West Conference playoff thread

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Lipoli390
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Re: West Conference playoff thread

Post by Lipoli390 »

WildWolf2813 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 5:06 pm
kekgeek wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:07 am I think these playoffs sort of show why the wolves didn’t just want to run it back last year. Dlo has been the worst rotation piece of these final 4 teams by far, Beasley out of the rotation, Vando a 10th man on a good team, Pat Bev regressed a lot this year offensively, bolmaro was nothing. Now it seems like the wolves picked the wrong guy to acquire but it’s being shown that the players they traded are not impactful players in the most meaningful games
I've been steadfast in believing last year's Wolves running it back woulda missed the playoffs. What I do think TC's obsession with getting a center was a reaction to Brandon Clarke owning Vando. If it wasn't Gobert it woulda been Capela or someone else.
Hard to know whether the Wolves would have made the playoffs if they would have come back with the same guys + Slo Mo. You’re probably right. Last season’s team with KAT finished 10 games over .500. Since KAT was the single most important player for the Wolves that season, it’s reasonable to believe KAT’s absence most of this season would have put the team in the lottery. However, Edwards and Jaden were significantly better this season than last and the addition of Slo Mo was a big positive. Given how well Kessler played as a rookie, I think it’s certainly possible the Wolves would have made the playoffs this season. Let’s keep in mind that while Vando and Beasley aren’t playing well in the playoffs, both of them (especially Vando) played well during the season.

The bigger point is that, had the Wolves missed the playoffs, they would have a lottery pick this year as well as all their future 1st-round picks along with lots of financial flexibility. All of that would have given the Wolves front office tremendous opportunity to maneuver. I agree with Kek that it seems the Wolves picked the wrong guy to acquire for all those assets. I’ll just add that in my view there was no right guy for all those assets unless we’re talking about Tyrese Haliburton, Jason Tatum, Luka Doncic or someone comparable. I’m more troubled by cashing out all those assets and the associated opportunity cost than I am by precisely who we traded away or even who we acquired. TC’s Gobert deal is not how you build a NBA contender if your franchise isn’t in Southern California or Miami. And even if it is in one of those locations, cashing out so many assets for one player typically doesn’t work.

Maybe a deal like TC’s trade for Rudy makes sense if your franchise is desperate. But your franchise isn’t close to desperate coming off a season in which the team finished 10 games over .500 with a 20 year old budding star and 21 year old budding #2. I was never opposed to trading any of the guys we dealt away other than Beverley and Kessler. I actually favored trading Beasley last summer. There were more strategic deals the Wolves could have made to improve the team without giving up nearly as much. There were also free agent possibilities.

Hopefully, TC is over his obsession. And I would hope TC has learned his lesson. We expect players to play to their strength. TC’s strength has always been identifying and picking quality young talent in the draft or as undrafted free agents. Unfortunately, he has a lot less to work with than he would if not for his blunder last summer. But he still has Ant and Jaden. Gobert still has trade value although nothing close to what the Wolves gave up to get him. And KAT has tremendous trade value although I’d be reluctant to move him.
Last edited by Lipoli390 on Mon May 22, 2023 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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FNG
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Re: West Conference playoff thread

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It's difficult to overstate just how bad DLo has been in this championship series. His defense has been a disaster, but unfortunately he's also struggling badly on offense. But never fear...tonight is DLo time! I expect him to have one of his occasional red-hot nights and put up 30 in a meaningless game (meaningless, because the Lakers will lose in Denver in Game 5, so it's only putting off the inevitable). Just watch!
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Carlos Danger
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Re: West Conference playoff thread

Post by Carlos Danger »

