Minnesota Sports Forum

Sorry about bringing up Thibs again, Im just frustrated. Looking like it will be at least 2025 until we see our next playoff appearance and seeing Thibs off to a hot start with the Knicks just frustrated me because of Wolves are ok with being bad year after year after year.

Thibs took the most talented young roster in the NBA (his words and those were agreed by others). Dismantled it so he could win now and snuck into the playoffs by 1 game. Those are the facts. He destroyed the roster by becoming the Minnesota Bulls and ended up still failing. (sneaking into the playoffs and then having Butler blow the team up isn't success by any measure)

So he is considered the worst by all metrics. Had the most to work with, yet did nothing with it but fail.

Apparently, WolvesFan believes Andrew Wiggins was a superstar player.

LMAO.

WolvesFan21 wrote:Thibs took the most talented young roster in the NBA (his words and those were agreed by others). Dismantled it so he could win now and snuck into the playoffs by 1 game. Those are the facts. He destroyed the roster by becoming the Minnesota Bulls and ended up still failing. (sneaking into the playoffs and then having Butler blow the team up isn't success by any measure)

So he is considered the worst by all metrics. Had the most to work with, yet did nothing with it but fail.

No, in hindsight, he didn't have the most to work with. The facts are that LaVine has yet to play on a winning squad or post a positive net rating in his entire career. Wiggins never got much better than what we saw him as a rookie, so we had to trade him for fellow chronic underachiever in DLO. And KAT, while certainly a plus player, has struggled mightily on defense. Those three were going to just keep on losing together while eventually locking the franchise into three huge contracts.

kekgeek1 wrote:Sorry about bringing up Thibs again, Im just frustrated. Looking like it will be at least 2025 until we see our next playoff appearance and seeing Thibs off to a hot start with the Knicks just frustrated me because of Wolves are ok with being bad year after year after year.

Doesn't bother me. Even though I tend to take a pessimistic view, I am fully capable of making excuses and finding some silver linings - some of them legitimate in my opinion.

- Our best player by far has been hurt. We looked pretty good in the games he played in and he wasn't even shooting it all that well.

- Our best (or second best depending on how you view Culver) defender is hurt.

- We are actually very young, with guys like Edwards, Naz Reid, and Culver getting significant minutes.

- DLO won't play this badly all year.

- Malik Beasley looks like a legit NBA starting SG. Not an all-star, but average starting SG. We've had like two of those in the entire franchise history I think, LOL.

- Reid, McDaniels, Edwards, Nowell, and Vanderbilt are 2nd and 3rd tier guys on the roster that all have the potential to be starting-level NBA players at some point. May be one or two of these guys pops eventually for us.

Feel better now? Well, neither do I....

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Thibs can be really old-school with his barking, reliance on a short rotation, and heavy minutes for guys, but he can also be a bit of a paradox. For someone that has a reputation for old-style defense, he also has a soft spot for no-defense shot creators like Jamaal Crawford. He much preferred Jeff Teague over Ricky Rubio, even though I'd argue that ultimately was not an upgrade. And he would NEVER bench Wiggins or KAT for defensive lapses. He would hold others to a standard that he didn't enforce at all with them.

So I actually think Thibs is a bit more complicated and contradictory to the old-school caricature we often paint of him. May be he did this for very pragmatic reasons. Regardless, at the end of the day, he tends to leave places worse off than they were before. That says a lot.

Thibs career coaching record: 356-249 (.588) He has made the playoffs 6 of the 7 years he has finished the year as the coach

Teams records after Thibs 195-317 (.380) 1 playoff appearance where the bulls went 41-41 as the 8 seed while they have missed the playoffs the other 5 seasons. The Wolves had a bottom 5 record in the 1 full season after he was fired and is on his way their again.

I wouldn't appreciate Thibs as much as I do if the Wolves weren't the worst franchise ever. Thibs is turning around another terrible team and winning games with a journey man PG (Payton), late 1st PG (Quigley), A high pick who was super ineffective last year (barrett), busts in (knox and franky smokes) cast offs in (burks and bullock), a raw center (Robinson) and a guy who has been on 3 different teams, considered a good stats bad team guy and who is considered terrible on defense who is now playing All NBA level in Randle.

