Wolves traded Kat

[DNatagal]

Knicks: Karl-Anthony Towns (from MIN) and the draft rights of James Nnaji (from Charlotte)

Wolves: Julius Randle (from NYK), Donte DiVincenzo (from NYK), Keita Bates-Diop (from NYK) and 2025 top-13 protected Detroit first (via NYK)

Hornets: 2025 2nd (least favorable of Denver or Philly via Minnesota), 2026 (Golden State via NYK), 2031 2nd (from NYK), DaQuan Jeffries (sign-and-trade from NYK), Charlie Brown Jr. (sign-and-trade from NYK), Duane Washington (sign-and-trade from NYK) and $7.2M cash

[WildWolf2813]

Bumping this thread since Christmas is almost here and we can see what we were thinking at the time

[Lipoli390]

I case you haven’t looked at KAT’s per game stats to date this season, here they are:

24.7 points, 13.9 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 0.9 steals, 1.0 blocks, 43.7% FG, 45.6% 3s on 5 attempts, 84% FT on 6 attempts

Those numbers are all close to his career averages except that his rebounds and three-point percentage are up a bit. This is the guy we traded for Randle, DDV and one future pick, which will probably be a 2nd rounder. Meanwhile, KAT’s current Knicks team is 10 games over .500 while the Wolves are one game over and struggling to score points. Our defense has been much better than our offense, but it has been terribly inconsistent. The chemistry this team had last season isn’t there. KAT is now playing his natural position, center, and flourishing at the age of 29.

The KAT deal was a bad trade for the Wolves. But even worse is that fact that it was ultimately the consequence of another bad Wolves trade — i.e., the deal for Gobert. We’re now on pace for a worse record than the season before trading for Gobert and about the same record we ended up with in Rudy’s first season when KAT missed the vast majority of the team’s games. Yet, we have the League’s second highest payroll and a depleted draft cupboard. It looks like we’ll probably have to give away another draft asset or two to entice a team to take Randle off our payroll so we can get below the 2nd apron without losing Naz to free agency.

Meanwhile, it would be interesting to know how much Jaden’s trade value has declined so far this season. Depending on the answer to that question, it may be time to move Jaden.

[Phenom]

I case you haven’t looked at KAT’s per game stats to date this season, here they are:

24.7 points, 13.9 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 0.9 steals, 1.0 blocks, 43.7% FG, 45.6% 3s on 5 attempts, 84% FT on 6 attempts

Those numbers are all close to his career averages except that his rebounds and three-point percentage are up a bit. This is the guy we traded for Randle, DDV and one future pick, which will probably be a 2nd rounder. Meanwhile, KAT’s current Knicks team is 10 games over .500 while the Wolves are one game over and struggling to score points. Our defense has been much better than our offense, but it has been terribly inconsistent. The chemistry this team had last season isn’t there. KAT is now playing his natural position, center, and flourishing at the age of 29.

The KAT deal was a bad trade for the Wolves. But even worse is that fact that it was ultimately the consequence of another bad Wolves trade — i.e., the deal for Gobert. We’re now on pace for a worse record than the season before trading for Gobert and about the same record we ended up with in Rudy’s first season when KAT missed the vast majority of the team’s games. Yet, we have the League’s second highest payroll and a depleted draft cupboard. It looks like we’ll probably have to give away another draft asset or two to entice a team to take Randle off our payroll so we can get below the 2nd apron without losing Naz to free agency.

Meanwhile, it would be interesting to know how much Jaden’s trade value has declined so far this season. Depending on the answer to that question, it may be time to move Jaden.

A lot of this feels like a carbon copy of Rudy's first season. Can Finch pull it all together again?

Also, am I the only one that has a good feeling about the Detroit pick being a first? I think there's a really good chance that happens in the next 3 drafts.