WildWolf2813 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 5:06 pm
kekgeek wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:07 am I think these playoffs sort of show why the wolves didn’t just want to run it back last year. Dlo has been the worst rotation piece of these final 4 teams by far, Beasley out of the rotation, Vando a 10th man on a good team, Pat Bev regressed a lot this year offensively, bolmaro was nothing. Now it seems like the wolves picked the wrong guy to acquire but it’s being shown that the players they traded are not impactful players in the most meaningful games
I've been steadfast in believing last year's Wolves running it back woulda missed the playoffs. What I do think TC's obsession with getting a center was a reaction to Brandon Clarke owning Vando. If it wasn't Gobert it woulda been Capela or someone else.
I think both of you guys make great observations regarding the guys we let go. We all tend to over value our own guys. None of those guys are bad players - they can certainly fill a role on most NBA teams. But all are very replaceable. Had we run it back instead of the Gobert trade, it's very likely we would have been about the same or worse (this year anyway).

TC took a shot. It was a HUGE over pay. And for that, he certainly deserves criticism. But I was and still am fine with him taking a shot to improve the roster. How many wasted years were lost running it back with KG year after year? It's ok to take a shot. It didn't work out. Let's see how TC responds in year 2.

And I'll write it again...the Kessler pick is a big part of what makes the trade look so bad. What are the odds of a draft pick turning into a useful player? Like 1 in 5? How are we all feeling about Wendell Moore Jr. who was literally taken 4 picks after Kessler?

The Jazz hit on that pick. All we can do it tip our hats and move on. But had they taken anyone other than Kessler, we'd all probably be less down on the trade up to this point. Kessler put up 2.1 VORP. The combined VORP of those taken after him is a negative (6.2). Literally every single player taken after him was zero or negative VORP other than one guy (Jaylin William) who was 0.1. Unbelievable.
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Carlos Danger
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Re: West Conference playoff thread

Post by Carlos Danger »

FNG wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 8:15 am It's difficult to overstate just how bad DLo has been in this championship series. His defense has been a disaster, but unfortunately he's also struggling badly on offense. But never fear...tonight is DLo time! I expect him to have one of his occasional red-hot nights and put up 30 in a meaningless game (meaningless, because the Lakers will lose in Denver in Game 5, so it's only putting off the inevitable). Just watch!
HA! I was think same thing LST. DLO is a slot machine - he's due to pay out. That's how he's been teasing GMs for several years...occasional pay outs. But over the long haul...you lose. I tend to agree with CoolBreeze in that the Lakers might just move on at this point since they may value other guys more than DLO for the money it would take to bring him back. We shall see...
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AbeVigodaLive
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Re: West Conference playoff thread

Post by AbeVigodaLive »

WildWolf2813 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 5:06 pm
kekgeek wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:07 am I think these playoffs sort of show why the wolves didn’t just want to run it back last year. Dlo has been the worst rotation piece of these final 4 teams by far, Beasley out of the rotation, Vando a 10th man on a good team, Pat Bev regressed a lot this year offensively, bolmaro was nothing. Now it seems like the wolves picked the wrong guy to acquire but it’s being shown that the players they traded are not impactful players in the most meaningful games
I've been steadfast in believing last year's Wolves running it back woulda missed the playoffs. What I do think TC's obsession with getting a center was a reaction to Brandon Clarke owning Vando. If it wasn't Gobert it woulda been Capela or someone else.

I've been steadfast (along with many others) that making a move wasn't a bad idea. Only the Wolves went after the wrong player and paid entirely too much for him.

Imagine going after a wing instead... and keeping the Kessler pick. Now granted, nobody really thought Kessler would turn out to be Gobert-like as a rookie. (Heck, I thought he was a wasted pick.) But in hindsight... damn.
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Monster
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Re: West Conference playoff thread

Post by Monster »