While the wolves are praying the can get lotto luck once again to get a top 3 pick and continue the losing culture.

I'm just a frustrated Wolves fan and sick of being ok with all this losing

I hear you. And it was nice to actually field a competitive team that went to the playoffs FINALLY a couple years ago. But what he's demonstrated as a coach and GM is that he leaves the team worse than before.

But yeah, if you are looking to squeeze as many wins as possible out of a less-than-ideal roster, he's the guy to do it. I'd put Scott Skiles in a similar category before he wore out his welcome as an NBA head coach. Bill Musselman too many be?

Once again I still don't think we were in that shitty of a spot once Thibs left (Yes I am using hindsight what I don't love doing.) Still had an All NBA player in Kat, a guy paid like the max in Wiggins (Obviously Wiggins didn't pan out but he was going to get the max). He gave up 0 future draft picks, he had contracts that would of given the Wolves cap flexibility going forward. Butler and Gibson would of came off the books that offseason and Teague the next so the Wolves would of had a ton of cap space to work with for trades and signings (obviously we are Minnesota so what free agent signings would come here). He was not involved with the Jimmy trade but the Jimmy trade turned out to be Jimmy Butler, Cam Johnson and Patton for Rubio, Beasley, Hernangomez, Balmero and Mcdaniels (What is not a good return at the moment for an All NBA player).

Thibs in his time legit traded 3 legit assets at the time they were traded. He traded Lavine, Markannan and Dunn for Butler and the pick that became Patton. Do you think Lavine, Markannan and Dunn could be traded for a player even close to Butler ability now. He might of sold high on those 3.

Is it Thibs fault that Layden and Taylor traded Butler for not a good offer, Im being serious here would you of rather had one hell season with Jimmy where maybe he tries maybe he dosen't and let him walk and have the cap space flexibility going forward or would you rather have Rubio, Beasley, Hernangomez, Balmero and McDaniels and be capped out going forward. Also Thibs found a diamond in the rough in Drose who could be traded for a 1st this year but we let him walk after his time.

In the end Thibs got everything out of the roster that he could. He left the Wolves with 2 max players 1 who deserved it and one who didn't, expiring contracts in Butler and Gibson, where Butler was a legit trade asset. Also a future expiring in Teague, he also kept every single draft pick going forward. We are more capped out now with a worse roster, coach, contracts then we ever were under Thibs. At the end of the day Thibs is a dick and was going to get fired but I push back on the fact that Thibs left the assets dry, its not his fault we screwed up how to use the assets he had left.

kekgeek1 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Thibs can be really old-school with his barking, reliance on a short rotation, and heavy minutes for guys, but he can also be a bit of a paradox. For someone that has a reputation for old-style defense, he also has a soft spot for no-defense shot creators like Jamaal Crawford. He much preferred Jeff Teague over Ricky Rubio, even though I'd argue that ultimately was not an upgrade. And he would NEVER bench Wiggins or KAT for defensive lapses. He would hold others to a standard that he didn't enforce at all with them.

So I actually think Thibs is a bit more complicated and contradictory to the old-school caricature we often paint of him. May be he did this for very pragmatic reasons. Regardless, at the end of the day, he tends to leave places worse off than they were before. That says a lot.

Thibs career coaching record: 356-249 (.588) He has made the playoffs 6 of the 7 years he has finished the year as the coach

Teams records after Thibs 195-317 (.380) 1 playoff appearance where the bulls went 41-41 as the 8 seed while they have missed the playoffs the other 5 seasons. The Wolves had a bottom 5 record in the 1 full season after he was fired and is on his way their again.

I wouldn't appreciate Thibs as much as I do if the Wolves weren't the worst franchise ever. Thibs is turning around another terrible team and winning games with a journey man PG (Payton), late 1st PG (Quigley), A high pick who was super ineffective last year (barrett), busts in (knox and franky smokes) cast offs in (burks and bullock), a raw center (Robinson) and a guy who has been on 3 different teams, considered a good stats bad team guy and who is considered terrible on defense who is now playing All NBA level in Randle.

While the wolves are praying the can get lotto luck once again to get a top 3 pick and continue the losing culture.