[Wolvesfan21]

I case you haven’t looked at KAT’s per game stats to date this season, here they are:

24.7 points, 13.9 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 0.9 steals, 1.0 blocks, 43.7% FG, 45.6% 3s on 5 attempts, 84% FT on 6 attempts

Those numbers are all close to his career averages except that his rebounds and three-point percentage are up a bit. This is the guy we traded for Randle, DDV and one future pick, which will probably be a 2nd rounder. Meanwhile, KAT’s current Knicks team is 10 games over .500 while the Wolves are one game over and struggling to score points. Our defense has been much better than our offense, but it has been terribly inconsistent. The chemistry this team had last season isn’t there. KAT is now playing his natural position, center, and flourishing at the age of 29.

The KAT deal was a bad trade for the Wolves. But even worse is that fact that it was ultimately the consequence of another bad Wolves trade — i.e., the deal for Gobert. We’re now on pace for a worse record than the season before trading for Gobert and about the same record we ended up with in Rudy’s first season when KAT missed the vast majority of the team’s games. Yet, we have the League’s second highest payroll and a depleted draft cupboard. It looks like we’ll probably have to give away another draft asset or two to entice a team to take Randle off our payroll so we can get below the 2nd apron without losing Naz to free agency.

Meanwhile, it would be interesting to know how much Jaden’s trade value has declined so far this season. Depending on the answer to that question, it may be time to move Jaden.

A lot of this feels like a carbon copy of Rudy's first season. Can Finch pull it all together again?

Also, am I the only one that has a good feeling about the Detroit pick being a first? I think there's a really good chance that happens in the next 3 drafts.

Randle needs a spacing 5 to play with to really optimize him. His numbers are actually pretty dang solid with Naz.

The Randle / Rudy pairing is bad, supremely bad considering they play with Ant most of the time.

If the Rudy Randle pairing doesn't improve quickly, we no doubt need to trade Randle (or Rudy). But trading Rudy is idiotic as he is arguably our most important player.

As to Lip. Just getting rid of KAT's salary was a tough thing to do. KAT has shown enough playoff tape where he

-Fouls way too much

- Fouls out

-Shoots like shit

-Can't defend

-Will never win a chip

[Lipoli390]

I case you haven’t looked at KAT’s per game stats to date this season, here they are:

24.7 points, 13.9 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 0.9 steals, 1.0 blocks, 43.7% FG, 45.6% 3s on 5 attempts, 84% FT on 6 attempts

Those numbers are all close to his career averages except that his rebounds and three-point percentage are up a bit. This is the guy we traded for Randle, DDV and one future pick, which will probably be a 2nd rounder. Meanwhile, KAT’s current Knicks team is 10 games over .500 while the Wolves are one game over and struggling to score points. Our defense has been much better than our offense, but it has been terribly inconsistent. The chemistry this team had last season isn’t there. KAT is now playing his natural position, center, and flourishing at the age of 29.

The KAT deal was a bad trade for the Wolves. But even worse is that fact that it was ultimately the consequence of another bad Wolves trade — i.e., the deal for Gobert. We’re now on pace for a worse record than the season before trading for Gobert and about the same record we ended up with in Rudy’s first season when KAT missed the vast majority of the team’s games. Yet, we have the League’s second highest payroll and a depleted draft cupboard. It looks like we’ll probably have to give away another draft asset or two to entice a team to take Randle off our payroll so we can get below the 2nd apron without losing Naz to free agency.

Meanwhile, it would be interesting to know how much Jaden’s trade value has declined so far this season. Depending on the answer to that question, it may be time to move Jaden.

A lot of this feels like a carbon copy of Rudy's first season. Can Finch pull it all together again?

Also, am I the only one that has a good feeling about the Detroit pick being a first? I think there's a really good chance that happens in the next 3 drafts.

Detroit is doing better than I expected this season. So I’ll have to revise my expectation. The Piston’s are currently tied with two other teams for the 9th/10/11th worst record. If they keep improving year to year, then I think there’s a decent chance the pick will be a first rounder in 2026 (top 11 protected) or 2027 (top 9 protected). I hope we don’t have to give that pick away to trade Randle. The Wolves have no 1st or 2nd round pick in 2027. It would be nice to have a pick in the mid to late 1st round that year.

