Minnesota Sports Forum

lipoli390 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:The one thing i agree with Thibs on is to not make a bad deal for the sake of making a deal. If we can't get decent value let Butler sit until we can. The problem is the window where we could have gotten great value passed back in June. With all the information that has come out since the end of the season, can anyone disagree with that?

To me it matters on what Jimmy said back then. If it was trade me now, thibs made a mistake. If it was I am leaning towards leaving or i'm leaving but there was no trade demands I really don't blame thibs.

You got to see it from thibs prospective if he trades Jimmy he will get fired because we wont make the playoffs and with Jimmy we were the 3 seed and the rockets on paper got worse and older. Stop thibs thinks winning can heal all and that is all Jimmy talks about it's winning. So I can see where thibs was coming from and would have had similar opinions

If a PBO won't take action regarding a player unless/until that player has told him unequivocally that he demands to be trade, that PBO has no business being in charge of a multi-million dollar operation, i.e, a NBA team's basketball operations department. We know Butler skipped the plane ride and his physical. We've heard highly credible reports that Jimmy, at a minimum, expressed his desire to play elsewhere and that he was not inclined to re-sign way back in the early summer. We all read reports in early May that Butler wasn't happy. We had media reports earlier this summer in which Jimmy expressed that he didn't like KAT or Wiggins. You don't pay a top executive millions a year to just respond to the obvious. You pay them to think, to anticipate, to understand and read the signs and then to take action on those cues. And in this instance, the cues and clues Thibodeau had thrust in his face weren't exactly subtle. Thibidoeau failed miserably as PBO over the past 5 months. He should be fired.

A good GM tries to patch the relationship, not bend to the player's will at the first sign of unhappiness which is what Thibs is doing. LA wouldn't be a Spur if Pop acted in the manner you suggest Thibs should have acted with Jimmy. Good GM's don't let the players run the team. Thibs is gonna get fired as a result of this trade either right after it's made or after this season is done and we are looking at a lottery pick. I would fully expect any GM in his spot to do the same thing. People need to stop universally blaming Thibs for a situation ass hole Jimmy created. Thibs is doing what every other respectable GM would do in this spot and not rush to trade away your best player. The longer the insubordination goes on actually has me believing we will get a solid return for Jimmy because we don't have a front office bending to the will of the weak player and owner and play right into everyone else's hands to end up with a poo poo platter.

khans2k5 wrote:

lipoli390 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:The one thing i agree with Thibs on is to not make a bad deal for the sake of making a deal. If we can't get decent value let Butler sit until we can. The problem is the window where we could have gotten great value passed back in June. With all the information that has come out since the end of the season, can anyone disagree with that?

To me it matters on what Jimmy said back then. If it was trade me now, thibs made a mistake. If it was I am leaning towards leaving or i'm leaving but there was no trade demands I really don't blame thibs.

You got to see it from thibs prospective if he trades Jimmy he will get fired because we wont make the playoffs and with Jimmy we were the 3 seed and the rockets on paper got worse and older. Stop thibs thinks winning can heal all and that is all Jimmy talks about it's winning. So I can see where thibs was coming from and would have had similar opinions

If a PBO won't take action regarding a player unless/until that player has told him unequivocally that he demands to be trade, that PBO has no business being in charge of a multi-million dollar operation, i.e, a NBA team's basketball operations department. We know Butler skipped the plane ride and his physical. We've heard highly credible reports that Jimmy, at a minimum, expressed his desire to play elsewhere and that he was not inclined to re-sign way back in the early summer. We all read reports in early May that Butler wasn't happy. We had media reports earlier this summer in which Jimmy expressed that he didn't like KAT or Wiggins. You don't pay a top executive millions a year to just respond to the obvious. You pay them to think, to anticipate, to understand and read the signs and then to take action on those cues. And in this instance, the cues and clues Thibodeau had thrust in his face weren't exactly subtle. Thibidoeau failed miserably as PBO over the past 5 months. He should be fired.

A good GM tries to patch the relationship, not bend to the player's will at the first sign of unhappiness which is what Thibs is doing. LA wouldn't be a Spur if Pop acted in the manner you suggest Thibs should have acted with Jimmy. Good GM's don't let the players run the team. Thibs is gonna get fired as a result of this trade either right after it's made or after this season is done and we are looking at a lottery pick. I would fully expect any GM in his spot to do the same thing. People need to stop universally blaming Thibs for a situation ass hole Jimmy created. Thibs is doing what every other respectable GM would do in this spot and not rush to trade away your best player. The longer the insubordination goes on actually has me believing we will get a solid return for Jimmy because we don't have a front office bending to the will of the weak player and owner and play right into everyone else's hands to end up with a poo poo platter.

Kahns --

Thibodeau obviously did nothing to "patch this relationship" or any other relationship. He had his head in the sand, assuming Butler would show up and play, that the team would win and that winning would convince Butler to respect his teammates and stay. Wow!