Carlos Danger wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 9:23 am
WildWolf2813 wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 5:06 pm
kekgeek wrote: Sun May 21, 2023 11:07 am I think these playoffs sort of show why the wolves didn’t just want to run it back last year. Dlo has been the worst rotation piece of these final 4 teams by far, Beasley out of the rotation, Vando a 10th man on a good team, Pat Bev regressed a lot this year offensively, bolmaro was nothing. Now it seems like the wolves picked the wrong guy to acquire but it’s being shown that the players they traded are not impactful players in the most meaningful games
I've been steadfast in believing last year's Wolves running it back woulda missed the playoffs. What I do think TC's obsession with getting a center was a reaction to Brandon Clarke owning Vando. If it wasn't Gobert it woulda been Capela or someone else.
I think both of you guys make great observations regarding the guys we let go. We all tend to over value our own guys. None of those guys are bad players - they can certainly fill a role on most NBA teams. But all are very replaceable. Had we run it back instead of the Gobert trade, it's very likely we would have been about the same or worse (this year anyway).

TC took a shot. It was a HUGE over pay. And for that, he certainly deserves criticism. But I was and still am fine with him taking a shot to improve the roster. How many wasted years were lost running it back with KG year after year? It's ok to take a shot. It didn't work out. Let's see how TC responds in year 2.

And I'll write it again...the Kessler pick is a big part of what makes the trade look so bad. What are the odds of a draft pick turning into a useful player? Like 1 in 5? How are we all feeling about Wendell Moore Jr. who was literally taken 4 picks after Kessler?

The Jazz hit on that pick. All we can do it tip our hats and move on. But had they taken anyone other than Kessler, we'd all probably be less down on the trade up to this point. Kessler put up 2.1 VORP. The combined VORP of those taken after him is a negative (6.2). Literally every single player taken after him was zero or negative VORP other than one guy (Jaylin William) who was 0.1. Unbelievable.
I’m gonna pushback on the idea that the Jazz picked Kessler. That is all.
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Carlos Danger
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Re: West Conference playoff thread

Post by Carlos Danger »

Monster wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 5:58 pm I’m gonna pushback on the idea that the Jazz picked Kessler. That is all.
I assume the Jazz made the pick, but I don't know if it's ever been disclosed. Either way - the end result is the same. They hit the jackpot. From pick #19 to pick #58 there are only two players with positive VORP:

Kessler with 2.1 VORP and
Williams with 0.1 VORP

My point was what are the friggin' odds that the pick we gave up would hit? Basically 1 in 40 in that sample.
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60WinTim
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Re: West Conference playoff thread

Post by 60WinTim »

Somehow my general perspective on the Wolves season has been lifted with the Lakers being swept. Go Nuggets!
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Q-is-here
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Re: West Conference playoff thread

Post by Q-is-here »

60WinTim wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 10:23 pm Somehow my general perspective on the Wolves season has been lifted with the Lakers being swept. Go Nuggets!
Yeah, we can take some satisfaction with losing to the Western Conference champs I suppose. And we are responsible for one of their three losses during the playoffs!

I upgrade our season from a C to a C+, but that's as far as I'll go!
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Lipoli390
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Re: West Conference playoff thread

Post by Lipoli390 »

Q-is-here wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 10:25 pm
60WinTim wrote: Mon May 22, 2023 10:23 pm Somehow my general perspective on the Wolves season has been lifted with the Lakers being swept. Go Nuggets!
Yeah, we can take some satisfaction with losing to the Western Conference champs I suppose. And we are responsible for one of their three losses during the playoffs!

I upgrade our season from a C to a C+, but that's as far as I'll go!
I’m just happy the Lakers lost. And I take special pleasure in the fact the Lakers were swept.

Denver’s win over the Lakers has no impact on my assessment of the Wolves. Relative to the expectations the Wolves front office obviously set for the Wolves, I can’t give them better than a D. The finished 10 games over .500 the previous season and took the Grizzlies to six games. The acquisition of Gobert coupled with the improvement of Ant and Jaden was supposed to catapult the team to even greater heights. Instead, the finished 3 games over .500 and got knocked out by Denver in 5.

Relative to my own expectations for the Wolves, I’d give them a C because I didn’t expect as much as the Wolves front office obviously did. I think we saw some signs that this Wolves team can be much better next season if KAT and Edwards both stay healthy the whole season.
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