[kekgeek]

I case you haven’t looked at KAT’s per game stats to date this season, here they are:

24.7 points, 13.9 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 0.9 steals, 1.0 blocks, 43.7% FG, 45.6% 3s on 5 attempts, 84% FT on 6 attempts

Those numbers are all close to his career averages except that his rebounds and three-point percentage are up a bit. This is the guy we traded for Randle, DDV and one future pick, which will probably be a 2nd rounder. Meanwhile, KAT’s current Knicks team is 10 games over .500 while the Wolves are one game over and struggling to score points. Our defense has been much better than our offense, but it has been terribly inconsistent. The chemistry this team had last season isn’t there. KAT is now playing his natural position, center, and flourishing at the age of 29.

The KAT deal was a bad trade for the Wolves. But even worse is that fact that it was ultimately the consequence of another bad Wolves trade — i.e., the deal for Gobert. We’re now on pace for a worse record than the season before trading for Gobert and about the same record we ended up with in Rudy’s first season when KAT missed the vast majority of the team’s games. Yet, we have the League’s second highest payroll and a depleted draft cupboard. It looks like we’ll probably have to give away another draft asset or two to entice a team to take Randle off our payroll so we can get below the 2nd apron without losing Naz to free agency.

Meanwhile, it would be interesting to know how much Jaden’s trade value has declined so far this season. Depending on the answer to that question, it may be time to move Jaden.

A lot of this feels like a carbon copy of Rudy's first season. Can Finch pull it all together again?

Also, am I the only one that has a good feeling about the Detroit pick being a first? I think there's a really good chance that happens in the next 3 drafts.

Randle needs a spacing 5 to play with to really optimize him. His numbers are actually pretty dang solid with Naz.

The Randle / Rudy pairing is bad, supremely bad considering they play with Ant most of the time.

If the Rudy Randle pairing doesn't improve quickly, we no doubt need to trade Randle (or Rudy). But trading Rudy is idiotic as he is arguably our most important player.

As to Lip. Just getting rid of KAT's salary was a tough thing to do. KAT has shown enough playoff tape where he

-Fouls way too much

- Fouls out

-Shoots like shit

-Can't defend

-Will never win a chip

I rarely do this because I hate blaming coaching because I think in general coaching does not matter a ton in the NBA. You get 5 coaches that matter positively 5 coaches that matter negatively and the rest don’t matter at all.

But how much blame should Finch get when it comes to the offense. The last 3 years offensively with Rudy on the court.

This year: 28th percentile
Last year: 54th percentile
2022: 24th percentile

Oh but it’s really hard to build an offense around Rudy because he can’t space the floor and can’t catch, right? But why did the Jazz have no issues.

2021: 82nd percentile
2020: 93rd percentile
2019: 77th percentile

Ya, but the context is different. Rudy and Randle have to play together and that is no spacing. A non spacing center playing with Randle is a recipe for disaster. How could a team have a good offense. Well Randle did play with a carbon copy of a player like Rudy in Mitchell Robinson the last 3 years. No way that offense was good. (Percentile Below are offensive rating with Randle and Mitchell on the court together)

2023: 65th percentile
2022: 94th percentile
2021: 32nd percentile


Why can other coaches develop not just a good but an elite offense with Rudy but Finch can’t even develop an average offense. Why can Fucking Thibs creating an elite offense with Randle and a non spacing big but the offense is shit this year.

Finch was said to be this offensive genius. Wolves have been a terrible offensive team his whole tenure outside of after the all star break in the Pat Bev year (they were bad before the break).


