Minnesota Sports Forum

Camden wrote:Hypothetically speaking, let's say that Sabonis by some chance does fall out of the lottery. I don't think that will happen, but let's play with the idea. Danny Ainge and the Boston Celtics have all these first round picks and almost certainly won't come away from the draft with more than two rookies. Actually, it doesn't even have to be Boston, but I named them, so, anyways. You see Sabonis dropping to a reasonable range and you figure it's time to pick up the phone. The other side of that phone call is willing to deal their pick, but the price is one Shabazz Muhammad. Are you making that deal? Because I am.

I like Shabazz and hope the best for him, but give me Sabonis or Poeltl. Bazz's IQ is not where it should be. I could go without ever again seeing grab a rebound or loose ball and turning to shoot/take it to the rim before he even realizes there are 3 open people and 4 guys on him.

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:What are his big holes? His turnover rate I'm guessing. Surrounding him with better talent and coaching could cure that. His handle is pretty solid according to most experts.

I was thinking about this recently, without having done any research, it seems PGs drafted in the top half of the lottery seem to meet expectations at a higher rate than other positions.

Turnover rate is kind of a big deal with PGs and it's not because his team mates can't catch. He's put up similar turnover numbers every year in college, which suggests to me it's more a function of his decision making abilities. The other hole in his game is his shooting efficiency. A 54 TS% as an upperclassmen PG with his athleticism and size is pretty underwhelming. That would be fine if he were 19 years old and still growing into his body, but that's not really the case. I would have expected him to be a much more efficient scorer by now. The fact he hasn't cracked 70% from the line in 4 years of college is somewhat troubling.

All of that being said, the reason I like him is because of defense, steals, rebounding, and his ability in the open floor. I can see him playing off the ball some too given his size.

Completely agree with you here Q, but it's the reason I don't want him for us. Those traits are totally redundant of our current point guard. Not sure he is going to be an upgrade over Tyus who was able to come out after one year. So project Tyus 2 years from now and tell me you know for sure Dunn is going to be the better player.

I know Dunn is going to be the better player. There are some things Tyus just can't do at his physical profile that Dunn can and most of it is on the defensive end. At the end of the day we are talking the best PG prospect in one draft going top 5 versus a guy who saw multiple PG's drafted before him for a reason. I think Tyus is made to be a solid backup PG. I think Dunn has star potential. Creating offense off the dribble is still king in this league and that's what Dunn does. He adds to that a great defensive profile and really his only weakness is his shooting which we have the worst shooting PG of all time so we can only go up there, but if he figures that out he's going to pass Ricky as the starter or at least should. Dunn has some turnover issues, but it's not like he has a horrible assist : turnover ratio. He was still over 2:1 on a team with 1 other offensive option handling most of the load with him. Decision making is correctable. He has his flaws, but I also see the tools for a very good player especially under Thibs. I wouldn't let Tyus be a reason to not take Dunn if he's there.

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:What are his big holes? His turnover rate I'm guessing. Surrounding him with better talent and coaching could cure that. His handle is pretty solid according to most experts.

I was thinking about this recently, without having done any research, it seems PGs drafted in the top half of the lottery seem to meet expectations at a higher rate than other positions.

Turnover rate is kind of a big deal with PGs and it's not because his team mates can't catch. He's put up similar turnover numbers every year in college, which suggests to me it's more a function of his decision making abilities. The other hole in his game is his shooting efficiency. A 54 TS% as an upperclassmen PG with his athleticism and size is pretty underwhelming. That would be fine if he were 19 years old and still growing into his body, but that's not really the case. I would have expected him to be a much more efficient scorer by now. The fact he hasn't cracked 70% from the line in 4 years of college is somewhat troubling.

All of that being said, the reason I like him is because of defense, steals, rebounding, and his ability in the open floor. I can see him playing off the ball some too given his size.

Completely agree with you here Q, but it's the reason I don't want him for us. Those traits are totally redundant of our current point guard. Not sure he is going to be an upgrade over Tyus who was able to come out after one year. So project Tyus 2 years from now and tell me you know for sure Dunn is going to be the better player.

I know Dunn is going to be the better player. There are some things Tyus just can't do at his physical profile that Dunn can and most of it is on the defensive end. At the end of the day we are talking the best PG prospect in one draft going top 5 versus a guy who saw multiple PG's drafted before him for a reason. I think Tyus is made to be a solid backup PG. I think Dunn has star potential. Creating offense off the dribble is still king in this league and that's what Dunn does. He adds to that a great defensive profile and really his only weakness is his shooting which we have the worst shooting PG of all time so we can only go up there, but if he figures that out he's going to pass Ricky as the starter or at least should. Dunn has some turnover issues, but it's not like he has a horrible assist : turnover ratio. He was still over 2:1 on a team with 1 other offensive option handling most of the load with him. Decision making is correctable. He has his flaws, but I also see the tools for a very good player especially under Thibs. I wouldn't let Tyus be a reason to not take Dunn if he's there.