I'm just a frustrated Wolves fan and sick of being ok with all this losing

I hear you. And it was nice to actually field a competitive team that went to the playoffs FINALLY a couple years ago. But what he's demonstrated as a coach and GM is that he leaves the team worse than before.

But yeah, if you are looking to squeeze as many wins as possible out of a less-than-ideal roster, he's the guy to do it. I'd put Scott Skiles in a similar category before he wore out his welcome as an NBA head coach. Bill Musselman too many be?

Once again I still don't think we were in that shitty of a spot once Thibs left ...

In the end Thibs got everything out of the roster that he could. He left the Wolves with 2 max players 1 who deserved it and one who didn't, expiring contracts in Butler and Gibson, where Butler was a legit trade asset. Also a future expiring in Teague, he also kept every single draft pick going forward. We are more capped out now with a worse roster, coach, contracts then we ever were under Thibs. At the end of the day Thibs is a dick and was going to get fired but I push back on the fact that Thibs left the assets dry, its not his fault we screwed up how to use the assets he had left.

Yep. Agree entirely.

I'm not entirely sure how this Thibs ruined the Wolves narrative started or how it has had so much legs.

Ideal? Nope. But how many other organizations get an All NBA player without giving up a future lottery pick or even a healthy "plus" player?

It's a bit simplistic (and kek offered more nuggets) but the entire pre-Thibs and post-Thibs discussion comes down to one player -- Andrew Wiggins. He simply wasn't as good as we all thought. And that's shaped our opinions of this organization.

Sadly, Wiggins' best days are probably ahead of him, too. I don't think I'm alone in thinking a new franchise and new expectations may help him.

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:Sorry about bringing up Thibs again, Im just frustrated. Looking like it will be at least 2025 until we see our next playoff appearance and seeing Thibs off to a hot start with the Knicks just frustrated me because of Wolves are ok with being bad year after year after year.

Doesn't bother me. Even though I tend to take a pessimistic view, I am fully capable of making excuses and finding some silver linings - some of them legitimate in my opinion.

- Our best player by far has been hurt. We looked pretty good in the games he played in and he wasn't even shooting it all that well.

- Our best (or second best depending on how you view Culver) defender is hurt.

- We are actually very young, with guys like Edwards, Naz Reid, and Culver getting significant minutes.

- DLO won't play this badly all year.

- Malik Beasley looks like a legit NBA starting SG. Not an all-star, but average starting SG. We've had like two of those in the entire franchise history I think, LOL.

- Reid, McDaniels, Edwards, Nowell, and Vanderbilt are 2nd and 3rd tier guys on the roster that all have the potential to be starting-level NBA players at some point. May be one or two of these guys pops eventually for us.

Feel better now? Well, neither do I....

Haha, no I do not but thanks for trying Q, ahaha. I haven't been on the Rosas is the next David Kahn boat like some have. I think he might suck but I think its just unfair to judge him until we see Kat and Dlo play together, I mean he is 2-1 when those 2 play together.

Tom Thibodeau will always be a polarizing topic for NBA fans...heck, I argue with myself sometimes! Case in point: Thibs' teams seem to do worse after he leaves...is that because he is a better coach than his successor, or because he sucks the life out of a franchise. I was somewhat excited when we hired him because of his success with the Bulls and defensive reputation. And although it turned out badly (and I don't know whom to blame for the disaster) I was way on board with his trade that brought us Butler in exchange for guys I wasn't high on. But my opinion on him soured over the months he was coaching us, and going to games (or even watching them on TV) just wasn't as fun during the Thibs era. I have to admit I wasn't unhappy when he was let go.

But despite that, I am cheering for him to succeed in NY (although ultimately I don't think he will). I never met him and sense he alienated a lot of people within the Wolves' organization, but most people describe him as a good guy. I wish him well in NYC.

kekgeek1 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:

kekgeek1 wrote:

Q12543 wrote:Thibs can be really old-school with his barking, reliance on a short rotation, and heavy minutes for guys, but he can also be a bit of a paradox. For someone that has a reputation for old-style defense, he also has a soft spot for no-defense shot creators like Jamaal Crawford. He much preferred Jeff Teague over Ricky Rubio, even though I'd argue that ultimately was not an upgrade. And he would NEVER bench Wiggins or KAT for defensive lapses. He would hold others to a standard that he didn't enforce at all with them.