Hate blaming coaches but when does Finch get the blame when other coaches have developed elite offense with similar offensive limited players

[FNG]

I case you haven’t looked at KAT’s per game stats to date this season, here they are:

24.7 points, 13.9 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 0.9 steals, 1.0 blocks, 43.7% FG, 45.6% 3s on 5 attempts, 84% FT on 6 attempts

Those numbers are all close to his career averages except that his rebounds and three-point percentage are up a bit. This is the guy we traded for Randle, DDV and one future pick, which will probably be a 2nd rounder. Meanwhile, KAT’s current Knicks team is 10 games over .500 while the Wolves are one game over and struggling to score points. Our defense has been much better than our offense, but it has been terribly inconsistent. The chemistry this team had last season isn’t there. KAT is now playing his natural position, center, and flourishing at the age of 29.

The KAT deal was a bad trade for the Wolves. But even worse is that fact that it was ultimately the consequence of another bad Wolves trade — i.e., the deal for Gobert. We’re now on pace for a worse record than the season before trading for Gobert and about the same record we ended up with in Rudy’s first season when KAT missed the vast majority of the team’s games. Yet, we have the League’s second highest payroll and a depleted draft cupboard. It looks like we’ll probably have to give away another draft asset or two to entice a team to take Randle off our payroll so we can get below the 2nd apron without losing Naz to free agency.

Meanwhile, it would be interesting to know how much Jaden’s trade value has declined so far this season. Depending on the answer to that question, it may be time to move Jaden.

A lot of this feels like a carbon copy of Rudy's first season. Can Finch pull it all together again?

Also, am I the only one that has a good feeling about the Detroit pick being a first? I think there's a really good chance that happens in the next 3 drafts.

Detroit is doing better than I expected this season. So I’ll have to revise my expectation. The Piston’s are currently tied with two other teams for the 9th/10/11th worst record. If they keep improving year to year, then I think there’s a decent chance the pick will be a first rounder in 2026 (top 11 protected) or 2027 (top 9 protected). I hope we don’t have to give that pick away to trade Randle. The Wolves have no 1st or 2nd round pick in 2027. It would be nice to have a pick in the mid to late 1st round that year.

Yep, I agree with phenom and lip that there's a good chance we are getting a first rounder from Detroit. They have young talent and are playing like a .500 team (5-5 in their last 10 with two wins in a row), so a pick even this year isn't totally out of the question. But if not this year, I see us getting a pick in one of the subsequent years. This is a pleasant turn of events after last year's disastrous season for Detroit.

As for the KAT trade, there's no question that the Knicks are winning it easily right now. That said, I still credit TC with making the right move. Getting two players who averaged almost 40 PPG for a conference finalist plus a first round pick, while also improving an impossible financial situation was brilliant in my opinion. Randle has been typical Randle this year...maddening at times at both ends of the court, but also typically productive...I'm not losing sight of the fact that he has been on triple double watch two games in a row, and indication that he may be fitting in better. But DiVo has been a disaster with his poor shooting. But I would argue that if he were shooting a high volume 40% like last year, we'd be looking at this trade differently...and his 36% in his last 10 games is an indication that he might be progressing to a norm. But he hasn't shot well and Randle has been both a ball stopper and an occasional lazy defender, while KAT is having an all star season on offense. So clearly the Knicks are the current winner, and it's not a close call. But let's see if our conclusions change if Randle keeps flirting with triple doubles, DiVo gets back to his 2023-4 self, and KAT either suffers another injury or does his post-season disappearing act. Add in the Pistons' pick and the cap relief, and I'm still happy with TC.

And I'm enormously happy with TC still on the Rudy trade. Who do you want to be almost three years later...Utah or Minnesota? Utah was three wins better than us prior to the trade. The first year we gained 8 games on them and had 5 more wins than them. And then we gained another 20 wins on them last year and finished 25 wins ahead of them. And while we're all whining about this season, the trend continues...we're a game over .500, and they are 7 and 21...ouch! The players we gave them are mostly out of the league, and those draft picks are helping them about as much as Shannon and Rob are helping us. Let's just say the Ainge star is a little tarnished.