I'm not going to tell you that Tyus will be the better pro. He could be, but that's not my point. My point is while Tyus was leading his team to a national championship as college freshman, Dunn had a hard time getting on the court. Tyus is 19 years old and Dunn is a grown man. I'd like to see Tyus two years from now which is the comparison you would have to make with what Dunn is now.

You fail to point out that Jones played for Duke. A team that strives for the final four every year and has the talent to do so . Providence? Not so much . If Ricky would be better with better talent than wouldn't Dunn as well?

PorkChop wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:What are his big holes? His turnover rate I'm guessing. Surrounding him with better talent and coaching could cure that. His handle is pretty solid according to most experts.

I was thinking about this recently, without having done any research, it seems PGs drafted in the top half of the lottery seem to meet expectations at a higher rate than other positions.

Turnover rate is kind of a big deal with PGs and it's not because his team mates can't catch. He's put up similar turnover numbers every year in college, which suggests to me it's more a function of his decision making abilities. The other hole in his game is his shooting efficiency. A 54 TS% as an upperclassmen PG with his athleticism and size is pretty underwhelming. That would be fine if he were 19 years old and still growing into his body, but that's not really the case. I would have expected him to be a much more efficient scorer by now. The fact he hasn't cracked 70% from the line in 4 years of college is somewhat troubling.

All of that being said, the reason I like him is because of defense, steals, rebounding, and his ability in the open floor. I can see him playing off the ball some too given his size.

Completely agree with you here Q, but it's the reason I don't want him for us. Those traits are totally redundant of our current point guard. Not sure he is going to be an upgrade over Tyus who was able to come out after one year. So project Tyus 2 years from now and tell me you know for sure Dunn is going to be the better player.

I know Dunn is going to be the better player. There are some things Tyus just can't do at his physical profile that Dunn can and most of it is on the defensive end. At the end of the day we are talking the best PG prospect in one draft going top 5 versus a guy who saw multiple PG's drafted before him for a reason. I think Tyus is made to be a solid backup PG. I think Dunn has star potential. Creating offense off the dribble is still king in this league and that's what Dunn does. He adds to that a great defensive profile and really his only weakness is his shooting which we have the worst shooting PG of all time so we can only go up there, but if he figures that out he's going to pass Ricky as the starter or at least should. Dunn has some turnover issues, but it's not like he has a horrible assist : turnover ratio. He was still over 2:1 on a team with 1 other offensive option handling most of the load with him. Decision making is correctable. He has his flaws, but I also see the tools for a very good player especially under Thibs. I wouldn't let Tyus be a reason to not take Dunn if he's there.

khans2k5 wrote:

CoolBreeze44 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

Duke13 wrote:What are his big holes? His turnover rate I'm guessing. Surrounding him with better talent and coaching could cure that. His handle is pretty solid according to most experts.

I was thinking about this recently, without having done any research, it seems PGs drafted in the top half of the lottery seem to meet expectations at a higher rate than other positions.

Turnover rate is kind of a big deal with PGs and it's not because his team mates can't catch. He's put up similar turnover numbers every year in college, which suggests to me it's more a function of his decision making abilities. The other hole in his game is his shooting efficiency. A 54 TS% as an upperclassmen PG with his athleticism and size is pretty underwhelming. That would be fine if he were 19 years old and still growing into his body, but that's not really the case. I would have expected him to be a much more efficient scorer by now. The fact he hasn't cracked 70% from the line in 4 years of college is somewhat troubling.

All of that being said, the reason I like him is because of defense, steals, rebounding, and his ability in the open floor. I can see him playing off the ball some too given his size.

Completely agree with you here Q, but it's the reason I don't want him for us. Those traits are totally redundant of our current point guard. Not sure he is going to be an upgrade over Tyus who was able to come out after one year. So project Tyus 2 years from now and tell me you know for sure Dunn is going to be the better player.

I know Dunn is going to be the better player. There are some things Tyus just can't do at his physical profile that Dunn can and most of it is on the defensive end. At the end of the day we are talking the best PG prospect in one draft going top 5 versus a guy who saw multiple PG's drafted before him for a reason. I think Tyus is made to be a solid backup PG. I think Dunn has star potential. Creating offense off the dribble is still king in this league and that's what Dunn does. He adds to that a great defensive profile and really his only weakness is his shooting which we have the worst shooting PG of all time so we can only go up there, but if he figures that out he's going to pass Ricky as the starter or at least should. Dunn has some turnover issues, but it's not like he has a horrible assist : turnover ratio. He was still over 2:1 on a team with 1 other offensive option handling most of the load with him. Decision making is correctable. He has his flaws, but I also see the tools for a very good player especially under Thibs. I wouldn't let Tyus be a reason to not take Dunn if he's there.