So I actually think Thibs is a bit more complicated and contradictory to the old-school caricature we often paint of him. May be he did this for very pragmatic reasons. Regardless, at the end of the day, he tends to leave places worse off than they were before. That says a lot.

Thibs career coaching record: 356-249 (.588) He has made the playoffs 6 of the 7 years he has finished the year as the coach

Teams records after Thibs 195-317 (.380) 1 playoff appearance where the bulls went 41-41 as the 8 seed while they have missed the playoffs the other 5 seasons. The Wolves had a bottom 5 record in the 1 full season after he was fired and is on his way their again.

I wouldn't appreciate Thibs as much as I do if the Wolves weren't the worst franchise ever. Thibs is turning around another terrible team and winning games with a journey man PG (Payton), late 1st PG (Quigley), A high pick who was super ineffective last year (barrett), busts in (knox and franky smokes) cast offs in (burks and bullock), a raw center (Robinson) and a guy who has been on 3 different teams, considered a good stats bad team guy and who is considered terrible on defense who is now playing All NBA level in Randle.

While the wolves are praying the can get lotto luck once again to get a top 3 pick and continue the losing culture.

I'm just a frustrated Wolves fan and sick of being ok with all this losing

I hear you. And it was nice to actually field a competitive team that went to the playoffs FINALLY a couple years ago. But what he's demonstrated as a coach and GM is that he leaves the team worse than before.

But yeah, if you are looking to squeeze as many wins as possible out of a less-than-ideal roster, he's the guy to do it. I'd put Scott Skiles in a similar category before he wore out his welcome as an NBA head coach. Bill Musselman too many be?

Once again I still don't think we were in that shitty of a spot once Thibs left (Yes I am using hindsight what I don't love doing.) Still had an All NBA player in Kat, a guy paid like the max in Wiggins (Obviously Wiggins didn't pan out but he was going to get the max). He gave up 0 future draft picks, he had contracts that would of given the Wolves cap flexibility going forward. Butler and Gibson would of came off the books that offseason and Teague the next so the Wolves would of had a ton of cap space to work with for trades and signings (obviously we are Minnesota so what free agent signings would come here). He was not involved with the Jimmy trade but the Jimmy trade turned out to be Jimmy Butler, Cam Johnson and Patton for Rubio, Beasley, Hernangomez, Balmero and Mcdaniels (What is not a good return at the moment for an All NBA player).

Thibs in his time legit traded 3 legit assets at the time they were traded. He traded Lavine, Markannan and Dunn for Butler and the pick that became Patton. Do you think Lavine, Markannan and Dunn could be traded for a player even close to Butler ability now. He might of sold high on those 3.

Is it Thibs fault that Layden and Taylor traded Butler for not a good offer, Im being serious here would you of rather had one hell season with Jimmy where maybe he tries maybe he dosen't and let him walk and have the cap space flexibility going forward or would you rather have Rubio, Beasley, Hernangomez, Balmero and McDaniels and be capped out going forward. Also Thibs found a diamond in the rough in Drose who could be traded for a 1st this year but we let him walk after his time.

In the end Thibs got everything out of the roster that he could. He left the Wolves with 2 max players 1 who deserved it and one who didn't, expiring contracts in Butler and Gibson, where Butler was a legit trade asset. Also a future expiring in Teague, he also kept every single draft pick going forward. We are more capped out now with a worse roster, coach, contracts then we ever were under Thibs. At the end of the day Thibs is a dick and was going to get fired but I push back on the fact that Thibs left the assets dry, its not his fault we screwed up how to use the assets he had left.

Well, I'm not suggesting Thibs inherited this awesome team to begin with, as we all learned over time that KAT/Wiggins/LaVine really weren't all that great.

But at the end of the day, the two franchises he coached and/or POBO'ed did do worse after he left. Period. I don't think that reflects well on him. Had he drafted better as the Wolves POBO or not signed Wiggins to a max deal, may be things would have been set up even better for Rosas.