My conclusions: we're going to get a pick from the Pistons, the Knicks are winning the KAT trade, and the Gobert trade was a huge win for us!

[Wolvesfan21]

A lot of this feels like a carbon copy of Rudy's first season. Can Finch pull it all together again?

Also, am I the only one that has a good feeling about the Detroit pick being a first? I think there's a really good chance that happens in the next 3 drafts.

Randle needs a spacing 5 to play with to really optimize him. His numbers are actually pretty dang solid with Naz.

The Randle / Rudy pairing is bad, supremely bad considering they play with Ant most of the time.

If the Rudy Randle pairing doesn't improve quickly, we no doubt need to trade Randle (or Rudy). But trading Rudy is idiotic as he is arguably our most important player.

As to Lip. Just getting rid of KAT's salary was a tough thing to do. KAT has shown enough playoff tape where he

-Fouls way too much

- Fouls out

-Shoots like shit

-Can't defend

-Will never win a chip

I rarely do this because I hate blaming coaching because I think in general coaching does not matter a ton in the NBA. You get 5 coaches that matter positively 5 coaches that matter negatively and the rest don’t matter at all.

But how much blame should Finch get when it comes to the offense. The last 3 years offensively with Rudy on the court.

This year: 28th percentile
Last year: 54th percentile
2022: 24th percentile

Oh but it’s really hard to build an offense around Rudy because he can’t space the floor and can’t shoot, right? But why did the Jazz have no issues.

2021: 82nd percentile
2020: 93rd percentile
2019: 77th percentile

Ya, but the context is different. Rudy and Randle have to play together and that is no spacing. A non spacing center playing with Randle is a recipe for disaster. How could a team have a good offense. Well Randle did play with a carbon copy of a player like Rudy in Mitchell Robinson the last 3 years. No way that offense was good. (Percentile Below are offensive rating with Randle and Mitchell on the court together)

2023: 65th percentile
2022: 94th percentile
2021: 32nd percentile


Why can other coaches develop not just a good but an elite offense with Rudy but Finch can’t even develop an average offense. Why can Fucking Thibs creating an elite offense with Randle and a non spacing big but the offense is shit this year.

Finch was said to be this offensive genius. Wolves have been a terrible offensive team his whole tenure outside of after the all star break in the Pat Bev year (they were bad before the break).


Hate blaming coaches but when does Finch get the blame when other coaches have developed elite offense with similar offensive limited players

Great post. This year has been very bad for Finch and he's acknowledged it also.

Rudy was unlocked with multiple players who could throw the lob and space the floor in Utah. Even Conley has been not on the same page with Rudy for the lob dunk game. Not where it could be. This year Conley has struggled making floaters I think as well. I haven't looked at the stats, just my eye tells me he is not where he could be.

Now we could look at Jaden who is super streaky on the offensive end too. He gets lots of great looks, simply doesn't knock them down at a good enough clip. He's another guy who doesn't thrive on offense.

I think the players are underperforming themselves. Now how much is it simply the players or the coaching. DDV also was crushing it last year. This year so far he is underperforming also. Him driving and trying to dish to Rudy is mostly tough to watch.

I guess all in all I wouldn't be against firing Finch if this season continues to be .500 basketball. We got an expensive payroll and the players are not playing up to or even close to their potential, how much on themselves or the coaching. IDK to be honest.

[FNG]

We have all fairly concluded that there is no question that the Knicks are winning the KAT trade. But there are some green shoots of progress in the last week from the two guys we got back that are giving some indication the debate isn't over yet. Take last night for example:

KAT: 16/6/1

JuVo: 49/12/12

Small sample size? Ha, of course! But JuVo were also 34/13/9 in the previous game compared to KAT's 21/9/2 with 1 for 5 on 3-pointers. Combine this week's results with Detroit's 3-game winning streak that is bringing us closer to getting a mid-teens first round pick in 2025, and the trade is starting to look better. Let's go JuVo and Pistons!