completely agree with you here Q, but it's the reason I don't want him for us. Those traits are totally redundant of our current point guard. Not sure he is going to be an upgrade over Tyus who was able to come out after one year. So project Tyus 2 years from now and tell me you know for sure Dunn is going to be the better player.

I know Dunn is going to be the better player. There are some things Tyus just can't do at his physical profile that Dunn can and most of it is on the defensive end. At the end of the day we are talking the best PG prospect in one draft going top 5 versus a guy who saw multiple PG's drafted before him for a reason. I think Tyus is made to be a solid backup PG. I think Dunn has star potential. Creating offense off the dribble is still king in this league and that's what Dunn does. He adds to that a great defensive profile and really his only weakness is his shooting which we have the worst shooting PG of all time so we can only go up there, but if he figures that out he's going to pass Ricky as the starter or at least should. Dunn has some turnover issues, but it's not like he has a horrible assist : turnover ratio. He was still over 2:1 on a team with 1 other offensive option handling most of the load with him. Decision making is correctable. He has his flaws, but I also see the tools for a very good player especially under Thibs. I wouldn't let Tyus be a reason to not take Dunn if he's there.

I'm not going to tell you that Tyus will be the better pro. He could be, but that's not my point. My point is while Tyus was leading his team to a national championship as college freshman, Dunn had a hard time getting on the court. Tyus is 19 years old and Dunn is a grown man. I'd like to see Tyus two years from now which is the comparison you would have to make with what Dunn is now.

I don't see how two years is going to make Tyus 3 inches taller, way longer and overall faster. That's the problem with Tyus. He is limited in what he can become with 2 more years of development. Also I think it's pretty poor to compare team success when Tyus had two teammates go in the top 10 and Dunn may not have another teammate go in the first round. There is a very clear talent difference between that Duke team and this year's Providence team. I don't think Providence does any better with Tyus over Dunn and they are probably worse off because Tyus isn't a game in game out number 1 option like Dunn was for them. Your critique of Dunn not staying on the floor is fair, but that's the same critique as the turnover issue. Both are because of decision making which is correctable. You can coach a guy up on decision making and help him improve in that area. You can't coach up athleticism and Dunn isn't the worst decision maker in the world. He just tries to do too much at times. 2 years of development still won't get Tyus on Dunn's level. I like Tyus, but he's just not going to be on Dunn's level which is fine because 1 is a top 5 pick and the other a later first round pick. I would fully expect the top 5 pick to be the better player.

You don't like taking Dunn because we have Ricky. I don't see how that's any different than taking Hield or Murray when we have Lavine. Lavine is a really good spot up shooter who can do more offensively than both Hield and Murray. The difference is Dunn can play next to Ricky and Buddy and Murray can't play next to Zach because there wouldn't be a primary ball handler on the court. A Ricky/Dunn combo could at least defend really well and have two guys that can create offense off the dribble.

If we want to have 3 below average shooters on the floor sure Dunn and Ricky can play together.

I'd rather have 3 below average shooters than no creators or people who can even run a decent PnR which is what you would have with a Lavine/Hield/Murray backcourt. You can work around shooting issues especially when Ricky is an ok spot up shooter and Dunn is better than people want to give him credit for. You can't work around having nobody on the court who can run an offense.

We have this one, possibly last shot to grab a young star to supplement our core. To me Dunn would be a waste of that opportunity.
- A 4 year college player who didn't distinguish himself until his junior year.
- Would play behind a point guard who is going to get 35 minutes
- Is a better athlete than basketball player
- Can't shoot free throws

If you want a guy who can REALLY help us for the next 10 years, take Hield. If you want to swing a bit higher and take a little more risk take Bender.