When I said Thibodeau needed to "take action" before getting a trade demand, it could have been action to fix these relationships or action to get a deal before Butler took the feelings he expressed to Thibs months ago to their logical conclusions - i.e., a trade demand. I believe it should have been the latter, but Thibodeau did neither. Any really good executive can tell the difference between a fixable and nonfixable relationship, especially when the executive is as close to the main protagonist as Thibodeau has been to Butler. If anyone should have known that Butler was an a-hole, it should have been Thibodeau.

I knew Butler was an a-hole by reputation, based on information in the public domain about his horrible lockerroom presence with the Bulls and the way he acted since gettting here. Based on that and all the reports months ago about problems surrounding Butler and other key players as well as the uncertainty over whether Butler would re-signing, I concluded he should be traded back in early June. So this isn't hindsight for me. But since we're all ultimately judged professionally on hindsight, we can now see that Thibodeau screwed up in a big way. Oh, and yes, Butler is an a-hole. I dislike him. I don't dislike Thibodeau. In fact, I feel a little sorry for him, getting betrayed by someone he considered close. Thibodeau was fiercely loyal to Butler, but we now see it was a one-way street. I think Thibodeau made a mistake trading for Butler in the first place. I think he made a terrible choice drafting Patton last summer even if we ignore Patton's foot issues. Now we see that Thibodeau screwed up royally by not trading Butler in June, following by what was at least an initial period of insubordination as he initially refused to entertain offers for Butler. So yes, Thibodeau should be fired.

Isn't it possible that Thibs has been both good and bad with this situation? If he was clearly and repeatedly told by Butler he wasn't going to re-sign summer 2019 then he screwed up by now feeling out potential trades. And if he is currently holding out on a decent offer, while being badly low-balled, then he's handling the here and now correctly. Really hard to know for sure from the outside.

Then again, I do think that if this whole Butler/Wiggins-Towns crap is true, I put a lot of that on Thibs for not managing his team better. Another reason he never should have been made PBO on top of coach.

TheGrey08 wrote:Isn't it possible that Thibs has been both good and bad with this situation? If he was clearly and repeatedly told by Butler he wasn't going to re-sign summer 2019 then he screwed up by now feeling out potential trades. And if he is currently holding out on a decent offer, while being badly low-balled, then he's handling the here and now correctly. Really hard to know for sure from the outside.

Then again, I do think that if this whole Butler/Wiggins-Towns crap is true, I put a lot of that on Thibs for not managing his team better. Another reason he never should have been made PBO on top of coach.

I agree with you completely. I like that he's playing hard-ball in negotiations right now. That's what he should do. But he also needs to be actively engaging other teams and reports seem to suggest he's not. My fear is that reports of Thibodeau's continuing disinterest in doing a deal might be true. However, for now, I'm assuming Thibodeau is sincerely pursuing a deal as directed by ownership and that he's properly driving a hard bargain. That's exactly what he should be doing.

lipoli390 wrote:

TheGrey08 wrote:Isn't it possible that Thibs has been both good and bad with this situation? If he was clearly and repeatedly told by Butler he wasn't going to re-sign summer 2019 then he screwed up by now feeling out potential trades. And if he is currently holding out on a decent offer, while being badly low-balled, then he's handling the here and now correctly. Really hard to know for sure from the outside.

Then again, I do think that if this whole Butler/Wiggins-Towns crap is true, I put a lot of that on Thibs for not managing his team better. Another reason he never should have been made PBO on top of coach.

I agree with you completely. I like that he's playing hard-ball in negotiations right now. That's what he should do. But he also needs to be actively engaging other teams and reports seem to suggest he's not. My fear is that reports of Thibodeau's continuing disinterest in doing a deal might be true. However, for now, I'm assuming Thibodeau is sincerely pursuing a deal as directed by ownership and that he's properly driving a hard bargain. That's exactly what he should be doing.

I sure hope so, but can't wait for this to be over so we know what we have going forward.

Good points in your previous post as well, the biggest thing here is that Thibs was supposed to have a good relationship with Butler so he SHOULD have known what was going on.

I've had my eyes on the Denver Nuggets from the start of this Jimmy Butler situation. They are the ideal trade partner, in my opinion. In a perfect world, Minnesota would deal Butler to the Eastern Conference, but their priority should be getting the best return possible, NOT focusing on the destination. Denver can offer several attractive packages and have ample wiggle room with their assets as well.

The Nuggets have two trade chips to focus on: PG/SG Jamal Murray and SG Gary Harris.

In all likelihood, getting both of them is unrealistic, however, there are scenarios where either could be the centerpiece of a deal sending Butler to Broncos country -- Butler is close friends with Demaryius Thomas for those that were unaware.

In order to pry Murray away, Butler would need to have some sort of handshake agreement -- think Kevin Love with Cleveland in 2014 -- that he's going to sign the full max with Denver. How unrealistic is that? I'm not sure, but I feel confident that wherever he goes, he's going to sign there for the big money. If that's pre-established, his trade value is increased significantly.