I'm not going to tell you that Tyus will be the better pro. He could be, but that's not my point. My point is while Tyus was leading his team to a national championship as college freshman, Dunn had a hard time getting on the court. Tyus is 19 years old and Dunn is a grown man. I'd like to see Tyus two years from now which is the comparison you would have to make with what Dunn is now.

You fail to point out that Jones played for Duke. A team that strives for the final four every year and has the talent to do so . Providence? Not so much . If Ricky would be better with better talent than wouldn't Dunn as well?

I get your point but it goes both ways. Tyus had the talent to start on a national championship team as a freshman while Dunn wasn't playing much on a not so good team as a freshman

What about Sabonis is so intriguing? I think he's an above average rebounder but why are some talking lottery range?

lipoli390 wrote:Would I trade Bazz for the rights to Sabonis or Poeltl. Yes. But there aren't many others out of the top 10 I'd consider in exchange for Bazz. Maybe Thon Maker. He's a development project, but I think he's going to become an all-star caliber player.

I honestly have no interest in Thon Maker. He's, at the very least, 3 years away from contributing. I think we see 7 feet tall and the ability to handle the ball and we get excited. I'm just not buying the hype.

Mr. Brightside wrote:What about Sabonis is so intriguing? I think he's an above average rebounder but why are some talking lottery range?

His floor seems pretty high but still has potential. His defense is smart and he has a nice looking shot. It looks like it's possible he could even extend out to 3 point range. He just looks like a guy that's gonna bang down low help on the boards pass the ball and just be a guy that can help your team in a lot of ways. He is my favorite player in the draft. He isn't the most talented player but he is my favorite similar to when I wanted Dieng a few years ago.

I would do Shabazz for Sabonis. If we could get Sabonis and Hield out of draft I would be delighted.

I think a lot of this is I am not sure I would spend much to resign Shabazz when he is due for a contract.

Mr. Brightside wrote:What about Sabonis is so intriguing? I think he's an above average rebounder but why are some talking lottery range?

I'll start off answering you with my own question. What guys slated to go in the 7-14 range intrigue you more than Sabonis?

Now, to answer about why I am high on Sabonis. First off, saying he's an above average rebounder is just not true considering he ranked 4th in the whole NCAA in total rebounds (2nd in defensive rebounds). In fact, in the whole NCAA he ranked 9th in 2pt FG%, 7th in defensive win shares, 8th in total win shares, and 17th in player efficiency rating. Outside of rebounding, Sabonis brings a lot to the table. Yes, he played in the WCC, but was in the top 5 for the WCC in nearly every advanced stat category, and maintained or even improved on those numbers vs. other competition. See the Gonzaga vs Utah NCAA matchup, where Sabonis dominated Poeltl, who will go top 10, to the tune of allowing him only 5 shots total and 4 rebounds. Sabonis isn't an athlete, but has a NBA ready body at 240 lbs, and a very high basketball IQ. The rebounds do not come by being a better athlete than everybody, he finds a man to put a body on and secures space. Sabonis is not going to rim protect, he's going to stay on his feet on fakes and maintain good position. His offensive game is advanced in the post, and shows potential to find range on his jumpshot. Sabonis may not have the same amount of all-star potential like some other players in the 7-14 range, but his bust range is significantly lower than all of them, in my opinion.

TheFuture wrote:

Mr. Brightside wrote:What about Sabonis is so intriguing? I think he's an above average rebounder but why are some talking lottery range?

I'll start off answering you with my own question. What guys slated to go in the 7-14 range intrigue you more than Sabonis?

Now, to answer about why I am high on Sabonis. First off, saying he's an above average rebounder is just not true considering he ranked 4th in the whole NCAA in total rebounds (2nd in defensive rebounds). In fact, in the whole NCAA he ranked 9th in 2pt FG%, 7th in defensive win shares, 8th in total win shares, and 17th in player efficiency rating. Outside of rebounding, Sabonis brings a lot to the table. Yes, he played in the WCC, but was in the top 5 for the WCC in nearly every advanced stat category, and maintained or even improved on those numbers vs. other competition. See the Gonzaga vs Utah NCAA matchup, where Sabonis dominated Poeltl, who will go top 10, to the tune of allowing him only 5 shots total and 4 rebounds. Sabonis isn't an athlete, but has a NBA ready body at 240 lbs, and a very high basketball IQ. The rebounds do not come by being a better athlete than everybody, he finds a man to put a body on and secures space. Sabonis is not going to rim protect, he's going to stay on his feet on fakes and maintain good position. His offensive game is advanced in the post, and shows potential to find range on his jumpshot. Sabonis may not have the same amount of all-star potential like some other players in the 7-14 range, but his bust range is significantly lower than all of them, in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong. I think Sabonis is a good player. I just see him more of a role player at the next level.

I like Skal Labissiere, Wade Baldwin, Timothe Luwawu, and Deyonta Davis in the 7-14 range.

Question what is the big difference between Ellenson and Sabonis.