MIN: PG/SG Jamal Murray, PF Trey Lyles, C Mason Plumlee

DEN: SG/SF Jimmy Butler

A more realistic deal that requires nothing from Butler involves the 24-year old Harris.

MIN: SG Gary Harris, PF Trey Lyles, 2021 top-20 protected first-round pick

DEN: SG/SF Jimmy Butler

In my mind, this is relatively fair compensation for Butler considering his top-10 player in the NBA stature and the circumstances the Wolves find themselves in right now. I'd also be pretty excited about this deal. Harris is a recently-turned 24-years old and is arguably a perfect fit for Minnesota regardless of who else they add to the puzzle. He's an uber-efficient second or third fiddle offensively who can adequately handle the rock and facilitate, knock down three-point shots with volume, and defend either backcourt position at a high level. On top of it, he's fairly compensated at $16-20M annually over the next four seasons. He's also improved every single season in the NBA and is trending up. When you're trading a star player -- in any sport -- a young up-and-comer with production under his belt is what you should be looking for. Harris (and Murray) fits the bill.

Side note: In any trade with the Nuggets, I'd want Trey Lyles coming back. Not only do I think he's been underutilized so far in the NBA, but I think he'd play well off of Towns and I'd expect them to have some level of chemistry established being that they played together at Kentucky. He's not a make or break aspect of the trade, but he's just 22-years old and has shown more than enough for me to think he's at least a good rotation player that can fill a role -- skilled stretch-four.

Camden0916 wrote:I've had my eyes on the Denver Nuggets from the start of this Jimmy Butler situation. They are the ideal trade partner, in my opinion. In a perfect world, Minnesota would deal Butler to the Eastern Conference, but their priority should be getting the best return possible, NOT focusing on the destination. Denver can offer several attractive packages and have ample wiggle room with their assets as well.

The Nuggets have two trade chips to focus on: PG/SG Jamal Murray and SG Gary Harris.

In all likelihood, getting both of them is unrealistic, however, there are scenarios where either could be the centerpiece of a deal sending Butler to Broncos country -- Butler is close friends with Demaryius Thomas for those that were unaware.

In order to pry Murray away, Butler would need to have some sort of handshake agreement -- think Kevin Love with Cleveland in 2014 -- that he's going to sign the full max with Denver. How unrealistic is that? I'm not sure, but I feel confident that wherever he goes, he's going to sign there for the big money. If that's pre-established, his trade value is increased significantly.

MIN: PG/SG Jamal Murray, PF Trey Lyles, C Mason Plumlee

DEN: SG/SF Jimmy Butler

A more realistic deal that requires nothing from Butler involves the 24-year old Harris.

MIN: SG Gary Harris, PF Trey Lyles, 2021 top-20 protected first-round pick

DEN: SG/SF Jimmy Butler

In my mind, this is relatively fair compensation for Butler considering his top-10 player in the NBA stature and the circumstances the Wolves find themselves in right now. I'd also be pretty excited about this deal. Harris is a recently-turned 24-years old and is arguably a perfect fit for Minnesota regardless of who else they add to the puzzle. He's an uber-efficient second or third fiddle offensively who can adequately handle the rock and facilitate, knock down three-point shots with volume, and defend either backcourt position at a high level. On top of it, he's fairly compensated at $16-20M annually over the next four seasons. He's also improved every single season in the NBA and is trending up. When you're trading a star player -- in any sport -- a young up-and-comer with production under his belt is what you should be looking for. Harris (and Murray) fits the bill.

Side note: In any trade with the Nuggets, I'd want Trey Lyles coming back. Not only do I think he's been underutilized so far in the NBA, but I think he'd play well off of Towns and I'd expect them to have some level of chemistry established being that they played together at Kentucky. He's not a make or break aspect of the trade, but he's just 22-years old and has shown more than enough for me to think he's at least a good rotation player that can fill a role -- skilled stretch-four.

Lyle and wiggins have also known each other fir years. But i don't think we can afford tti have both plumlee and dieng eating our capspace. Thats alot of money tied into one position.

Like Cam, my inclination is to look at Denver as a trading partner since there are several pieces there I like. However, even though I have liked Gary Harris since college, the Wolves need to be wary of his injury history. He has averaged just over 60 games a year through his first 4 years, similar to Butler.

I don't see why an up-and-coming team like Denver with guys improving up and down that roster (including Harris and Murray) would trade any of them just as they're nearing a playoff berth for a very probable one-year rental of a guy like Butler who just sabotaged their main rival of a year ago with his selfishness.

longstrangetrip wrote:Like Cam, my inclination is to look at Denver as a trading partner since there are several pieces there I like. However, even though I have liked Gary Harris since college, the Wolves need to be wary of his injury history. He has averaged just over 60 games a year through his first 4 years, similar to Butler.

I love Harris, but like you I'm concerned about his injury history. Getting Murray would be a dream. I agree with Abe in thinking Denver won't give up either one for Butler.